Barcelona: Charged with corruption .... again!

Ok so I'm heading out but Ill just leave this very quick bulletpoint here:

1) Messi's contract is NOT the reason for Barcelonas financial issues.
2) Barcelonas kit contract had increased value over the exposure and shirt sales Messi generates. (for the sponsor, NOT Barcelona). Through this alone he's earned his contract. The estimated revenue Leo Messo himself generates for Barcelona over a fiscal year is in the region of £200 million.
3) Barcelona were in an excellent financial situation after selling Neymar for £200 million. AFTER that they started the worst spending spree in history with the purchase of Dembele €130m, Griezman €120m, €145m, Frenkie de Jong €85m, Clement Lenglet €35m. That is such an absolutely WILD sum over such a short timeperiod.
4) All Barcelona players took a 70% paycut during covid.
5) And this is the important one: La Liga has a salary cap that is given a value for each team that encompasses cost, debt, revenue. Because of covid, everyons revenue is down significantly, whereas the debt has remained the same. This is why La Ligas salary cap is shrinking. Real Madrid have a higher ceiling than Barcelona because Barcelona is very simply put: A victim of their own overzealous transfer strategy of paying all the money, without considering a rainy day.

The club has spent money they can't afford to carry, in a environment where the club can't compete if it doesnt adhere to a set of rules directly linked with it's debt and revenue.

You're all blaming an apple of making a mess in an orchard.

ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:

just for clarity, I assume therefore that Rakuten’s sponsorship is double that of any other club that doesn’t have Messi playing for them?

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Our old deal with Chevrolet was worth considerably more.

Has to be the Phil Jones factor, I reckon.

Barca are a shadow of the club they used to be. Previously it was a club most could collectively respect, based on their commitment to promoting players from their academy. Instead they’ve taken a short term approach and are paying for it now. Maybe cleansing the club of overrated and overpaid stars, and starting from scratch is the way to go.

But why did they sign new players, if they knew they weren't gonna be able to register them?

Chesterlestreet said:

Our old deal with Chevrolet was worth considerably more.

Has to be the Phil Jones factor, I reckon.

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That or Lee Grant

Womp said:

He tried leaving, they didn't let him. So that's very clearly not an option. By most reports, they will live or die by him. Just think losing him would be too big a commercial hit for a club that's already extremely fecked financially

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This, incredible people still insisting it's his fault.

Good.

Adisa said:

This whole episode raises a wider discussion of how clubs should be run. Barcelona are a 100% fan owned club and imo, that mentality has contributed to this debacle. There is a balance between Arsenal on one end and Barcelona on the other and I think us fans should be wary of falling into the trap Barcelona has. Imo, a club is first and foremost a going concern business. Barca's ownership model has led to politics which inevitably leads to bad decisions. Fans should be careful what they wish for. Any sound businessman would have sold Messi a couple of years ago.

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Maybe not about Messi, but a sound businessman would have not bought Coutinho and Dembele for that crazy money. After Neymar left they were just throwing money to save face. That was kind of crazy. No businessman would have granted this kind of contracts to most of their players as well.
Your right, politics are killing the club.

ThomasEmil said:

But why did they sign new players, if they knew they weren't gonna be able to register them?

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Because the daft buggers think people are going to be lining up to offer millions for their deadwood and are now shocked that they haven't had a 100m bid for Coutinho.

elmo said:

Pretty sure they just take the data and inteprate it however they want depending on who's paying for it.

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Yeah there’s definitely some companies that offer that, wrapped up in pretty colours with supposedly revolutionary new ways of measuring these things etc. but that’s only an option because the existing options were so flawed that people can be attracted by shiny but meaningless things!

Clubs have a good handle on ticket sales and merchandising, they own all the data and use it fairly well. It’s difficult to attribute that to individual players but there’s some reasonably reliable models.

When sponsorship and broadcast revenues became dominant, a lot of models popped up to measure their value (for both sides of the equation), a few different models popped up to measure their value, all saying vastly different things, and they’re based on very flimsy assumptions and unsophisticated analytics. The tech is the only reliable part of it. So folks move from one agency to the next with no continuity in their evaluation, and little trust in the current one they’ve chosen. They aren’t particularly analytical choices.

