We are an awfully coached team

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1. We played attacking football more often than not since Ole came in.

2. This team is good enough to win something, this is the season to prove it.

3. Nope, who said that?

4. Considering the fact that he did it during his rebuild, that was impressive. That's a fact you cant fabricate. I don't want to hear excuses about Chelsea being shit or Liverpool being shit, the table doesn't lie.

5. He actually did. Some of the games was atrocious to watch.

6. Of course there are managers out there, but why change when we're on the rise?

7. Actually, this is true. You want to chop and changing managers because we're an elite club we should be chasing for prestige and prestige only. Being a United fan is more than that, it's the romantiscm of how we gained those successful stories.

The Ole Out lot refuse to acknowledge the progress the club has made since the dark days of moyes/van gaal/mourinho.

If we win the league this year they'll say it was nothing to do with Ole.
 

stw2022

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The problem is there are actually people who think they can do better than Ole
Agreed this is absurd.

It's a shame more football grounds aren't filled with silence on match day, broken only by fans piping up to sing 'Who are we to judge' and serenade the referee with the chant 'I'm sure you're trying your best and we've never officiated a game in our lives so who are we to question your decisions.'
 

NZT-One

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What does he do?
I think, I read an article when Phelan came in with Ole, that Phelan is the one who knows the players best and is best in evaluating what they can do and can't do. Not just in terms of technical or tactical abilities, but also on a personal level.

I watch City, Liverpool and Chelsea as often as I can, and I don't agree with your assessment. Rather, there are both benefits and disadvantages to the different approaches.

Liverpool is as dependent as we are on their top players delivering the goods. When they don't, or aren't available, they struggle - arguably more than we do. They dropped 22 points to bottom half teams last year, we dropped 12. Klopp may have a more clearly recognisable system than we have, but it is also more dependent on specific qualities in specific positions. This brings vulnerabilities as well as advantages, which the past two seasons wonderfully demonstrate.

Chelsea under Tuchel have a marvellous ability to control games, which is really the backbone of that team, and one that has already brought them a CL title. It was evident already in his first game, and is a very, very impressive achievement by Tuchel. But that too comes at a cost to offensive dynamism, and it is not self-evidently an approach that is superior in terms of delivering consistent results in the PL. Chelsea dropped 9 points to lower half teams in 19 games under Tuchel last season - hence struggling considerably more than we did against teams that generally did not attempt to dominate games, which is the sort of team against which a control approach has the fewest relative benefits.

City of course is a machine, and the kind of football Pep can deliver when he's got the necessary parts available is a sight to behold. But City these days also have their vulnerabilities. They are no longer the sort of team who racks up 25 shots and blow opponents away. The shots are fewer, the score margins more often narrower. It's not that rare these days to see them produce only a small handful of big scoring chances through a game, though that is usually enough. But it's two seasons now where they haven't really approached the levels they achieved in the preceding two seasons. And for once, they now look like they have a couple of significant holes in the squad (left back, striker).

I think it's fair to claim that of the top 4 teams, ours is the style that provides the most leeway for some exceptionally talented attacking players to make full use of their talents, and this may be more of a strength than a weakness. It's not a choice between structure and anarchy, every team and every system has to strike a balance between freedom of expression and structure. More structure isn't necessarily the same thing as a better system. Bruno seems to me to be a good example - given licence to roam at United, he's an exceptional player. Being shovelled into a much more defined and limited role in the portuguese national team, he doesn't accomplish very much.
Interesting read. I would like to mention that dropped points may not be the best metric to use for comparisons here. They are certainly not wrongly used, but our match against Young Boys for example shows, how many things can effect the final outcome of a match. Too many factors outside of the control of a manager.

When thinking about systems and structures, I think, there are many factors to consider. But for me personally, one stands out (even though I know, it also has its flaws): xG and respectively xGA. For all its issues, analyzed over multiple teams and over a season, it gives you a pretty good outlook about how well a team is doing creating chances wise and how well they do to stop the opposition to create chances. And that is where we see, that our forwards did very very well last season, making the absolute very best out of the "little chances" we provided them with.

Having that in mind, I think, the outcome of your comparison changes quite significantly: Liverpool for all their woes and issues was able to create the 2nd highest amount of xG, Chelsea the 3rd highest (even though not much between them and us). Our xG was closer to the likes of Leicester than it was to City and Liverpool. I am not trying to depict ManUtd as a worse team because of it - but our competition is more effective in most aspects, thats evident. I am not trying to pretend I would know what the reason is for that, there may be many, but having a more structured approach (in the way you described it in your post) most certainly would be a plausible explanation.
 

