They were saying this last season and Gary Neville was saying this too so we'll have to see how this progresses over the season as its early days
We are an awfully coached team
- Thread starter bond19821982
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Do you think managers plan out their subs at half-time or something? You're moaning about Ole making perfectly sensible subs, while suggesting he should be planning them in advance, as if he has knowledge of how the game will develop and how he'll need to respond.
It all depends on how the game is developing, of course. You don't make those decisions at half time, even if it's a 87 mill player.
Sancho's price went up £14m overnight?!
And if we're being pedantic, which you clearly are, then De Gea's save prevented us from drawing but Lingard/Matic (and therefore Ole's subs) won us the game.
The sort of structures and patterns of play we're talking about are pretty basic and self-evident aspects of football. Books have been written about it, managers openly speak about it as part of their methods, it's even a part of high level coaching courses like the UEFA A license and Pro Diploma. For example if you read this material for the UEFA A license you can see them talking about the exact same things we are using the specific term "patterns of play".
But even without knowing that, you can actually see it in games with your own eyes. How did you think Man City repeatedly scored the same cut-back goal if patterns of play weren't a thing? Coincidence?
The fact that you seem baffled by these ideas and imagine them as some sort of mad idea people on the internet have come up with doesn't reflect particularly well on your football knowledge.
It makes me wonder what you actually understood was happening when, say, the great Barcelona and Spain teams were dominating games. You were aware that they weren't playing all those tikki-taka patterns on instinct, right? That their positions and passing patterns had been pre-drilled? If so I don't know why you're so baffled by the idea that other teams do it too, or that it's widely known information.
But that's exactly what you're saying
Arguing with another member
Well what we know for sure is that I read your clueless crap. Hope you feel better now after two people took time to explain what patterns of play are which you answered in a very sophisticated way. It is astonishing to me how much some people seem to not care how moronic they depict themselves on the internet. But I guess I am just old-fashioned.
Totally missed my point. Its mad that clueless fans call out Ole for not doing it. Like you have the ability to analyse it.
Why dont you work in football, genius?
As ive said, total guff
Youve given a guff long winded explanation of primary school football crap (x plays to y who overlaps z and returns the ball). Wow, mindblowing. you seem to think that twot is rocket science level and is evidence you can spot deficincies in oles coaching. You are a complete fool. You are talking nonsense.
You are not coming across well at all in this thread.
Sorry to hear that, Your opinion validates my existence.
I’m watching PSG and thinking we really wouldn’t be any better off under Poch. So so boring.
Uhoh, hope you've got yer tinhat.
Of course we have the ability to analyse it. Loads of people do. Analysing it isn't particularly difficult at all.
What we can't do is coach it, which is much more difficult than analysing it. That's where the actual expertise comes in and why we're not all football coaches. After all, all those high level courses aren't there to teach you about these concepts, they're there to teach you how to coach these concepts.
You seem to think there's some sort of secret information involved here that people outside the top level of football don't have access to. When in reality these are all widely published and freely available ideas that you can learn or be taught without any involvement in football whatsoever. Just because you don't have that knowledge doesn't change the fact that it's widely available enough that other people do. I mean I just linked you to an easily googleable document that would teach you a fair bit in itself.
PSG played absolute tumescent football in the CL game as well. Were almost outplayed.
It is quite the clunky game too. Every 5 minutes someone gets their head kicked in.
It’s smash and grab stuff really. They’re defending deep to draw their opponents out and then hoping that front four do something on the break.
It‘s not very watchable and it’s not going to get the best out of Messi. He likes to be in a team where players come towards him when he’s got the ball, not run away.
I think our lack of reliance on a "system" kinda suits us at the moment. We have genuine star quality up front, and unpredictable players that can come up with a moment of real quality.
What's lacking is just that quality in midfield. Chelsea for example, look a team that are brilliantly coached, and very settled in their system.
Credit to Tuchel for that, but I don't think we necessarily need to follow that blueprint to be successful. I don't remember us being anything special tactically under SAF.
What's lacking is just that quality in midfield. Chelsea for example, look a team that are brilliantly coached, and very settled in their system.
Credit to Tuchel for that, but I don't think we necessarily need to follow that blueprint to be successful. I don't remember us being anything special tactically under SAF.
We’re probably not a ‘badly’ coached team, there were big games last season where the defensive shape/structure/pressing intensity were well evident, the problem is that our rivals are better and this is going to be our downfall over the course of the season. I think we’ll get better as the season progresses and we’ll be considered amongst the elite, but we won’t win anything (maybe a domestic cup). Liverpool or Chelsea will win the league this year.
Some just won't be happy until we play exactly the same way as City.
With Ronaldo, Bruno, Greenwood I think it’s ok to rely a lot on individual brilliance and. With these players it’s important to not be to constrained by a system, but have a nice balance. Ad hoc individual brilliance could also add something to our play.
