Sloppy passing and touches

The defense so far is pretty similar to what it was in early 19/20 season where we seemed to concede a lot of goals to worldies (Longstaff, Neves, Villa's goal in 2-2) or individual errors (goal vs Bournemouth, Palace winner in the 2-1, etc.).

Even this year, while we've conceded a lot of chances that seriously needs to be addressed, the goals we've conceded have in most cases been either unlucky (Southampton and WHU goal after deflection from Fred and Varane, goal vs Villa where we didn't even ask for VAR check for offside) /individual errors (Fred vs Everton) or worldies (Ayling).

Having said that, we've had a fair share of luck on our side as well - where some of our errors haven't been punished - the HM mistake vs Villa is one such instance, the Southampton chance vs us, the Davies chance yesterday. All in all, I think the defence is still gelling and it might be a few more games before these errors are ironed out

Solius said:

Anyone noticed how often we do this now?

It’s not a coaching issue so please leave any Ole shit at the door. I’ve just been so confused how often a pass is played slightly behind or slightly in front of a player. We’ve ruined so much momentum by accidentally playing a ball behind someone and forcing them backwards, or too far ahead causing the runner to commit a foul or commit too high up.

I think it’s so important in games to have the passing right so the runner doesn’t have to break stride. It helps sustain attacks and prevents us playing our way backwards into trouble so often. If a pass to Shaw is too quick and requires him to stretch for it and take a couple touches to get under control then it’s too late. The opposition will have reset and all he can do is go backwards.

Then you’ve got some awful first touches from players. This is stuff that is down to their abilities. I know confidence can play a part but at the very least you would expect the basics to not be so consistently off.

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Every player plays passes behind on running players so they have to check back.

I've been saying it for a years, fecking the most annoying thing professional players do and inexcusable

We can start by playing VdB and see if theres any improvement.. considering, well, he is here we might as well use him when the other options are shit anyway.

Opening poster gave Ole a free pass here but he hit it too hard and ball ran past him.
Seriously though, it can't be down to coaching. These players should be aware of the basic laws of physics from their academy days and know how to time a pass!
It's got to be the casual attitude we see so much like when we don't hit the ground running or we take the foot of the pedal after going one up.
I don't know why this should be but it's infuriating to see it happen so often.

Foxbatt said:

Actually it is. You get players to practice what they do on the pitch. You work out the movements on and off the ball. An occasional miss pass is not the issue. It is the repeated occurrence. A good example was when AWB air swiped a cross in the Everton area. That's entirely on him. So was the corner from Bruno. Maybe the mess up of Fred too. But we have huge coaching issues in our way of playing and our structure of the team.
The other issue is that players simply don't listen to the coaches any time. I simply can't believe that happens always at a top club.

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You really think it's just the coaching that's the issue with AWB, Fred and McT when it comes to passing and ability on the ball? They've all improved on the ball, but there's a limit to how good they are going to get, or else someone like John O'Shea could have just easily been one of the best midfielders in the world. Our real problem is that these players are too important for the defensive structure of the team and if we play someone else we suddenly look far more likely to concede goals. That also comes from having the likes of Ronaldo and Pogba on the pitch at the same time.

The longer Ole has been manager the more conservative his tactics. He needs to recover his joy of being in the job, its beginning to wear him down. Although the team now has better players than 3 years ago, they are influenced by this negativity. They play safe too often which conversely means thay make more mistakes. Footballers pay better when free of fear, at this level 95% of the difference of performance lies in what is going through the stuff between the ears. Being a top player , manager and coach at a club like United means being able to handle pressure and not let it affect your performance. The best United players through history are the ones that thrive on that pressure. Not many in this team have that attribute.

Solius said:

I honestly don’t know but that’s probably why I’m not a manager.

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Okay, but you don't need to be a manager to know the basic solutions. Improve the players (on a technical or mental level), improve the system to provide better passing options (probably not useful here as you're talking about 5 yard passes), or change the players. In regards to Ole does he appear to be doing any of them?

