I'm not commenting on your intelligence, just that if you'd asked me to guess a list of right wing whataboutisms, you've come out with most of them in this thread.
LGBT issues in Football
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
I never knew that Angela Merkel is so LGBT friendly.
It's good mate. Otherwise this thread would have an insight of a sweaty sock.
Just to say that WIjnaldum announced that he will have a diversity & inclusion message on his captain's band during the next match of the Netherlands, which is in Budapest.
What's the lecture that you're unhappy to receive?
If you have a brain why all the whataboutisms?
As a member of the LGBTQ+ community it’s pretty disheartening to see UEFA’s response, along with some of the posts in here. Long way to go until we feel welcome.
Maybe because I can see past one spectrum? Or do not divide people on far-right and braindead lefts?
Who is doing that?
It has nothing to do with Merkel. If I remember she even voted against same sex marriage a few years ago.
This movement started on German Twitter and the mayor of munich decided to officially approach the Uefa.
Nobody, unfortunately. Unless you mean who isn't doing that. Then pretty much eveyrone on here. Anyway, don't we have football to dicuss now?
Ahh ok this is a political thread placed in a football forum so I guess I'll look for a genuine football talk here, in a different one.
I don't think you understand what whataboutism is. It's a fallacy on an argument which means it's flawed.
I thought UEFAs decision was very disappointing. I don't see how they can be against what the German were proposing and allow taking a knee - just using this as an example, I'm in favour of it before somebody accuses me otherwise.
UEFA and FIFAs "neutrality" when politics and football intersect is just an excuse to do nothing and has justified their barely doing anything about important issues for years.
UEFA and FIFAs "neutrality" when politics and football intersect is just an excuse to do nothing and has justified their barely doing anything about important issues for years.
Of course it will have been flawed if it isn't argument solidifying your point. Seriously guys keep rambling the same one-sided arguments so it makes you feel better. Don't want to be rude but there's no point talking
We've got a decent tournament these days, can't we enjoy it without the politics? There is a general thread for this (full of drivel anyway). Good night.
I'm a practising Muslim and hold traditional beliefs about the LGBQT lifestyle being sinful. That is my personal belief.
I do not believe for a second that any LGBQT person should be discriminated against for thier sexuality/lifestyle.
The rainbow flag is a symbol for LGBQT rights. Why is UEFA prohibiting a club from putting that flag on a stadium. The rights of humans is not a political matter.
What does it say about UEFA that they made this decision? I hope Bayern do it anyway.
I do not believe for a second that any LGBQT person should be discriminated against for thier sexuality/lifestyle.
The rainbow flag is a symbol for LGBQT rights. Why is UEFA prohibiting a club from putting that flag on a stadium. The rights of humans is not a political matter.
What does it say about UEFA that they made this decision? I hope Bayern do it anyway.
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I wonder why do they want everyone to know about their sexual orientation. How about those who prefer bestiality?
Who's 'they'?
I'm a practising atheist and hold traditional beliefs about muslim lifestyle being stupid and disgusting. That is my personal belief.
I do not believe for a second that any muslim person should be discriminated against for their lifestyle.
Are you able to see a conflict between those two sentences?
I obviously support gay rights, but i also kind of understand uefa. What if Hungary, in response, displays a dubious bible verse on their stadium in the next game to "show their support for the traditional family"? Slippery slope.
I would much rather see Uefa and Fifa grow a pair and make non-discrimination a policy. Beyond corny little videos. So no tournaments in places like Qatar, lifetime bans for obnoxious fans, actual investments in charities, etc.
I would much rather see Uefa and Fifa grow a pair and make non-discrimination a policy. Beyond corny little videos. So no tournaments in places like Qatar, lifetime bans for obnoxious fans, actual investments in charities, etc.
It's probably not a place to discuss this, but surely you can see than any organised religion castigating one section of society as 'sinful' is pretty much the definition of discrimination?
Discrimination: " the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, sex, or disability."
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Yea, that's exactly what I meant and I think it's extremely obvious to be honest. It's hard for me to comprehend the hypocrisy of "religious" people in this context. That's very sinful to me, as a practicing atheist.
Regarding the main topic, I have to say, UEFA declining the mayor's approach is very positive for the LGBT community. The discussion is much more active and many clubs/institutions show their solidarity, which otherwise wouldn't have been as strong a response as it is now.
The key word here is "treatment", not "belief".
Believing someone lives a "sinful life" is not the same as actively discriminating. You can hold whatever personal belief you want in privacy as long as your actions aren't discriminatory. I see no reason to attack a user that proclaims to have a certain faith while he also declares that despite his personal faith every person should have the same rights and chances. What he believes about the afterlife doesn't necessarily mean that his actions in and views about this life aren't perfectly acceptable.
Granted, there's a lot of religious people who do discriminate others. I don't think @Zlatattack is one of them.
Stating and living by it, is, though. Obviously discriminating. Talking is an action, saying something is "sinful" is obviously discrimination.