Annihilate Now!

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From F365 - "This was the seventh time a player had been sent off during the Norwegian’s reign. Manchester United have now played 196 minutes with ten men under Solskjaer, scoring no goals and conceding eight."

We are really bad with 10 men.
 

meamth

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I think, I read an article when Phelan came in with Ole, that Phelan is the one who knows the players best and is best in evaluating what they can do and can't do. Not just in terms of technical or tactical abilities, but also on a personal level.


Interesting read. I would like to mention that dropped points may not be the best metric to use for comparisons here. They are certainly not wrongly used, but our match against Young Boys for example shows, how many things can effect the final outcome of a match. Too many factors outside of the control of a manager.

When thinking about systems and structures, I think, there are many factors to consider. But for me personally, one stands out (even though I know, it also has its flaws): xG and respectively xGA. For all its issues, analyzed over multiple teams and over a season, it gives you a pretty good outlook about how well a team is doing creating chances wise and how well they do to stop the opposition to create chances. And that is where we see, that our forwards did very very well last season, making the absolute very best out of the "little chances" we provided them with.

Having that in mind, I think, the outcome of your comparison changes quite significantly: Liverpool for all their woes and issues was able to create the 2nd highest amount of xG, Chelsea the 3rd highest (even though not much between them and us). Our xG was closer to the likes of Leicester than it was to City and Liverpool. I am not trying to depict ManUtd as a worse team because of it - but our competition is more effective in most aspects, thats evident. I am not trying to pretend I would know what the reason is for that, there may be many, but having a more structured approach (in the way you described it in your post) most certainly would be a plausible explanation.
Exactly.

I refuse to believe that from the footage of showing Ole and Mckenna close together discussing things is pure nonsense or incompetent.

Like us, they will always speculate things on the pitch, what they can change, what is viable, how well we're playing, etc.

Obviously they went with the wrong tactics yesterday after the red card, those things happens.
 

Mickeza

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We're coached by rookies unfortunately

Except they aren’t rookies are they? They’ve coached a team that finished 3rd, 2nd, reached countless semi-finals and a European final. For anyone else that’s experience. We’ve also lost 6 PL games (4 of which have slightly mitigating circumstances due to having zero pre-season and having to play 4 games in a week) out of the last 52 or so. It’s obviously not fecking awful. And no amount of armchair expert nonsense will convince me otherwise. Some of you need to realise the aim of coaching is to get the best out of your squad and maximise your chances of winning football matches - not to weave pretty fecking patterns.
 

largelyworried

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Agreed this is absurd.

It's a shame more football grounds aren't filled with silence on match day, broken only by fans piping up to sing 'Who are we to judge' and serenade the referee with the chant 'I'm sure you're trying your best and we've never officiated a game in our lives so who are we to question your decisions.'
:lol:
 

GlasgowCeltic

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Agreed this is absurd.

It's a shame more football grounds aren't filled with silence on match day, broken only by fans piping up to sing 'Who are we to judge' and serenade the referee with the chant 'I'm sure you're trying your best and we've never officiated a game in our lives so who are we to question your decisions.'
:D
 

Borussin

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Well, then why were the results so awful when they were in exactly that position? On the evidence of last season, Liverpool's results hugely deteriorate when they are missing a significant number of key players, or key players are used out of positions, or just have off days. Surely this shows clearly exactly that their system don't provide a structure that the team can operate on effectively, even when they are missing several of their best players.
not going to get into the whole debate here, but Liverpool’s performances and results remained very good last season even after losing who most think is their best player - Virgil Van Djik. It was when they lost every single senior centre half and had to move their best midfielder to cover that position they went through that run of terrible results before turning it back around.

At the end of the day, every single team will suffer greatly if you take out 4 or 5 key players from the team’s spine for long stretches, including all senior players in one position, which is what happened to them.

One of the biggest examples of a team struggling when losing just one key player was Man City the season Liverpool won the league, and they had Laporte out for so long, and Guardiola is the best coach in Europe in the eyes of many. So you would be better off using them as an example maybe for this argument. It would make much more sense.
 

lex talionis

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Agreed but that wasn't the point I wanted to make. Let me rephrase - You mentioned that the outcry after Tuesday wouldn't have been as loud had we managed to keep it at 1:1. I meant, that I am pretty sure that this doesn't seem to be plausible for me. Because we didn't do anything of note in 2nd half and we were not awesome before the red card as well. A performance like this would have been criticised in any case or result. I agree with you - going defensive wasn't an obvious mistake, but to go full defensive for 45min with only a 1-goal-lead is easily just as risky than trying to play a bit more balanced and at least remain dangerous on a counter, something we excel at, which makes it even more absurd.