Sponsors don’t have a good sense on ROI and broadcasters repeatedly overpay, some companies like DAZN nearly collapsed in part because of dodgy valuations and companies like BT, ESPN, etc. dip in and out because returns are often far off what they expected. It’s all built on flimsy models.

Then social media came into play and it’s even less reliable. The companies who established a name in sponsorship and broadcasting had no knowledge of “new media” valuations, while the new tech-oriented companies that popped up have no expertise in the more traditional elements of sports’ commercial value. And the models that are used widely for digital media are very questionable anyway, there’s no “attribution model” that’s widely recognised as the best, some are just more applicable in some scenarios, and depending on which one you choose you get very different answers.

So even at an aggregate level their measurement is quite flawed. Applying it to an individual player really isn’t possible unless you’re using some really basic arithmetic. And in that case basic would just be wrong.

Tom Cato said:

Are you mad at Messi for taking a contract he was offered?

I don't care about Messi one bit, I'm just not going to let this discussion go along without putting the club itself at the very first of the blame queue.

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No. I'm mad at people absolving Messi of guilt when he negotiated hard for his contracts. Barca didn't pluck figures out of the air to offer him.

giorno said:

There was a long, drawn out and brutal negotiation involving a board member being called out by players and losing his position over it, and in the end, barcelona caved to Messi's demands

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Exactly. He's a hard bargainer. Fair enough as he was one of the best of all time but let's call it like it is, he asked for these figures.

11101 said:

It's all of their own making but I don't see any scenario where they are allowed to go under. We've been here before. At the 11th hour some miraculous not-at-all-government-linked financier will appear with a massive 'loan' at unheard of interest rates.

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This is precisely why not much of this furore is resonating with me. It's like a shit movie 'twist' you've seen a million times before. The more interesting game to play is predicting the day of the miracle.

Oldyella said:

No. I'm mad at people absolving Messi of guilt when he negotiated hard for his contracts. Barca didn't pluck figures out of the air to offer him.

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He has 0 guilt on this. He tried to leave last season. They would have got a decent fee. And him off the wages and started a rebuild they will have to do eventually. They went back on their word. Now they can live with it.

Oldyella said:

No. I'm mad at people absolving Messi of guilt when he negotiated hard for his contracts. Barca didn't pluck figures out of the air to offer him.

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Maybe in this context it is worth pointing in out two things Messi said in his interview after not being allowed to leave last season:

Lionel Messi said:

I told the club, including the president, that I wanted to go. I've been telling him that all year. I believed that the club needed more young players, new players and I thought my time in Barcelona was over. I felt very sorry because I always said that I wanted to finish my career here.

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Lionel Messi said:

Every year I could have left and earned more money than at Barcelona. I always said that this was my home and it was what I felt and feel. To decide there was somewhere better than here was difficult. I felt that I needed a change and new goals, new things.

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Zehner said:

Maybe in this context it is worth pointing in out two things Messi said in his interview after not being allowed to leave last season:

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"Every year I could have left and earned more money than at Barcelona. I always said that this was my home and it was what I felt and feel. To decide there was somewhere better than here was difficult. I felt that I needed a change and new goals, new things."

He means after the majority of his $674m contract over 4 years is paid out right? Because there isn't any other club going to pay anything close to that. It's face saving guff that most footballers come out with, and Messi is no exception.

