We are an awfully coached team

MadMike

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Nou_Camp99 said:
Well nobody is saying he's on a par with Fergie. Nobody is. That's not the point of that comment and you know it. It's showing that the best team quite often in football doesn't win. If they did always win we wouldn't watch it in the numbers we do.

Villarreal knew they had the weaker team so they had a game plan of sitting deep and giving up the ball. It's a gameplay that has worked a lot for us against City in previous seasons. It was hardly masterful tactics but it can be effective.
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Again, nobody is saying that Ole could or should win every game. Bad results do happen. He's not and will not be judged on the YB defeat alone.

But even though the best team doesn't always win, it should win most times. And managers of top clubs do get judged on what titles they win. A manager can't always hide behind the excuse of a freak result. United should be beating Villareal 8 times out of 10.

People are worried about things they observe in our performances and about a persistent pattern of underperformance in Europe under Ole (7 defeats in 11 games in the CL) that seems to stem from bad tactics or game management. He will need to improve significantly. He has a squad that should be challenging for the title and comfortably progressing from the groups into the CL knockouts.

I hope he does improve, for the record. I just have my doubts
 

Amir

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Nou_Camp99 said:
Doesn't mean we will win the league, no, but if you sacked a manager after 4 games when they are top of the PL it doesn't look good does it?

What is the message being sent there?
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I'm not saying that I want him sacked now, but the message might be that we are able to see deeper under the surface and not just see a couple of good results.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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MadMike said:
It's more than that. It's like @sullydnl said. If you criticise the performance on a defeat, then you'll be told you're overreacting or waiting (hoping even) for a defeat to criticise the manager. You're not a "true supporter". Tut, tut, tut. But if you criticise the performance on a victory, then you're the spoiled cry-baby that'll never be satisfied with anything.

There's never a good time to criticise. They will never engage on the actual points. They think you should only support and think of positive thoughts. That's what a "true supporter"(tm) does.

There's no arguing against that level of dogmatism. It's like trying to discuss planetary orbits with a flat earther, some times.
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Only after draws, perhaps?
 

mu4c_20le

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MadMike said:
People are worried about things they observe in our performances and about a persistent pattern of underperformance in Europe under Ole (7 defeats in 11 games in the CL) that seems to stem from bad tactics or game management. He will need to improve significantly. He has a squad that should be challenging for the title and comfortably progressing from the groups into the CL knockouts.
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He faced Barca over two legs with a broken squad that wasn't his, with injuries on top of that. It was Jones Smalling up against Messi, Suarez and Coutinho. Everyone agreed that it was pretty much a free run for him. So now we've suddenly decided to use it against him?
 

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mu4c_20le said:
He faced Barca over two legs with a broken squad that wasn't his, with injuries on top of that. It was Jones Smalling up against Messi, Suarez and Coutinho. Everyone agreed that it was pretty much a free run for him. So now we've suddenly decided to use it against him?
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I mean we looked awful in both legs.

That Barcelona team was a year removed from their Rome capitulation. They weren't this unbeatable team.
 

MadMike

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mu4c_20le said:
He faced Barca over two legs with a broken squad that wasn't his, with injuries on top of that. It was Jones Smalling up against Messi, Suarez and Coutinho. Everyone agreed that it was pretty much a free run for him. So now we've suddenly decided to use it against him?
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The reason he's 4 out of 11 in CL is not because of Barca. We haven't played Barca 11 times, we've only played them twice. It's because of Basaksehir, Leipzig and YB, games he should be winning to get us out of the group stages.

Even if you remove the games from his first 6 months in charge (which is a fair call), he's only 3 out of 7. And those are all games in the group stages.

We will very much use his CL record against him, why wouldn't we?
 
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redshaw

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mu4c_20le said:
He faced Barca over two legs with a broken squad that wasn't his, with injuries on top of that. It was Jones Smalling up against Messi, Suarez and Coutinho. Everyone agreed that it was pretty much a free run for him. So now we've suddenly decided to use it against him?
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Roma and Juve dumped them out in previous years. Liverpool crushed them the year after. Two limp defeats with Pogba and Lukaku and Rashford in the team. I think not being able to even lay a glove on them in two games is really poor considering many other teams beat them or gave them a good game.
 

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meamth said:
Lampard was given so many players and during the season he seems to lost the dressing room and finally the board.

Ole hasn't got to the stage yet in 3 seasons, pretty impressive stuff if you ask me.

Who can blame Ole for entrusting the coaches like Fergie did?

Like I said, I'm judging Ole this season, no trophies, he has to go.
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Yeah the difference being that Fergie moved with the times in terms of coaching by bringing in the likes of Rene & Carlos in the mid 00's whereas Ole is strangely happy to just rely on Utd old boys with little coaching experience is my point
 

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redshaw said:
Roma and Juve dumped them out in previous years. Liverpool crushed them the year after. Two limp defeats with Pogba and Lukaku and Rashford in the team. I think not being able to even lay a glove on them in two games is really poor considering many other teams beat them or gave them a good game.
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Liverpool crushed them the same year. Three weeks later in fact.