I think, the truth is in the middle of what has been stated in this thread already.

Of course professionally footballers should be able to make simple passes like 90 times out of a 100. And I am sure they are capable of that, otherwise they wouldn't be in our club or in the PL whatsoever. When these mistakes are happening on the pitch, I think, it is connected with sloppyness and not enough focus and (for a few players) that their technical abilities are borderline.
But, and I think, that is where the coaching comes into play, I am sure, we could reduce the number of these mistakes to a great extent, if coaching would be able to create another "environment". Be that by more preparation of moves, repeatedly trained patterns of play or the introduction of positional play - all these things can create an environment, where not enough focus or sloppyness aren't as likely as they are right now. If AWB is instructed to either play it long to his winger, play it progressively to his midfield partner or punt it out, he wouldn't be needed to asses every other option as well, which will result in less stress and more mental capabilities for execution. If we wouldn't be setup in a way, where all our forward players start running away from the ball at some point to "attack space" I guess, the midfielders wouldn't be needed to assess the percentage of 4 difficult passes into space. If we would try to be more patient in the built up, it can also have a calming influence on everybody.

At the end of the day, of course it is on the players. But a modern management is supposed to create a system, an environment where the players thrive and that definitely includes taking the sting out of certain situations by preparation.

Not a coaching issue?

a player would mess up a simple pass and im at home losing my mind, the camera cuts to Ole and he is just sitting down. Clearly Ole doesnt care that much.

Leftback99 said:

I often blame the manager for my poor touches playing Sunday league.

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Your poor touches are why you are playing in Sunday League and not the PL.

Dinghy said:

You really think it's just the coaching that's the issue with AWB, Fred and McT when it comes to passing and ability on the ball? They've all improved on the ball, but there's a limit to how good they are going to get, or else someone like John O'Shea could have just easily been one of the best midfielders in the world. Our real problem is that these players are too important for the defensive structure of the team and if we play someone else we suddenly look far more likely to concede goals. That also comes from having the likes of Ronaldo and Pogba on the pitch at the same time.

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If you ask players to do things they are can't do it's silly. If they are defenders then they should defend. We have conceded too many goals because both of our FBs are forward of the ball and getting turned over. Yes their movements and where they pass is up to the coaching. You can say lack of tactics rather coaching but you can coach players on and off the movements. You don't coach them ball control obviously at this stage of their careers but they wouldn't be professional players in any decent league let alone the PL without extremely good ball control and passing.

Foxbatt said:

Your poor touches are why you are playing in Sunday League and not the PL.

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Not the lack of coaching then?

Sloppiness is an issue indeed and its infuriating and annoying.. we can't progress play smoothly and we can't create or score goals because of sloppiness in first touches and passes..

The root cause for that is steeped in bad coaching

Passing sloppiness means that we don't train well. Training isn't effective so players have not developed chemistry. Definitely coaching is at fault.

The OP is right. The fact that our players play so many sloppy passes is not down to coaching. However, a lot of it can be corrected by the manager if he puts his foot down.

There are 4 main culprits of sloppy passes in the team:

1) AWB - He’s the best defensive FB in the league. But he is not the required quality on the ball. He does make a lot of mistakes especially if pressed. But we just have to live with him for now and hope he keeps improving.

2) Fred - He has been so so poor. Often he misplaces simple passes. Other times he takes too many touches and delays passes. Either way, the team suffers quite a bit due to him.

3) Mctominay - Aside from the fact that he hides quite often, Mct also is a pretty poor passer of the ball (certainly by a United midfielders standards). He also lacks creativity and imagination and often takes multiple touches before releasing passes.

4) Bruno - Of course I love Bruno. But he tries to play the Hollywood passes too often. He needs to be told to use better judgement and slow it down sometimes. Especially when we are losing the midfield
battle, he needs to drop deeper and play 1-2 touch short passes instead of trying to create a chance with every pass.

Playing Fred and Mct together is on Ole. He has options on the bench. Van De Beek needs to be given minutes so he can play in one of the MF positions. Pogba also needs to be asked to play there.

