What’s the dilemma with Donny’s playing time & Ole?

IncyWincySpider · Sep 1, 2021

There was that training video posted on the CAF last season in which Ole is describing the time Donny rear ended him in the car park. He's laughing about it but maybe subconsciously that has had a negative effect on the way he views Donny.

I can't really understand from a football perspective why this situation has developed the way it has, so there must be something non-football related involved. I don't believe it can all be about performances on the training field given how many times we see the same players have awful matches and yet keep getting picked. You can't tell me they are consistently putting in great training performances but then flopping in real games over and over again.

DevTheRed · Sep 1, 2021

I’d like to see Donny and Fred start together for a few games, give Donny the role Ole gives McTominay with license to get forward and make some runs into the box, would really suit him.

The start of Van De Fred

spiriticon · Sep 1, 2021

I'd love to start him but WHERE can you play him and be confident that he will be better than the other options we have?

The weakness in our squad is DMF. Can he play there to a high level? Because if he can, he will get 50 games this season ahead of Fred and McT.

hungryhippo · Sep 1, 2021

Rozay said:
He’s an interesting player, but as I’m being told on here everyday that Ole doesn’t like passing the ball in midfield, you have to wonder if his qualities match with our vision.

Personally, I think his profile is what I would like to see in the midfield, and I think it will make us a better team, enable us to build play, pass through a press and progress the ball from area to area.

That's not true.

Nytram Shakes · Sep 1, 2021

The Van de Beek issue is the same issue it has been since he signed, he plays in the same role as Fernandes and Pogba, and those two are better than him so he doesn't play very much.

Litch · Sep 1, 2021

Nytram Shakes said:
The Van de Beek issue is the same issue it has been since he signed, he plays in the same role as Fernandes and Pogba, and those two are better than him so he doesn't play very much.

Spot on. Don't see anyone saying why did we sign that Brazilian LB and he doesn't get game time cause of Shaw?

Ikon · Sep 1, 2021

IncyWincySpider said:
A really strange situation that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Play him or sell him, but don't destroy his career by chaining him to the bench.

I'm in agreement.
This lad has admirers all over Europe, and has shown his quality at International & Champions League level.

If he doesn't suit our style, then why buy him in the first place?
If he isn't Premier League ready, then why block a loan move to another PL club?
How will he ever be PL ready, coming on in the 88th minute?
If Solskjaer doesn't rate him, then why not sell him?

After the way he was treated last season, WTF has Solskjaer actually promised him for this season?
Not only are Fred & Matic selected ahead of him for Saints away, they were bloody awful, and when Fred was eventually subbed, McT comes on, who we now know was injured and needed surgery.
Even when Matic is eventually subbed, Donny still doesn't get called upon, Lingard, recovering from Covid comes on, and the team is juggled around to fit Lingard in..?!?

That would have been the final straw for me, transfer request would have been throw in, it's just snub after snub, so isn't petulant to demand a transfer away.

Siorac · Sep 1, 2021

hungryhippo said:
That's not true.

But people do say that. That Ole wants his midfielders to get the ball and quickly and directly get it to the forwards.

Litch · Sep 1, 2021

Good player but it reminds me of when a player gets injured, they somehow look better not in the team, than in it. Somehow Donny has become the answer to our DM problem without playing in there. I honestly think he was bought because to me it looked like Pogs was going.....

Siorac · Sep 1, 2021

Litch said:
Spot on. Don't see anyone saying why did we sign that Brazilian LB and he doesn't get game time cause of Shaw?

That Brazilian LB played more than Van de Beek last season. And he can really only play one position, it's not like we ever play two left-backs. In midfield, there are more places open.

Lyng · Sep 1, 2021

MattyLT said:
There's only one holding midfielder in this team, Matic, and he isn't good enough. McTominay, Fred, Pogba, none of them have the discipline to cover the defence. But Fred gets a lot of unfair criticism IMO. McFred works somewhat because the two of them at least share the workload of running around and closing down.

Against Wolves, Fred was chasing players all by himself across the width of the pitch. So of course he's going to get knackered and make mistakes. Chasing players like a rabid dog is what he does, and he does it well. But he can't do it alone with no one covering the spaces he leaves behind, and then get blamed for the midfield being open.

This actually highlights our main midfield issue.

Matic stays very low and Bruno is on line with our forwards, which leaves a huge gap that Fred had to cover alone. With Pogba it's even worse because he moves up to where Bruno should be.