And about LVG and Mourinho, you used the word "we were all told their resumes speak volumes..." - who do you mean with that, who told us that? I wasn't on redcafe back then but on a German fan forum but I am pretty sure, the majority of fans weren't celebrating these managers for their status but mostly because they meant the end of the unfortunate Moyes reign and the dreading LVG period a while after.
And thats what I mean, we were more happy, that bad managers were gone than we were happy that great managers arrived. And that makes the argument, that because LVG and Mourinho failed as supposedly top coaches we should stick to Ole in any case because at least he isn't as bad as these two, so weak in my eyes.
I’ll tackle the second point first.

When Van Gaal was appointed, the fan were still reeling from the abomination of Moyes, which the fan base was probably 98% opposed to in the first place. Moyes had no resume, no trophies to his name. Van Gaal had lots of trophies to his name and he brought with him a kind of tactical sophistication that was supposed to shower us with trophies. My concern was that English game, and United’s tradition, demanded a more attack-minded manager. Dumb luck, but I was right. But Mourinho was a different manager: recent success in England and in Europe supported the claim he would be a perfect fit. My concern was that he left Chelsea in shambles and that we would do the same for United. That’s exactly what happened. I’m not sure what the point is in going over this history other than to suggest that great managerial resumes are no guarantee that a manager will be successful for his next gig. Very few managers are a sure thing. There may be no more than three or four managers in the world who we could bring in right now (if they were hypothetically available) and be a guaranteed success.

As for the first point, we weren’t playing that well before the red card but we did have the lead. An attacker had to be subbed off. There was little reason to believe that that our attacking game would have improved. It’s only in hindsight that we could have foreseen the possibility of Lingard, a player whom I do not rate and I do blame Ole for keeping, gifting away victory to the opposition.
 

Offside

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We've got a style of football that will win us the league this season.
 

Desert Eagle

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Agreed this is absurd.

It's a shame more football grounds aren't filled with silence on match day, broken only by fans piping up to sing 'Who are we to judge' and serenade the referee with the chant 'I'm sure you're trying your best and we've never officiated a game in our lives so who are we to question your decisions.'
:lol::lol:

From F365 - "This was the seventh time a player had been sent off during the Norwegian’s reign. Manchester United have now played 196 minutes with ten men under Solskjaer, scoring no goals and conceding eight."

We are really bad with 10 men.
I think that stat is pretty skewed because of the spurs disaster but definitely not a positive regardless.
 

Foxbatt

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Forget about the formations. We simply don't know what to do when we have the ball. Most of the time it's trying to launch a counter attack. We don't know where to move and when to pass and whom to pass. It's all down to the individual player.
 

Nou_Camp99

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'Terribly coached' team lost same number of PL games as one of the finest coaches ever to manage in the game did last season in Pep.

We are also top of the league.

Love hearing people on here talking about coaching what with all their expert knowledge in the field. Hahahaha
 

RedDevil@84

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Love hearing people on here talking about coaching what with all their expert knowledge in the field. Hahahaha
As opposed to certain people with a career full of experience playing for United, who are qualified enough to criticize AWB and say "I told you so"
 

sullydnl

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'Terribly coached' team lost same number of PL games as one of the finest coaches ever to manage in the game did last season in Pep.

We are also top of the league.

Love hearing people on here talking about coaching what with all their expert knowledge in the field. Hahahaha
We're not experts in any aspect of football. Should we close the forum then? If you feel you have insufficient intellectual capacity to discuss football then that's your prerogative really. Most people don't.
 

Nou_Camp99

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We're not experts in any aspect of football. Should we close the forum then? If you feel you have insufficient intellectual capacity to discuss football then that's your prerogative really. Most people don't.
We came 2nd last season. Lost same games as City. Got to a European final. We were 2nd highest scorers in the league too. Yet we are coached poorly apparently.

What you moaners are really saying is we aren't coached as well as a Pep team. That would be a fairer criticism.
 

Flytan

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We came 2nd last season. Lost same games as City. Got to a European final. We were 2nd highest scorers in the league too. Yet we are coached poorly apparently.