And Bruno also needs to be coached that he cannot have all the freedom to play any kind of pass he likes all throughout every game.

I think this is down to individual quality in many areas of the team. Or at least the stylistic makeup of our squad. You can't really compare it to a City side that have abundant technical ability everywhere. That's what people miss when they say we have just as much quality. We might do in terms of statistical performance, dynamic attributes etc, but in terms of touch and passing we are miles off.

We have a number of areas of the pitch in which play is very likely to break down via a bad touch, or a bad weight of pass that other sides simply do not. This isn't just something common to Ole, it is something some of them have shown over a period of time under different management.

AWB, McTominay, Fred have fairly average technique and that's the engine room and half the right side that then become deficient due to technical quality.

Then you have a number of players with inconsistent technical delivery. They are skilled but their mentality is to force things and not play percentages. Bruno, Pogba fall into this category.

You have the ponderous ones. I would put Maguire, and Lindelof in this category. Not technically poor but play with a low tempo. This could be due to options and therefore coaching, to be fair, so it's a different case.

Then you have the ones that are simply inconsistent in performance. They can have games where they link up well and then stinkers where every pass is questionable. Rashford, Martial, Sancho has started this way. Our forwards have always been inconsistent and at one time we blamed age but at this point it seems to be part of their game.

Personally I don't think a change of manager would change this fundamental quality of our side unless they made a number of important transfers to address the main stumbling blocks. They may get us playing more to our strengths and therefore better performance and results but I think it's just foolish to think we currently have the same technical players as other sides, we simply do not.

Solius said:

I think he wants to change the players yes. I know he praises Fred and McTominay but I think it’s purely man management and that he knew a midfielder was bottom of the list in the summer.

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They're his first choice midfield pairing despite him signing a midfielder though and having a few transfer windows to do something about it. Fred in particular makes these passing mistakes so often but there are no consequences from the manager.

Solius said:

Some managers prefer not to show every little emotion. If you go berserk any time a pass is misplaced it could show that your team are a bit off their game plan. Sit relaxed and it can look like you’re not too worried because you have confidence in your team to get the job done in the end. Just because he’s not a passion merchant doesn’t mean he doesn’t care.

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The two best managers in the league are on the touchline barking at their teams but yes Ole should remain not trying to be “passion merchant”.

Sir Alex in his old age still lived on the touchline by the way. Was he a passion merchant too?

RedStarUnited said:

The two best managers in the league are on the touchline barking at their teams but yes Ole should remain not trying to be “passion merchant”.

Sir Alex in his old age still lived on the touchline by the way. Was he a passion merchant too?

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Especially when the team is making these miss placed passes all the time under Ole.

There is still a YouTube video of SAF effing at Evans on the touchline. Every time we made a mistake SAF is on the touchline having his say. Not only at the players but also the 4th official too.

Solius said:

fecks sake read the damn thread. I’m talking about basic passes. It’s not a coaches job to show a footballer the right way to pass the ball 5 yards.

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Actually, it is. The thing about passes is that great football teams like Pep's or Klopp teams are basically ingrained to know how quickly to pass, in what direction to pass, how to pass under press, etc. This is also why United is so incompetent at stringing passes or playing one touch football and why we dwell so much on the ball. Obviously, some players aren't exactly good at it like Fred, but generally speaking even someone like Fred can and should be taught how to play one touch football if you had the right coaches for the job. We don't and it's obvious. When our players take the ball, they don't know who to pass it to, that's pretty obvious. In terms of movement of the ball, we have no urgency. This is all due to the coaching and nothing else.

If a team like Brighton can play fast flowing free attacking football with one-two touch passes, then so can we. Look at Xavi Al-Sadd's. Their entire team costs less than Ronaldo's yearly salary and look what they do with the ball. ANY player can be coached to play the right football, so long as you have coaches that know what they are doing. Obviously, as I said, some footballers would be better at it than others. We will never be like prime Barcelona with Fred and Mc in midfield, but we can play pretty decent football regardless. The reason we do not play it is obvious and you know it.