That's why McFred works better because they both share the duty and cover a wider ground.

It's also why VDB might actually be a better option than Bruno when McT is not there, simply because he is more disciplined in his positioning and thus leaves less of a gap for Fred and Pogba to fill.

Nytram Shakes · Sep 1, 2021

Litch said:
Spot on. Don't see anyone saying why did we sign that Brazilian LB and he doesn't get game time cause of Shaw?

Exactly! Donny was bought as squad depth/competition for our number 10's/ attacking midfielders.

The form of Pogba and Fernandes has meant we haven't needed that depth similar to the form of Shaw meaning we haven't really needed Telles.

Nytram Shakes · Sep 1, 2021

Siorac said:
That Brazilian LB played more than Van de Beek last season. And he can really only play one position, it's not like we ever play two left-backs. In midfield, there are more places open.

Yes but we are already struggling to get Pogba and Fernandes in the same team, Pogba has mainly played on the left-wing, there are only so many attacking midfielders/number 10's you can fit in a team.

Litch · Sep 1, 2021

Ikon said:
I'm in agreement.
This lad has admirers all over Europe, and has shown his quality at International & Champions League level.

If he doesn't suit our style, then why buy him in the first place?
If he isn't Premier League ready, then why block a loan move to another PL club?
How will he ever be PL ready, coming on in the 88th minute?
If Solskjaer doesn't rate him, then why not sell him?

After the way he was treated last season, WTF has Solskjaer actually promised him for this season?
Not only are Fred & Matic selected ahead of him for Saints away, they were bloody awful, and when Fred was eventually subbed, McT comes on, who we now know was injured and needed surgery.
Even when Matic is eventually subbed, Donny still doesn't get called upon, Lingard, recovering from Covid comes on, and the team is juggled around to fit Lingard in..?!?

That would have been the final straw for me, transfer request would have been throw in, it's just snub after snub, so isn't petulant to demand a transfer away.

Honestly I don't understand why people feel like this about a player like they are his agent, his partner or his family. The only thing I care about is what's in the clubs interest. Donny signed here based on what's in his. If Ole believes he's not better than what he's got, that's his job. If he wants to make substitutions that don't include Donny, then that's his job too. You know Donny isn't the only player not getting Football? Lindelof after being a starter is now probably not going to play, should he put a transfer request in?

You think Pep or Klopp give a flying feck whether a player plays or not? If you sign for a top club, be prepared to have to fight for your place. I'm sure the Brazilian LB thought he was gonna get football, Shaw improved and now he's no longer being called up even for his national side.

People talk about squads, well if you want a good one, these kind of players will need to be in it. If Bruno or Pogs get injured, take your chance....

RedDevilPure · Sep 1, 2021

IncyWincySpider said:
There was that training video posted on the CAF last season in which Ole is describing the time Donny rear ended him in the car park. He's laughing about it but maybe subconsciously that has had a negative effect on the way he views Donny.

I can't really understand from a football perspective why this situation has developed the way it has, so there must be something non-football related involved. I don't believe it can all be about performances on the training field given how many times we see the same players have awful matches and yet keep getting picked. You can't tell me they are consistently putting in great training performances but then flopping in real games over and over again.

This is the first time I've heard of this. Can you link me the video? Sounds like Ole has something personal against Donny if this is true.

Litch · Sep 1, 2021

Siorac said:
That Brazilian LB played more than Van de Beek last season. And he can really only play one position, it's not like we ever play two left-backs. In midfield, there are more places open.

Not that much and which midfield places are open? I agree he could have come off the bench more but Ole doesn't use subs in general anyway. Honestly I'm not sure why there's this fixation about being 'fair' when football at the highest level is so unfair. Ask DDG, committed to the club with a big contract, only to find out he was second to Hendo. You think we can play 2 goalkeepers or that they can come off the bench for playing time?

Rozay · Sep 1, 2021

Lyng said:
This actually highlights our main midfield issue.

Matic stays very low and Bruno is on line with our forwards, which leaves a huge gap that Fred had to cover alone. With Pogba it's even worse because he moves up to where Bruno should be.

That's why McFred works better because they both share the duty and cover a wider ground.

It's also why VDB might actually be a better option than Bruno when McT is not there, simply because he is more disciplined in his positioning and thus leaves less of a gap for Fred and Pogba to fill.