Tom Cato said:

Ok so I'm heading out but Ill just leave this very quick bulletpoint here:

1) Messi's contract is NOT the reason for Barcelonas financial issues.
2) Barcelonas kit contract had increased value over the exposure and shirt sales Messi generates. (for the sponsor, NOT Barcelona). Through this alone he's earned his contract. The estimated revenue Leo Messo himself generates for Barcelona over a fiscal year is in the region of £200 million.
3) Barcelona were in an excellent financial situation after selling Neymar for £200 million. AFTER that they started the worst spending spree in history with the purchase of Dembele €130m, Griezman €120m, €145m, Frenkie de Jong €85m, Clement Lenglet €35m. That is such an absolutely WILD sum over such a short timeperiod.
4) All Barcelona players took a 70% paycut during covid.
5) And this is the important one: La Liga has a salary cap that is given a value for each team that encompasses cost, debt, revenue. Because of covid, everyons revenue is down significantly, whereas the debt has remained the same. This is why La Ligas salary cap is shrinking. Real Madrid have a higher ceiling than Barcelona because Barcelona is very simply put: A victim of their own overzealous transfer strategy of paying all the money, without considering a rainy day.

The club has spent money they can't afford to carry, in a environment where the club can't compete if it doesnt adhere to a set of rules directly linked with it's debt and revenue.

You're all blaming an apple of making a mess in an orchard.

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Leo Messo...I like it.

Never defer. You'll never see that money. There are currently players who have already deferred. They're not gonna get their money.

they need to move on from Messi to save their future. plus shift everyone on wages above 300, 000 pounds a week

Oldyella said:

No. I'm mad at people absolving Messi of guilt when he negotiated hard for his contracts. Barca didn't pluck figures out of the air to offer him.

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Why on earth would he feel any guilt?

His job in a contract negotiation with Barcelona is to represent his own interests. There's no burden on him to also represent Barcelona's interests. Especially given he has no way of knowing their financial capablities better than they do.

Driving a hard bargain is what he's entitled to do. If Barcelona can't afford it then they sell him, just like any other club would when their star player demands more than they can afford. But if they agree to his demands, he's entitled to assume they can actually afford to do so. If they can't but they agree to it anyway then that inability to manage their finances is solely their own fault.

If anything Messi should be pissed off at Barca rather than feeling guilty. They tied him to the mast and then sunk the ship. Now he's stuck in a crisis-ridden team where he and his teammates are facing pay-cuts and pay deferrals, whereas if Barca had been run properly they'd either be able to meet their financial commitments to him with no issue or he'd be playing for a different team who could afford to do so.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:

they need to move on from Messi to save their future. plus shift everyone on wages above 300, 000 pounds a week

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They‘re already trying that. But no one will be paying a fee and matching wages for their over paid dross. Maybe they’ll need to sell one of their super kids, to raise revenue?

Tom Cato said:

I think this is gravely overestimating the importance of Leo Messi's influence on global travel.

Camp Nou averages some 70k+ spectators every year. The club is one of the biggest in the world, they were that before Messi and they will remain so after Messi. According to club estimates, around 10,000 matchgoing fans at Camp Nou every week are tourists.

As I'm sure you're aware, Barcelona is one of the biggest tourist cities in Europe, its a city with a more than 2000 year old history that now includes some of the most spectacular architecture in Europe, seaside locations, sights,food and events all over city. The vast majority of people who visit Barcelona go there for the city. A match at Camp Nou is typically a added event during the visit, not the purpose of the visit. Sure some go to watch a game and travel back the next day, and even fewer go there so see Leo Messi play. Of course he's a pull and the spearhead of a Bacelona team that reached its zenith 5 years ago.

But re: the megastore: The club earns only a very small percentage on the shirt sales. This is a common urban myth. The club sponsors earn the majority of the money on the shirt sales. They are sponsors who'se primary motivation is to recoup their investment, and one of thos methods is indeed shirt sales. Millions of shirt sales that go primarily to the one benefactor: Nike. The clubs themselves mostly recoup 7-15% at the high end. Liverpool actually takes back 20% on their most recent deal.

Think of equipment sponsorships as licensing deals, where the kit sponsors license the right to print and sell club shirts and merchandise. The club gets a small percentage back for the license fee. The sponsor gets the revenue from mechandise sale + global exposure which is set at a fixed value that varies with markets.

Clubs making the money from shirt sales is just not feasible for a simple reason: Manufacturing. They are not manufacturers, they're a football club. Global logistics, customer service, hardware, marketing etc etc, all of that is best handled by the very companies who are international juggernauts to begin with.