What you moaners are really saying is we aren't coached as well as a Pep team. That would be a fairer criticism.
No one is asking for us to go and steal Pep from City. There's plenty of manager between Pep and Ole that would be options for the club if the season is derailed. Most people's issue here is that there are delusional Ole supporters who will never blame him for anything because of his history at the club. If this result happened to Mourinho (this was worse than Sevilla in my eyes) this whole forum would want the manager sacked. Honestly I'm more frustrated with the blind support for Ole than I am with Ole himself. I don't think he's good enough for the job but he did finish second last year and even if I think he's a mediocre manager who could be easily replaced he gets a few more results like this before I think he should be fired. It feels like any time there are expectations (Villareal, title winning squad, after beating PSG in Paris, top of the league last year midseason) Ole immediately folds and every ounce of progress is erased. A Manager should help his squad rise to the occasion, and I feel like he does the opposite.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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No one is asking for us to go and steal Pep from City. There's plenty of manager between Pep and Ole that would be options for the club if the season is derailed. Most people's issue here is that there are delusional Ole supporters who will never blame him for anything because of his history at the club. If this result happened to Mourinho (this was worse than Sevilla in my eyes) this whole forum would want the manager sacked. Honestly I'm more frustrated with the blind support for Ole than I am with Ole himself. I don't think he's good enough for the job but he did finish second last year and even if I think he's a mediocre manager who could be easily replaced he gets a few more results like this before I think he should be fired. It feels like any time there are expectations (Villareal, title winning squad, after beating PSG in Paris, top of the league last year midseason) Ole immediately folds and every ounce of progress is erased. A Manager should help his squad rise to the occasion, and I feel like he does the opposite.
Doubt it. Mourinho has a crazy following
 

Nou_Camp99

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No one is asking for us to go and steal Pep from City. There's plenty of manager between Pep and Ole that would be options for the club if the season is derailed. Most people's issue here is that there are delusional Ole supporters who will never blame him for anything because of his history at the club. If this result happened to Mourinho (this was worse than Sevilla in my eyes) this whole forum would want the manager sacked. Honestly I'm more frustrated with the blind support for Ole than I am with Ole himself. I don't think he's good enough for the job but he did finish second last year and even if I think he's a mediocre manager who could be easily replaced he gets a few more results like this before I think he should be fired. It feels like any time there are expectations (Villareal, title winning squad, after beating PSG in Paris, top of the league last year midseason) Ole immediately folds and every ounce of progress is erased. A Manager should help his squad rise to the occasion, and I feel like he does the opposite.
'Ole immediately folds' yet we have the longest unbeaten away record in the club's history and Ole also has a better head to head record Vs Pep in the league.

Loads of Ole outers wanted Poch. He came 2nd to Lille last season and couldn't beat Bruges last night with 11 men on pitch unlike us with 10.

Conte is available some say. He's won 3 of his last 15 CL ties in management. Hardly amazing.

It's just moaning now. It's boring. We are top of the league at the moment and only lost other night because of a red card. People need to get in the real world. Ole ain't going anywhere soon so I suggest doing something else on match days if supporting a club legend is too much for some of you.
 

Hammondo

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We came 2nd last season. Lost same games as City. Got to a European final. We were 2nd highest scorers in the league too. Yet we are coached poorly apparently.

What you moaners are really saying is we aren't coached as well as a Pep team. That would be a fairer criticism.
I am not for or against Ole, just to be clear. I am shocked that you would suggest coming 2nd in Europa is an accomplishment for United.
 

The Boy

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It's just moaning now. It's boring. We are top of the league at the moment and only lost other night because of a red card. People need to get in the real world. Ole ain't going anywhere soon so I suggest doing something else on match days if supporting a club legend is too much for some of you.
I do find it weird that Ole is pretty much the only manager who could be top of the league on a record breaking away run, lose one game because of a red card and immediately his job is under threat.
 
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Tom Van Persie

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Rookies, failures and people coasting by since we were last an elite side.
Mark Dempsey isn't with the first team anymore and Eric Ramsay is missing from the list. Also think it's a bit harsh to say Phelan failed with Hull. He was in a bad situation (similar to Ole at Cardiff) a lot of off field issues. He got to a great start there and won manager of the month before it went to shit. Anyway, some coaches are better at being number two's.

IIRC the goalkeeper coach was let go because he was getting involved in De Gea's contract negotiations.
 

RetroStu

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What annoys me is you already know how the West Ham (and most games to be honest) will go. We will start quite well, maybe creat 3 or 4 quick chances, probably score once, maybe twice in the first 30mins or so, then we will finish off the first hal;f on the back foot, and for most of the second half we will be dominated, and maybe with a bit of luck win the game by 1 goal. Possible end up drawing the game.

Its getting tedious.
 

Flytan

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'Ole immediately folds' yet we have the longest unbeaten away record in the club's history and Ole also has a better head to head record Vs Pep in the league.