But while that is true, Liverpool also lost a game to them 3-0 and they were also a team that finished some 30 points above us in the league. We were not on Liverpool's level. Ole did inherit a shambles from Mourinho and it's not really fair to judge him on those games.
 

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Nou_Camp99 said:
We came 2nd last season. Lost same games as City. Got to a European final. We were 2nd highest scorers in the league too. Yet we are coached poorly apparently.

What you moaners are really saying is we aren't coached as well as a Pep team. That would be a fairer criticism.
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Distant second and second tier European tournament finalists to be fair. No one would be complaining if we lost the league on the last days and lost the UCL final. But that kind of tiny details matter.

I agree, when people say we are poorly coached they're taking the reference of a big club. I guess if you want them to specify we aren't as well coached as City, Chelsea or Liverpool is fair. In the same way when criticizing a player we should specify he's not good as world-class players. Because against pub players they'll certainly be incredible.
 

croadyman

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Eddy_JukeZ said:
A lot of people on here took Fergie's speech at OT to heart and will back the manager all the way.

And they pin for someone to be at the helm 10 + years.

It is what it is.
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Yeah would say that stance pretty much sums up the majority of match going fans
 

MadMike

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mu4c_20le said:
That's better.
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Is it though? Given the context of the opposition in those games?

He's not managed to win an away game in the CL that we were expected to win yet. We've lost against Istanbul, Leipzig and YB now. We're struggling against the minnows that we need to beat to qualify. Playing poorly too.
 

SAFMUTD

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What frustrates me is the feeling or perception about us wasting time and with that our chances to really win big titles. This season will be our best talent wise, next one we'll have an older Ronaldo and older Cavani, possibly be without Pogba and while young players like Rashford, Sancho, Greenwood can still improve I don't think the others will. I think we are seeing Bruno's, Maguire's Varane's and Pogba's best version of themselves. As time goes by the natural thing is their level to drop.

So I'm frustrated that many here are ok with giving Ole another season without preassure, "well yeah lest give him a season to prove himself before we judge him". Well guess what, our team will be weaker next season, all logic points to that so the time is now.

This is our peak, why waste it with Ole? We should have brought a world-class manager a long time ago. Unfortunately the season has already started so we can't be as reactionary to sack Ole right now. But I'd say December is a good time to evaluate and change. It's been proven half season changes can make a positive impact so if nothing miraculously changes and we still arent looking as a well drilled team by December we should definitely pull the trigger.
 

SAFMUTD

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Nou_Camp99 said:
People said he'd not make top 4 in his first full season because he was a PE teacher and took Cardiff down. He came 3rd.

They then said he'd struggle last year to match it as it was a fluke. We came 2nd.

We have now added Sancho, Ronaldo and Varane to the team that came 2nd.

Keep doubting him. He keeps proving people wrong.

LVG didn't finish 2nd. Jose did once but he didn't come 3rd in his other season. So Ole had already surpassed two of the all time greats in league finishes.

We can't keep sacking managers and starting again. Ole deserves to see this out now and see if he can take us there.
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Well to be fair many pointed out that we won't win a thing with Ole, until today he hasn't proved any of those wrong. It's three years and counting.
 

redshaw

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MadMike said:
Liverpool crushed them the same year. Three weeks later in fact.

But while that is true, Liverpool also lost a game to them 3-0 and they were also a team that finished some 30 points above us in the league. We were not on Liverpool's level. Ole did inherit a shambles from Mourinho and it's not really fair to judge him on those games.
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Why pick up on Liverpool, it was just an aside. Roma lost to Barca but also beat them to dump them out the year before our two losses with no goals. We had no threat is the main point, while an average Roma team could give them a game and even knock them out. It's not just results, it's the shambles and non displays that litter the record of 7 losses out of 11. Leipzig away we're two down in minutes.

The Barca match was really a free shot as it was early in Ole's time, I think it's more disappointing when taking everything into account but can understand how some might not want to include it.

I'm pretty supportive of Ole but CL shows he still has to learn a lot fast, it's been a major stumbling block for him. With the squad now we should get through but some of the decisions during the Young Boys loss are really bad. I can accept a loss in those circumstances but taking Fred off after already reducing the midfield with a few minutes to go and end up with Lingard there, I knew there and then it was going to end up 2-1. The time he should've taken Fred off was against PSG before getting sent off but didn't and we again lose that and that follows on to the shambles of the away game at Leipzig where he got it totally wrong. I hope for his and our sake he can have a few calm games and look back at the mess becasue when he has to make important decisions in previous games and our very latest he's been left wanting.
 