I’ve not wanted to say it as such, but I too can see merit in starting, or at least trying Donny over Bruno at times. Of course, it will never happen - but I do see how VDB’s interpretation of the 10 role can provide different benefits to us over Bruno’s interpretation of the role.

I do think they can also play together, with Donny + one behind Bruno, which in theory should again help us to advance the ball better than McFred. I think Donny, Bruno and Pogba can play together in the games that Pogba plays on the left.

Jacky Quacky · Sep 1, 2021

VDB is definitely not a good option for AM in our system. Lingard is much better than him there, so he has to be either DM or CM. He’s okay at DM but I would say Fred is better than him. Where he excels is making runs into the box from deep in midfield and scoring. I think he and Mctominay should battle it out in the same position, while Fred and Matic should battle it our for DM. Ole needs to give him more chances there for sure definetly.

roonster09 · Sep 1, 2021

Lyng said:
This actually highlights our main midfield issue.

Matic stays very low and Bruno is on line with our forwards, which leaves a huge gap that Fred had to cover alone. With Pogba it's even worse because he moves up to where Bruno should be.

That's why McFred works better because they both share the duty and cover a wider ground.

It's also why VDB might actually be a better option than Bruno when McT is not there, simply because he is more disciplined in his positioning and thus leaves less of a gap for Fred and Pogba to fill.

Van de Beek played as attacking mid when Bruno was rested, he barely gets on the ball. He is more off the ball player than contributing in the build up play.

Solius · Sep 1, 2021

There's a video of Ole and Donny in training where VDB says he's trying not to misplace any passes.
Solskjaer then goes, “Oh, like you’re doing now?”
Donny is taken aback, and all he can say is “Huh?” but Ole keeps cutting him off and going “huh? huh? huh?” and closing his hand shut in front of Donny's face. Ole walks away and continues with training, and you hear him chuckle as he walks off. When training finishes Ole is trying to walk off the pitch with like fifteen cones and balls in his hands without putting them away.
The coaches were very nice about it and professional, and were like “Ole you need to put those away.” At first he kept pretending to be tired and not hear them, but eventually turned back around and brought them to the ball bag.
When Phelan took a few of the balls and started putting them away, he stopped him and told him to put them each away individually “to prevent any tactical infetterence,” and then turned around and winked at Donny. I don’t even think that’s a word. After Phelan put each ball into the bag and started trying to arrange sprint drills, Ole kept interrupting him by yawning really loudly.

Litch · Sep 1, 2021

Jacky Quacky said:
VDB is definitely not a good option for AM in our system. Lingard is much better than him there, so he has to be either DM or CM. He’s okay at DM but I would say Fred is better than him. Where he excels is making runs into the box from deep in midfield and scoring. I think he and Mctominay should battle it out in the same position, while Fred and Matic should battle it our for DM. Ole needs to give him more chances there for sure definetly.

Our biggest issue is DM, we only have Matic as a 'true DM'. This aside, isn't really broken and once everyone is fit and new players settled, we should be ok. If it was Pep who likes to change formations and personnel etc, Donny would probably get more football but general, Ole plays the same team most weeks. I think Lingard, Martial, Eddy, Lindelof, Greenwood, Telles, Hendo/DDG etc and all gonna struggle to get good playing time for different reasons...

Litch · Sep 1, 2021

Solius said:
There's a video of Ole and Donny in training where VDB says he's trying not to misplace any passes.
Solskjaer then goes, “Oh, like you’re doing now?”
Donny is taken aback, and all he can say is “Huh?” but Ole keeps cutting him off and going “huh? huh? huh?” and closing his hand shut in front of Donny's face. Ole walks away and continues with training, and you hear him chuckle as he walks off. When training finishes Ole is trying to walk off the pitch with like fifteen cones and balls in his hands without putting them away.
The coaches were very nice about it and professional, and were like “Ole you need to put those away.” At first he kept pretending to be tired and not hear them, but eventually turned back around and brought them to the ball bag.
When Phelan took a few of the balls and started putting them away, he stopped him and told him to put them each away individually “to prevent any tactical infetterence,” and then turned around and winked at Donny. I don’t even think that’s a word. After Phelan put each ball into the bag and started trying to arrange sprint drills, Ole kept interrupting him by yawning really loudly.

Things like this (if it happened) occurs all the time. Players argue and sometimes end of fighting. People are reading into too much shite....