Besides, I didn't attack anybody judging by your understanding of the situation. Can't have a cake and eat it too.
I do sort of understand UEFAs position in not getting involved in anything with political undertones. I'd even give them the benefit of the doubt if it weren't for their past actions.
I do think rainbow flags etc in football are a bit of a waste of time, as long as no players dare to come out. People will only start to change their minds when one of their favourite players turns out to be gay.
I do think rainbow flags etc in football are a bit of a waste of time, as long as no players dare to come out. People will only start to change their minds when one of their favourite players turns out to be gay.
It'd be discriminatory if I treated people any differently. If i hold those views privately and don't treat anyone negatively because of those views, it's not discriminatory. If you think my faith is stupid, or the whole concept of faith is stupid, or whatever - as long as you don't treat me or other people of faith badly because of what you think, what does it matter? All over the world there are people who think their God or their approach to God is the right one, people who think there is no such thing. On the whole they get along because they keep their views to themselves and don't mistreat each other because of said views.
Most people on this forum don't like Liverpool, but most people on this forum would never really treat someone from Liverpool negatively simply because they are from that city, or support that club. Anyone who does is a dick.
My point was that UEFA are politicising something that isn't political, and I think they're discriminating in doing it. If something horrible happened in a country somewhere and organisers wanted to project a flag in solidarity with the victims, they wouldn't have a problem. This flag is in solidarity with those discriminated against because of their sexuality. In my opinion anyway.
it could hurt their bank accounts if they‘d do the just things. That‘s my sort of understanding the issue. Being anti racism is much more accepted, hence the UEFA campaigns for it, ist won’t mean less money.
They are very happy to get involved as long as there's no risk for them. They'll drape themselves in a rainbow flag one day and drop it the next, and they'll do it again and again until people treat everything they spout as what it is: propaganda (or PR as we now call it).
Nothing about this should shock anyone. Uefa is a corporation, a brand, and a big one at that. It will do everything and anything that they think will help fill their coffers while keeping their hands clean. Corporations don't believe in anything, no matter how many zeitgeisty tweets they put out. They hold no views but one: We need to raise our profit.
Those two sentences don't conflict. He was perfectly respectful.
Ultimately, people have beliefs that I disagree with, including that being gay is sinful. I don't believe it is. But I can see how someone who is a Muslim or Christian might. If they treat gay people respectfully and afford them the same rights as anyone else, who are you to police their thoughts on the matter ?
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, so please don't consider this a personal attack or even an attack on religion, but to consider someone's lifestyle as sinful, and say as much, is to discriminate. You don't have to call someone a name or use a slur, or go to the extremes of attending anti-gay rallies or committing a hate crime to discriminate.
UEFA are appeasing the fascists in Hungary. It's disgusting. I'm surprised that the democratically elected Mayor of Munchen allowed himself to be over ruled by a football organisation.
UEFA can't allow equality campaigns for 1 discriminated group and then not another.
The BLM taking a knee protest is political as it's about fighting for equality against systemic racism.
It's honestly getting so hard to watch top flight football and international football. It's fine when you're a kid. But as an adult and being aware of the corruption and shysters that run the game it really is stomach turning.
Brilliantly put!
This is simply not true. I think eating meat is sinful. Does that mean I discriminate against people who aren't vegan? Doesn't make any sense.
As long as you treat others like you expect to be treated, you can believe whatever you like
Do you think less of people who eat meat?
Like if you met someone you fancied, but they wanted to eat meat at a restaurant on a date with you, would you think twice?
If privately disagreeing with how someone lives their life is considered discrimination, then I feel the act of discrimination will never be abolished. I would agree with @Zlatattack in the opinion that two individuals can live their lives in different manners, be it religious, ethical or sexual but still be able to treat each other accordingly and respectfully.
Yes as a gay man it's difficult to see UEFA's capitulation.
They're a lousy bunch of cnuts who only care about money.
They don't give a shit about any of the equality messages they spout. They've done nothing to combat racism in the game - just look at how clubs and nations get a fined a couple of grand for racism.
UEFA don't want to knee before games, they had no choice because world events overran them.
The same will need to happen with LGBTQ rights too. Events outside of the game will have to overrun UEFA because change won't come from within that organisation.
Would you say he was respectful, if he didn’t have religion as a perfect excuse? If an atheist says/thinks gays live in sin he would be calles homophobic. When he questions anything about trans rights, he is called transphobic. If a religious person dies the same it’s perfectly fine because we have to respect beliefs. Honestly I’m not sure how liberals can support religious and gay paople at the same time while one group discriminates the other.
I agree with that too. We just disagree on whether discrimination neccessatates acting on your beliefs or just believing your beliefs.
Being Vegan is a choice. Being gay isn't.
Also research subconscious bias.
Also using religion in 2021 as a justification to hold a negative view on other people is really weak. But if you want to go the religious 'sin' route - only God can judge not you, that's what the bible says - and the bible doesn't actually say shit about homosexuality.