Loads of Ole outers wanted Poch. He came 2nd to Lille last season and couldn't beat Bruges last night with 11 men on pitch unlike us with 10.

Conte is available some say. He's won 3 of his last 15 CL ties in management. Hardly amazing.

It's just moaning now. It's boring. We are top of the league at the moment and only lost other night because of a red card. People need to get in the real world. Ole ain't going anywhere soon so I suggest doing something else on match days if supporting a club legend is too much for some of you.
Ah yes, typical Ole supporter, insulting any fan that exposes his mediocrity. "if you have a problem with him you're just not as good as a fan as I am". The level of nepotism here is real.
 

tenpoless

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We just need better coaching staffs. Let the manager do his work, Ole is good at managing the players and at transfers. The tactical bits he can just use others expertise to add to his own. Better coaching staffs help both the manager and the team without having to rebuild the squad.
 

Amir

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We just need better coaching staffs. Let the manager do his work, Ole is good at managing the players and at transfers. The tactical bits he can just use others expertise to add to his own. Better coaching staffs help both the manager and the team without having to rebuild the squad.
So who decides the lineup? The subs? Tactical changes during the game?

There's a difference between getting some help to being dependent on others. A manager cannot be someone who needs others to hold his hand.
 

Idxomer

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I do find it weird that Ole is pretty much the only manager who could be top of the league on a record breaking away run, lose one game because if a yellow card and immediately his job is under threat.
Top of the league after 4 games means absolutely nothing and with Ole even being top in January doesn't mean much as we learned last season.

The away record is nice and all but we still lost so many away crucial games in other competitions during the same period.
 

tenpoless

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So who decides the lineup? The subs? Tactical changes during the game?

There's a difference between getting some help to being dependent on others. A manager cannot be someone who needs others to hold his hand.
Its better than having people who only say yes boss. I refuse to believe Carrick sees how we play right now and think its the way. He was a very good midfielder himself and seeing us losing the ball 5 times in 20 minutes should feel like hell to him.
 

Crustanoid

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I'm not your lad.

No, you had an opinion. You don't type and that makes it fact.

Let's leave it as arguments online just aren't worth our time.
His name is literally Brexit brigade. Probably best left alone
 

Andycoleno9

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"Overarching philosophy… I don’t sit here and claim and talk... football is a simple game and it's about making good decisions and being in a team.

Sometimes we look too much into the all intricacies and it’s passion, it's desire - who wants to win the ball? Which one of the striker has the desire to get on the end of crosses?

You can talk about all sorts, it looks nice on paper. But when you go out on that pitch, it's who wants to win, that’s one of the big things. You want winners and I think I’m getting there with my team, team players."

And finally we got an answer from man himself. Coaching is; you must really,really really really really want to win.
This guy is a joke.
 

elmo

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Its better than having people who only say yes boss. I refuse to believe Carrick sees how we play right now and think its the way. He was a very good midfielder himself and seeing us losing the ball 5 times in 20 minutes should feel like hell to him.
Nobody knows what Carrick is like as a coach, no player comes out and say he's helping them along in their game and it's concerning since he's been here under Van Gaal, Jose and now Ole and yet nobody really knows what he's contributing.
 

Tom Van Persie

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Nobody knows what Carrick is like as a coach, no player comes out and say he's helping them along in their game and it's concerning since he's been here under Van Gaal, Jose and now Ole and yet nobody really knows what he's contributing.
Carrick wasn't a coach under van Gaal.
 

Amir

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Its better than having people who only say yes boss. I refuse to believe Carrick sees how we play right now and think its the way. He was a very good midfielder himself and seeing us losing the ball 5 times in 20 minutes should feel like hell to him.
Who says Carrick is a yes man? He may have a different view from the manager, but at the end of the day it is the manager who decides how we play. It wil not change if we bring in someone else. Unless the manager is open for updating himself.
 

Amir

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Nobody knows what Carrick is like as a coach, no player comes out and say he's helping them along in their game and it's concerning since he's been here under Van Gaal, Jose and now Ole and yet nobody really knows what he's contributing.
Well, maybe he's crap and needs to be replaced. And if the manager doesn't see it and insists on keeping him, then he should be replaced himself.

Seriously, I find it annoying when people talk about the likes of Carrick and McKenna They are very young coaches and we have no idea how good they are. Maybe they are brilliant at what they do, but are hampered by a manager who wants to play a certain way. Maybe they are bad in their jobs, but the manager insists on keeping them. One way or the other, the bucks stops with the manager.

All due respect to coaches and assistant coaches, teams take the structure and style of their manager (or head coach if there's no manager). An assistant or a coach cannot save a manager from himself.