The passing is sloppy because we have a good number of players who aren't very good at passing. It's that simple. Particularly with those short, quick type of passes that progress the play and shift the opposition around.

Any other explanation is just an overcomplication.

Fred, McTominay, AWB, Bruno, Pogba, Rashford Martial and now even Ronaldo.

In slightly differing ways none of them have a reliable passing game.

The answer is to cut that down to about two players who make up for it in different ways. Like City playing Walker for his pace, Liverpool with Henderson for his all round physicality.

Solius said:

Zidane won 3 CL’s managing Madrid and was usually very calm on the touchline. There’s no correlation.

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The point in making is, if the team is constantly passing badly and the manager isnt shouting or telling anyone off about it, he is probably fine with it and diesnt see it as much of an issue as some of us do.

And by the way Zidane was always on the touchline. Ole sits and watches the game from a little monitor a lot of the time.

Deery said:

You see this is one of the reasons I’d rather we signed a Verratti or Modric type player for midfield than a Rice because a calming influence would help the entire team and passing ability is very important to taking the next step. At the minute everything in midfield is very rushed and hectic even when Matic comes on the football is a little better but he’s too old now, imagine a peak Scholes for example the passing would improve 10 fold throughout the team with a passing influence in the like that.

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No need for peak Scholes, Carrick would suffice

You started off by saying it’s not a coaching issue. In other words your deflecting the blame and trying to dig out another reason.
It is a coaching issue but as you said leave the Ole shit at the door says to me your not interested in opinions if those who do blame Ole and the buck stops with him but let’s not let that get in the way of your agenda!

Solius said:

Its not even like I’m defending the coaching in here. Just pointing out a different problem but you just get a barrage of the current hot topic.

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If people think the issue you are talking about is actually related to coaching then telling people not to mention the coaching isn't going to work is it.

It’s partly spacing and coaching, but you also have some very poor passers in our team in positions that are often on the ball. Namely AWB, McT, and Fred all being poor passers. Even when they complete a pass, watch how it’s placed into the recipient, compared to how Pogba plays forward passes to help players take space. Fred constantly underhits passes and they are often on the back foot of who he is passing too.

it definitely stems from team chemistry. we look like a bunch of individuals that have never played together and don’t know what they’re going to attempt.

the most obvious one is the greenwood/mctominay 1-2 that went wrong.

why is mctominay running passed him? it just seems like either the players don’t understand their roles or how to build possession. decision making at the wrong time.

Abraxas said:

I think this is down to individual quality in many areas of the team. Or at least the stylistic makeup of our squad. You can't really compare it to a City side that have abundant technical ability everywhere. That's what people miss when they say we have just as much quality. We might do in terms of statistical performance, dynamic attributes etc, but in terms of touch and passing we are miles off.

We have a number of areas of the pitch in which play is very likely to break down via a bad touch, or a bad weight of pass that other sides simply do not. This isn't just something common to Ole, it is something some of them have shown over a period of time under different management.

AWB, McTominay, Fred have fairly average technique and that's the engine room and half the right side that then become deficient due to technical quality.

Then you have a number of players with inconsistent technical delivery. They are skilled but their mentality is to force things and not play percentages. Bruno, Pogba fall into this category.

You have the ponderous ones. I would put Maguire, and Lindelof in this category. Not technically poor but play with a low tempo. This could be due to options and therefore coaching, to be fair, so it's a different case.

Then you have the ones that are simply inconsistent in performance. They can have games where they link up well and then stinkers where every pass is questionable. Rashford, Martial, Sancho has started this way. Our forwards have always been inconsistent and at one time we blamed age but at this point it seems to be part of their game.

Personally I don't think a change of manager would change this fundamental quality of our side unless they made a number of important transfers to address the main stumbling blocks. They may get us playing more to our strengths and therefore better performance and results but I think it's just foolish to think we currently have the same technical players as other sides, we simply do not.