Ekeke · Sep 1, 2021

It seems that Ole wants Pogba as his DM who is weak defensively as an option and rates Fred, Matic and McTominay higher defensively. Even though DVB is technically better and a better passer, it seems he's not considered to play DM in many matches unlike how Pogba is, and in other games where we're going with 2 supposedly "solid" DMs, he's considered behind Fred, Matic and McTominay for the role.

Terrible position to be in. Everything except Ole coming out and saying it suggests he either never wanted him, or did at one point but doesnt now.

Stacks · Sep 1, 2021

Donny is the next bench player to become the new unused hero and "answer" to our problems based off of good faith

Litch · Sep 1, 2021

Ekeke said:
It seems that Ole wants Pogba as his DM who is weak defensively as an option and rates Fred, Matic and McTominay higher defensively. Even though DVB is technically better and a better passer, it seems he's not considered to play DM in many matches unlike how Pogba is, and in other games where we're going with 2 supposedly "solid" DMs, he's considered behind Fred, Matic and McTominay for the role.

Terrible position to be in. Everything except Ole coming out and saying it suggests he either never wanted him, or did at one point but doesnt now.

Different but Lindelof becomes captain of his national team, month later and he's on the bench for Utd. Unless either CB get injured, he's playing Mikey Mouse Cup games. Dan James starts 2 of the first 3 games, must of thought he's in Oles plans, only to get sold. I think things can change very quickly and I fundamentally believe he came in cause the club thought Pogs was going....

Solius · Sep 1, 2021

Litch said:
Things like this (if it happened) occurs all the time. Players argue and sometimes end of fighting. People are reading into too much shite....

youmeletsfly · Sep 1, 2021

romufc said:
I would like to see a player grab a chance with 8 hands once every 6 months of playing. He gets 45 mins max in a game, what do you expect him to do from CM? Score a Hat trick and get hat trick of assists whilst having 100% interceptions and tackle rate?

His agent has said nothing that isn't true, he has been patient for a year, he has been promised game time and in 3 games after having a decent pre season has 0 minutes in the league.

The reason people are calling for him to start is because Fred, Matic, Pogba have been putting up stinkers in the middle of the park. Pogba on the weekend had a poor game as CM.

He can't get the chance over Fred who is allowed to make 10 mistakes a game yet keeps getting the managers vote of confidence?

I agree with you, but grabbing a chance with 8 hands doesn't need to happen only in a game, that's only half of it, the other it's the day to day training.

And his agent shouldn't wash his rubbish in public, the same as Ole doesn't. If it's Pogba people are outraged, if it's Donny people are ok with it.

Now, hopefullly with us competing for a trophy here and there, he will, at least, feature regularly in the cups and that should be enough for him to show what he's made of.

Ikon · Sep 1, 2021

Litch said:
Honestly I don't understand why people feel like this about a player like they are his agent, his partner or his family. The only thing I care about is what's in the clubs interest. Donny signed here based on what's in his. If Ole believes he's not better than what he's got, that's his job. If he wants to make substitutions that don't include Donny, then that's his job too. You know Donny isn't the only player not getting Football? Lindelof after being a starter is now probably not going to play, should he put a transfer request in?

That's a daft comment.
Lindelof has been left out of one game, with one player clearly ahead of him.
Donny just continually gets snubbed left right and centre, even players recovering from Covid, playing out of position, or in poor form are being selected ahead of him, and not for one game, but for the whole season.
You say about the clubs interest.
Where does the club's interest fare when £40 Million quid has been spent on a player that isn't given a jot of game time?
Where does the club's interest fare, when we have to 'sell to buy' so we miss out on a necessary player, and instead we insist on keeping an unwanted player?

But why are we keeping a player that doesn't get to play, a player that would easily sell for decent money.
I'm baffled why we won't sell him, won't loan him, and won't play him.
If you don't rate him, sell him. Recoup your £40M and reinvest.

Fortitude · Sep 1, 2021

Counterfactual said:
Pogba's replacement, but Pogba hasn't gone or committed to staying, so Donny's in limbo.

People keep saying this, but it doesn't make any sense. Let's assume Van de Beek is a Pogba replacement for the central areas of the pitch. If that's the case, why could the replacement not play in Pogba's initial position of CM whilst Pogba stays where he was thriving out on the left?

Why would we drag our star performer from the first two games into a position he's up and down in from the one in which he was shining if Van de Beek is his replacement for the centre of the pitch?