Leo Messi is the most important player in the clubs history, but labeling him as a big factor for driving tourism to a city that sees some 15+ million visitors anually, is being a bit generous.

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https://www2.deloitte.com/sa/en/pag...ona-tops-deloittes-football-money-league.html

FC Barcelona’s revenue increase can largely be attributed to the club’s change in approach to operations, with the decision to bring merchandising and licensing activities in-house a primary factor. Recognising the power of its brand, the club has taken greater control of its merchandising and licensing operations, rather than relying on third parties for these services. This has given the club additional control over how its products are promoted and sold and the ability to report this revenue on a gross, rather than a net, basis.

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Regulus Arcturus Black said:

lolz

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Didn't you know that Barca made €1.65 Billion in the last 4 years just from Messi?

Did they fudge the numbers before the beginning of last season? This didn't just drop out of a tree - if they are using projected revenues did they assume crowds back 100% to boost the revenues? Why now? Surely there is more chance of higher revenues this season so is it because debt significantly increased?

Green_Red said:

Didn't you know that Barca made €1.65 Billion in the last 4 years just from Messi?

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It’s incredible how a club as big as Barcelona is going bankrupt when they have such a money making machine on the books. Shame they can’t sign another Messi to get out of this mess.

Tom Cato said:

Ok so I'm heading out but Ill just leave this very quick bulletpoint here:

1) Messi's contract is NOT the reason for Barcelonas financial issues.
2) Barcelonas kit contract had increased value over the exposure and shirt sales Messi generates. (for the sponsor, NOT Barcelona). Through this alone he's earned his contract. The estimated revenue Leo Messo himself generates for Barcelona over a fiscal year is in the region of £200 million.
3) Barcelona were in an excellent financial situation after selling Neymar for £200 million. AFTER that they started the worst spending spree in history with the purchase of Dembele €130m, Griezman €120m, €145m, Frenkie de Jong €85m, Clement Lenglet €35m. That is such an absolutely WILD sum over such a short timeperiod.
4) All Barcelona players took a 70% paycut during covid.
5) And this is the important one: La Liga has a salary cap that is given a value for each team that encompasses cost, debt, revenue. Because of covid, everyons revenue is down significantly, whereas the debt has remained the same. This is why La Ligas salary cap is shrinking. Real Madrid have a higher ceiling than Barcelona because Barcelona is very simply put: A victim of their own overzealous transfer strategy of paying all the money, without considering a rainy day.

The club has spent money they can't afford to carry, in a environment where the club can't compete if it doesnt adhere to a set of rules directly linked with it's debt and revenue.

You're all blaming an apple of making a mess in an orchard.

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Hope you're joking on that.

sidsutton said:

Did they fudge the numbers before the beginning of last season? This didn't just drop out of a tree - if they are using projected revenues did they assume crowds back 100% to boost the revenues? Why now? Surely there is more chance of higher revenues this season so is it because debt significantly increased?

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Saw this on Reddit

The laws were clear to the administration, and Marc Menchén explained them on June 18 in boring details

“If the administration ends the fiscal year with financial losses of about 300 million to clean its accounts, the League will reduce the club’s wage ceiling by more than 100 million.” And this is what happened

Because of the management insistence on recording all the losses of the last fiscal year "246 million" in the accounts of the same fiscal year, especially the deferred salaries

The association has reduced the salary ceiling from 347 million euros last year to about 160 million next year, according to RAC1

But if the management had reduced the losses of the last fiscal year by recording the deferred salaries in the accounts of the next four fiscal years, the club would not have been subjected to this entire embarrassment.




That reads as if Barca got themselves into this mess with lazy accounting

Zen86 said:

It’s incredible how a club as big as Barcelona is going bankrupt when they have such a money making machine on the books. Shame they can’t sign another Messi to get out of this mess.