I can only talk about by stance about that but I am pretty sure, that many would agree: I don't want us to shift completely away from that individual approach. Lets say it is a balance where on one hand you have total individualism (Brazil 1974 (don't know a better example, not even sure they are a good one
) and you have total collectivism (LVG's United) on the other hand, then I am totally fine to not just stay in the middle but be tending heavily towards individualism. It would just be good to have at least a bit of the other stuff available for some situations. And our slow builtup causes us more problems than it solves, so there would be a need right there.If anything, the last few seasons have shown us just how underrated Fergie's last few teams were tactically.
This place and all the other football forums in that 2009-13 period were full of complaints about our lack of control in midfield, slow passing, lack of physicality, etc etc.
We still scored boatloads of goals in each of those seasons, averaging 85 points. Go back and watch the goal compilations from those seasons and it's amazing how simple we make it look: use the full width of the pitch, drag defences out of position with movement, and overwhelm them.
It's no coincidence we went from unstoppable to borderline midtable when that coaching team left with Fergie and Moyes came in with his plan to play long balls into the channels and put in X crosses per game. Haven't come close to scoring 80 goals in the league since.
He is right, soon you will see Bailly and Jones with another 10 year contract at 250k/week
Nothing wrong with individual brilliance, but you make it sound like it's either one (system) or another (individual brilliance). It's not exclusive, the one works for another. The right system will create more chances for Ronaldo to score, that's the whole point of coaching - the team works to exploit strengths.
It is pretty worrying that we were even put in a situation to be drawing that game. You get an 88th minute goal to take the lead - against a clearly tired opposition - you don't give up a penalty in the 92nd.
We really lack nous. Not sure that's coaching or the players.
We really lack nous. Not sure that's coaching or the players.
We have scored the highest number of goals in the league so far something which we did for a large part of last season. If our attacking coaching was so non existent and had no patterns drilled into them that wouldn't be the case. Unless you think all our goals are down to individual brilliance or players making decisions on the spot.
These kneejerk analysis only come out every other week when we score 1 or 2 but still win the games but are nowhere to be seen when we are scoring 4s and 5s. City the holy grail of attacking coaching and patterns of play have failed to score twice in five games. So let's wait for us to start struggling to get goals before we have to worry about our attackers not being coached properly.
please don’t.. it’s absolutely brutal to watch. That’s not football, that’s one man’s vision of football and in my opinion. It’ just horrible
Poch just threw his players on the pitch and told them to do whatever they'd want
It would have been 3-1 and game over if Atkinson wasn’t a cnut.
Messi is the real coach of PSG.
I said in a post before that that we obviously have some structures and patterns. It would be insane to think otherwise, we're not run by people new to football.
I'm saying that those structures and patterns need to be better. In the same way we obviously had set-piece ideas and structures last season, but they needed to be better too, so we hired a new coach to specifically improve us in that regard.
And as I also pointed out in that prior post, it isn't just about attacking. Coaching these things helps defensively too, as you're less vulnerable to the opposition press, less likely to give the ball away in dangerous areas and less likely to get caught out of position in transition.
Hard to complain when we are doing well in the league but our performances look 'unconvincing as title contenders'
Patterns of play
Near certain you go back to last season in this same thread was ladz in rubbishing tjay term who actually done their coaching badges
What I mean is that I feel like SAF left a lot of personal responsibility on the players on the pitch to make decisions, whereas Pep and Tuchel seem very focused on positioning, set-up etc.
You've hit the nail on the head though. We played a very simple, but effective brand of football. But it's also worth noting SAF had a brilliant squad at his disposal. Someone always seemed to deliver when it mattered.
One thing I feel we always had was someone who could beat a man. Ronaldo, Giggs, Nani, Valencia to name a few. Having that ability in your team is underrated, especially with today's posession-based game. It's why I feel like we greatly miss Rashford at the moment.
Defo the coaching for Shaw to leave his arm hanging out like that for the penalty, and prob Coaching fault VAR and aktinson weren't interested in reviewing clear penalty shouts
Yeah, I pretty much agree with you on this. This thread is the ideal place for all these geniuses to get together and pat each other on the back. I wish they’d stay in here but they plaster this crap all over the forum.
Of course, but with Atkinson that's a given.
Nothing wrong with being a Utd fan who is happy for the win but who knows we were bailed out by a worldie and our keepers first penalty save since he was u9’s! Had we of drawn, people would be glossing over the performance less. Forget possession stats- with your own two eyes- did we dominate West Ham and create genuine chances that should have been converted? Or were we slow and pretty sterile most of the game? I’d say the latter...the point being, with the squad we have, we shouldn’t be relying on late comebacks and individuals saving our ass. Great win- not a great performance by any stretch.
Yeah Its like a clueless prats version of the socrates method