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HailtotheKing

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SAFMUTD said:
What frustrates me is the feeling or perception about us wasting time and with that our chances to really win big titles. This season will be our best talent wise, next one we'll have an older Ronaldo and older Cavani, possibly be without Pogba and while young players like Rashford, Sancho, Greenwood can still improve I don't think the others will. I think we are seeing Bruno's, Maguire's Varane's and Pogba's best version of themselves. As time goes by the natural thing is their level to drop.

So I'm frustrated that many here are ok with giving Ole another season without preassure, "well yeah lest give him a season to prove himself before we judge him". Well guess what, our team will be weaker next season, all logic points to that so the time is now.

This is our peak, why waste it with Ole? We should have brought a world-class manager a long time ago. Unfortunately the season has already started so we can't be as reactionary to sack Ole right now. But I'd say December is a good time to evaluate and change. It's been proven half season changes can make a positive impact so if nothing miraculously changes and we still arent looking as a well drilled team by December we should definitely pull the trigger.
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Not only that, it's our best chance because Liverpool didn't strengthen and City didn't get Kane or any kind of decent striker. Now is our best chance for sure.
 

MadMike

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croadyman said:
Letting stuff like this out is not going to improve the moods of people like myself who doubt the ability of Ole and his coaching staff
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To be fair, if you're not good at something you might as well let others do it.

But then you still need to decide how you want to play (formation and tactics) and choose people with a proven pedigree. Coaches who have worked in teams that played and successfully implemented that style.

You can hire people who don't have that experience and who make it up as they go along, improving with trial and error. But that is a long and arduous road and you might find yourself out the door before you figure it out.
 

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Nou_Camp99 said:
Doesn't mean we will win the league, no, but if you sacked a manager after 4 games when they are top of the PL it doesn't look good does it?

What is the message being sent there?

The over reaction to Tuesday has been staggering. It's like you've never seen a game of football before where a team has a man sent off. We never lose that game 11v11. Never.
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Is not only that defeat, it's the game against wolves and Southampton in which we were extremely lucky to have won and tied respectively.

Matter of fact it's we've looked poor in 3 out of 5 games this season, it's the same rollercoaster performances we've been seeing for over two years now.

It's not steady progress, actually the best we've been with Ole was after the covid break two seasons ago. After that I don't think we've reached that heights and it's all been either really highs and lows frequently. We can crush Leipzig and win in Paris but lose in Turkey in the next 15 days. Same today, I think we could beat City and lose to Norwich in the same week, who the feck knows.
 

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croadyman said:
Letting stuff like this out is not going to improve the moods of people like myself who doubt the ability of Ole and his coaching staff
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Ask yourself this: If you were a novice in a high-profile new job, would you surround yourself with people equally as inexperienced and unproven as you or would you try and surround yourself with the best? People that you can learn from. People that will cover the things that you lack. It seems absolutely brainless on the part of Ole and on the club to let him furnish the bench with coaches as inexperienced as he is. One, sure but to have both of them - nuts! You only have to look at what happened to Jose once he got rid of Rui Faria to see the importance of having good coaches.

It's no wonder we see Ole constantly in conversation with Mckenna and Carrick. None of them has a clue.

Can not believe United, one of the biggest football clubs and brands in the world would allow this level of amateurishness.
Then again when you see how they deal with everything else, maybe I do.
 

croadyman

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HailtotheKing said:
Ask yourself this: If you were a novice in a high-profile new job, would you surround yourself with people equally as inexperienced and unproven as you or would you try and surround yourself with the best? People that you can learn from. People that will cover the things that you lack. It seems absolutely brainless on the part of Ole and on the club to let him furnish the bench with coaches as inexperienced as he is. One, sure but to have both of them - nuts! You only have to look at what happened to Jose once he got rid of Rui Faria to see the importance of having good coaches.

It's no wonder we see Ole constantly in conversation with Mckenna and Carrick. None of them has a clue.

Can not believe United, one of the biggest football clubs and brands in the world would allow this level of amateurishness.
Then again when you see how they deal with everything else, maybe I do.
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Couldn't agree more with you it's utterly amateur but certainly not the least bit surprising
 

croadyman

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SAFMUTD said:
What frustrates me is the feeling or perception about us wasting time and with that our chances to really win big titles. This season will be our best talent wise, next one we'll have an older Ronaldo and older Cavani, possibly be without Pogba and while young players like Rashford, Sancho, Greenwood can still improve I don't think the others will. I think we are seeing Bruno's, Maguire's Varane's and Pogba's best version of themselves. As time goes by the natural thing is their level to drop.

So I'm frustrated that many here are ok with giving Ole another season without preassure, "well yeah lest give him a season to prove himself before we judge him". Well guess what, our team will be weaker next season, all logic points to that so the time is now.