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https://www.statista.com/statistics/282736/revenue-of-fc-barcelona/

It's hard to believe that they are making 3x Messis salary from the player. It seems ridiculous given their revenue in 2018/19 was €840 million. United don't have a Messi and our revenue for the same period was $775 US.

Green_Red said:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/282736/revenue-of-fc-barcelona/

It's hard to believe that they are making 3x Messis salary from the player. It seems ridiculous given their revenue in 2018/19 was €840 million. United don't have a Messi and our revenue for the same period was $775 US.

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It’s comical that people will blindly attribute the majority of shirt sales, sponsorships, and match day revenue to Messi as if Barcelona are some lowly nothing club. It’s incredibly assumptive accounting and the kind of rubbish Messi’s team would be trotting out when negotiating his massive pay rises.

This is lovely.

I would look to get rid of both Griezmann, Dembele and Messi personally. Messi can not carry them forever and obviously that will go some way to solving their financial issues. Hope that Depay kicks on and build around him, Fati, Pedri, De Jong and Garcia. Accept that they may have a couple of back years but rely on their academy that does still seem to produce gems. Doubt they will do any of that.

I feel for the genuine Barca fans who are contemplating their club disappearing. Football moneymen are scum.

I haven’t read all of the pages in this thread, so it might have been touched upon.
Afaik they still have not officially pulled out of the ESL project. Have they been banned from next seasons CL yet? I have a feeling they’re staying in the ESL for as long as they dare to get a cut of the withdrawal fees paid byvthe clubs who pulled out early. Do we know how much this potentially affects the picture?

Tom Cato said:

The estimated revenue Leo Messo himself generates for Barcelona over a fiscal year is in the region of £200 million.

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Estimated by whom? As @Brwned pointed out, most of these analysis are pure guesswork, framed to benefit whomever requested them. The suggestion that Messi generates ~30% of Barcelona's revenue is ridiculous.

giorno said:

Not to some extent. Player swaps involve agreeing on a price for the two players getting swapped, and then selling said players to each other at those prices

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yes but the income from sales is reflected here&now, the cost is spread across the contract lenght. So swaping players valued 50 mil each gives you 50 mil as income in current year and cost of 10 mil for the next 5years

12OunceEpilogue said:

I feel for the genuine Barca fans who are contemplating their club disappearing. Football moneymen are scum.

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One thing I don't get, wasn't Barca supposed to be part owned by fans? Aren't they also culpable? Where were the riots when Coutinho was being sought for that crazy money?

Halftrack said:

Estimated by whom? As @Brwned pointed out, most of these analysis are pure guesswork, framed to benefit whomever requested them. The suggestion that Messi generates ~30% of Barcelona's revenue is ridiculous.

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Maybe not 30%, but surely you'd say that Messi's value to the club and maybe even the league is pretty high. One could argue that the TV revenues in La Liga were sold at those amounts because of Messi vs Ronaldo; Barcelona's growth in North America and Asia in the past decade is largely because of him, and they might not have won these many trophies (or maybe even not qualified for CL) if not for him.
Add to that, the loss they're in is because their 100m + assets were total duds - 350m odd wasted + insane wages + became unsellable to recoup the money. Had they been successful, one could argue that selling even one of them off + getting deadwood off their books would have been enough to get out of this mess

Let them burn. They don't deserve anyone's sympathy. Expecting them to be "saved" and everything be rendered okay before the season starts.

La Liga cannot afford to have Barcelona suffer too much. They will be okay post-Messi, but will have to earn and graft much more, which requires proper football operations and coaching...will not be able to rely on their old heads for too much longer.

Green_Red said:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/282736/revenue-of-fc-barcelona/

It's hard to believe that they are making 3x Messis salary from the player. It seems ridiculous given their revenue in 2018/19 was €840 million. United don't have a Messi and our revenue for the same period was $775 US.

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Apparently without Messi, Barcelona are like Newcastle in terms of their commercial clout.

Tom Cato said:

The estimated revenue Leo Messo himself generates for Barcelona over a fiscal year is in the region of £200 million.

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Another gullible soul who likely believes in the tooth fairy.

200m quid alone