We had to disrupt multiple players in multiple positions last game because McTominay wasn't available - the upheaval could be reduced to 1:1 if there was a CM sitting on the bench who could have interchanged, so why was Van de Beek completely ignored?

Van de Beek is being treated oddly for whatever reason, but Pogba not even starting the season through the middle suggests it's got nothing to do with him that the former is getting no PT whatsoever.

And if the reason he is not getting PT is because he doesn't look the part in training or whatever, then why wasn't he sold and his place taken by his replacement?

Very little of this makes sense, and trying to make sense of it pokes even more holes in the reasons why he's still here.

Judas · Sep 1, 2021

The he's seen as a backup to Pogba/Bruno doesn't really wash for me, because even when they're subbed, its barely ever for Donny. The blokes the backup backup.

Oaencha · Sep 1, 2021

Easy answer. Trust that Ole sees more of DVB than any of us here. He was either worse than than expected, or he’s not stamina-wise and technically not ready for the PL. That I place on the scouts.

Kaos · Sep 1, 2021

Oaencha said:
Easy answer. Trust that Ole sees more of DVB than any of us here. He was either worse than than expected, or he’s not stamina-wise and technically not ready for the PL. That I place on the scouts.

Then why didn't we sell him this summer? At the very least I'd imagine we would have entertained a loan move for him back to Holland. I can't imagine the player would be too happy either with a World Cup approaching too. Just sounds like we're torturing the guy by not allowing him to leave but also not allowing him to play either. Its bizarre tbh.

Dash247 · Sep 1, 2021

He will play.

In 2019, he played 37 games for Ajax.
In 2020, he played 36 games for us.

Again in 2021, we will be playing a lot of League and cup games. He will surely get his chances.

yipthatman · Sep 1, 2021

Has anyone here honestly seen Donny play and think, yeah, he is better than all the other options in that position? Sure, he has had limited game time but he has been average at best when I have seen him. I mean who should Ole leave out the team for him? The only position I can think of where he would actually improve is CDM. Tactics is not my strong point. Am I wrong? I really hope it works out for him and he knuckles down this season.

Player Red · Sep 1, 2021

Litch said:
Things like this (if it happened) occurs all the time. Players argue and sometimes end of fighting. People are reading into too much shite....

Hook meet the line.

Oaencha · Sep 1, 2021

Kaos said:
Then why didn't we sell him this summer? At the very least I'd imagine we would have entertained a loan move for him back to Holland. I can't imagine the player would be too happy either with a World Cup approaching too. Just sounds like we're torturing the guy by not allowing him to leave but also not allowing him to play either. Its bizarre tbh.

Because it will shatter his confidence and be a crap thing to do. More importantly there is a good player in there. He’s not ready now but could be a first teamer. Patience. If nothing happens after this season then yes, get rid.

Ikon · Sep 1, 2021

Oaencha said:
Easy answer. Trust that Ole sees more of DVB than any of us here. He was either worse than than expected, or he’s not stamina-wise and technically not ready for the PL. That I place on the scouts.

That makes little sense.
If he isn't good enough, sell him and recoup your £40m to reinvest. Remember we had to "sell to buy"...?
If he isn't ready for the PL, why then block a loan to Everton, where he will get regular PL football, and eventually be ready for United?
I keep hearing that he is a back up player, but to who exactly?
He doesn't come in if Pogba or Bruno don't play, and he doesn't come in if either Fred or McT don't play.
The situation is just bizarre.

Kaos · Sep 1, 2021

Oaencha said:
Because it will shatter his confidence and be a crap thing to do. More importantly there is a good player in there. He’s not ready now but could be a first teamer. Patience. If nothing happens after this season then yes, get rid.

I'd argue we're already doing that since he's having to watch a very poor Fred and legless Matic get games ahead of him, and Jessie Lingard and an injured McTominay coming on as subs instead of him too.

Jacob · Sep 1, 2021

Donny was a poor signing. Not because of his skills or lack therefore, more so for the lack of fit to the squad.

yipthatman · Sep 1, 2021

Ole thinks he isnt good enough to play (which is good enough for me) but United fans seem to want him to play all the time. Its as if we need a new Dan James, Fellani type person playing that isnt good enough and we can all hate on them every time they make a mistake. I just dont think he is as good as we all wish he was. Maybe that will improve with hard work a little game time and confidence?

What’s the dilemma with Donny’s playing time & Ole?

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