This is our peak, why waste it with Ole? We should have brought a world-class manager a long time ago. Unfortunately the season has already started so we can't be as reactionary to sack Ole right now. But I'd say December is a good time to evaluate and change. It's been proven half season changes can make a positive impact so if nothing miraculously changes and we still arent looking as a well drilled team by December we should definitely pull the trigger.
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Absolutely superb post and a point that definitely gets lost with many staunch supporters of Ole
 

mu4c_20le

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croadyman said:
Absolutely superb post and a point that definitely gets lost with many staunch supporters of Ole
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Mate that post is very definition of Harry Hindsight. What good does that rant do? Unless you can go back in time to stop Woody from giving him the contract, or put Dalot off so that he misses his shot entirely. The end bit is almost exactly how the rest of us feel, except we have actual defined criteria, like getting knocked out of the CL groups or going on a bad losing run.
 

NZT-One

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SAFMUTD said:
What frustrates me is the feeling or perception about us wasting time and with that our chances to really win big titles. This season will be our best talent wise, next one we'll have an older Ronaldo and older Cavani, possibly be without Pogba and while young players like Rashford, Sancho, Greenwood can still improve I don't think the others will. I think we are seeing Bruno's, Maguire's Varane's and Pogba's best version of themselves. As time goes by the natural thing is their level to drop.

So I'm frustrated that many here are ok with giving Ole another season without preassure, "well yeah lest give him a season to prove himself before we judge him". Well guess what, our team will be weaker next season, all logic points to that so the time is now.

This is our peak, why waste it with Ole? We should have brought a world-class manager a long time ago. Unfortunately the season has already started so we can't be as reactionary to sack Ole right now. But I'd say December is a good time to evaluate and change. It's been proven half season changes can make a positive impact so if nothing miraculously changes and we still arent looking as a well drilled team by December we should definitely pull the trigger.
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Good post and I agree with the sentiment except for one significant point: I think the dice have fallen already. Which is just as good as it isn't good. Like you said, sure there is a chance, that we can bring someone in January who can have a great effect, but how likely is that? There are Tuchel-situations, but they are just as rare as the total feckups are rare. And like you also said, to come to the conclusion that we have to use the emergency exit, shit must have hit the fan already, so what is really there to be gained?

Don't get me wrong, I am not opposed from evaluating the manager position, far from it. But I am pretty unsure, if it would be a wise decision to change it halfway through the season. We have to be smart. For once be smart, lets not get carried away by emotions (be that happiness like the premature permanent manager decision or be it disappointment in our fictional scenario). I want the club to evaluate the position and the outlook, to take a decision but do it behind closed doors, pull strings in the background to learn about availabilities. I pray to god that we are already constantly having somebody on the watch to scout managers and I hope there is some research we can make use of when the day is there, but let this be a smart decision with as much pressure as possible.

Everybody can think of Ole whatever he/she wants but he managed to set the bar higher than Moyes, LVG and Mourinho did. We have something to lose lets not waste that, this thinking got us the three guys I mentioned.
 

King Azaz the Unabridged

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Widow said:
No, you had an opinion
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"3 of the other top 7 sides in the PL last season played a 4-2-3-1 in the majority of games" is not an opinion.

"No other side in the top 7 of the PL after four games this season plays a 4-2-3-1" isn't an opinion either, of course.

But I'll leave it to you to decide which of these facts carries more weight when you're trying to argue an entire formation is dated: the one measured over 4 games or the one measured over 38 :')
 

redshaw

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The Europa Roma games can get forgotten about but we were 2-1 down at OT, the response was great of course but we pretty much just went for it after calamitous start, we can be very lethal. We then go to Rome and lose 3-2, not so bad scoreline, watch the game for context and they were very close to knocking us out, De Gea is just blocking point blank shots on autopilot, we absolutely collapsed in that game as well, our goal for the match was like an arkanoid arcade game, Roma should've had a lot more goals. Setup and preparations are a very bad running theme in Europe then it's all flung out the window, we then just blitz teams.
 
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big rons sovereign

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mu4c_20le said:
He faced Barca over two legs with a broken squad that wasn't his, with injuries on top of that. It was Jones Smalling up against Messi, Suarez and Coutinho. Everyone agreed that it was pretty much a free run for him. So now we've suddenly decided to use it against him?
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And Young. Trying to Cruyff turn Messi 20 yards from goal.
 

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croadyman said:
Letting stuff like this out is not going to improve the moods of people like myself who doubt the ability of Ole and his coaching staff
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I doubt he cares about your opinion or mine on his tactical abilities tbh. As long as the players buy into it then that's what counts.
 

mu4c_20le

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TheMagicFoolBus said:
Don't remember the specifics but it was "Moanchester United fans are an awful fanbase" or something along those lines
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No, it was we are an awfully supported team. The change was so subtle that I didn't even notice until the OP protested.
 
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