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LVG made us play a possession heavy style (granted with no penetration whatsoever but this thread is about passing). LVG made it work with Fellaini, Valencia or Smalling in his side. I would agree with your categorisation of players but to close the door that stuff therefor isn't possible is mental in my eyes. How does Brighton do it? How was Swansea back in the day doing it - with Leon Britton and that Korean guy in the squad. I don't think the OP suggests that we have to achieve 100% passing accuracy or some sort of tiki taka and if other teams make it work with lesser players, than I don't see, why we are so poor in general - certainly not because of the player material. Lets get serious here - it isn't like we don't struggle with it, when Matic or Donny or Mata are in the side. It is more or less the same. Fred is no Xavi, AWB no Dani Alves but they are good players and I am sure, we could get so much more out of them with a few tweaks.

Is this the new angle now? When the doubts about Ole start to creep in a bit? Dismissing the squad as not incompatible with Oles way of playing the game? Because it feels a little bit like it.

Marwood said:

The passing is sloppy because we have a good number of players who aren't very good at passing. It's that simple. Particularly with those short, quick type of passes that progress the play and shift the opposition around.

Any other explanation is just an overcomplication.

Fred, McTominay, AWB, Bruno, Pogba, Rashford Martial and now even Ronaldo.

In slightly differing ways none of them have a reliable passing game.

The answer is to cut that down to about two players who make up for it in different ways. Like City playing Walker for his pace, Liverpool with Henderson for his all round physicality.

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Because the simplest answer is usually the best... Isn't it weird, that we accepted this "good number of players who aren't very good at passing" in our team? It feels a bit discouraging, how fast people seem to be ready to dismiss 3 players before looking at the way we play. Other teams make it work. Nobody expects 100% passing completion.

The Tuchel interview from Rio should be watched by all who doubt about the value of coaching as he talks about movements and passing and space etc.

It is a problem, and becomes particularly obvious when you watch our rivals play; how brave they are with their passing and how much they trust each other's touches. It really affects our ability to play out from the back when our players are too afraid to play it to each other when there's opposition players nearby.

I don't agree this isn't a coaching problem though. Liverpool's players for instance are not that much better than ours technically; they have strengths over us in some positions, us over them in others. But the larger fact is that most of those players are technically at a higher level than they were when they joined the club. That's simply not a coincidence.

NZT-One said:

LVG made us play a possession heavy style (granted with no penetration whatsoever but this thread is about passing). LVG made it work with Fellaini, Valencia or Smalling in his side. I would agree with your categorisation of players but to close the door that stuff therefor isn't possible is mental in my eyes. How does Brighton do it? How was Swansea back in the day doing it - with Leon Britton and that Korean guy in the squad. I don't think the OP suggests that we have to achieve 100% passing accuracy or some sort of tiki taka and if other teams make it work with lesser players, than I don't see, why we are so poor in general - certainly not because of the player material. Lets get serious here - it isn't like we don't struggle with it, when Matic or Donny or Mata are in the side. It is more or less the same. Fred is no Xavi, AWB no Dani Alves but they are good players and I am sure, we could get so much more out of them with a few tweaks.

Is this the new angle now? When the doubts about Ole start to creep in a bit? Dismissing the squad as not incompatible with Oles way of playing the game? Because it feels a little bit like it.


Because the simplest answer is usually the best... Isn't it weird, that we accepted this "good number of players who aren't very good at passing" in our team? It feels a bit discouraging, how fast people seem to be ready to dismiss 3 players before looking at the way we play. Other teams make it work. Nobody expects 100% passing completion.

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In reality Brighton don't pass it better than us. They don't control it better than us either. You can guarantee that by the end of the season the stats will reflect this and the position in the league table will too. People just get carried away with these lower table sides and what the managers are doing because they're perceived to have crap players. It was the same with Swansea.

These teams only have to survive and knock the ball about to earn admirers. If they get smashed occasionally and lose a lot of games who cares? Manchester United are always looked through a completely different lens so I never like these comparisons to such sides, it just doesn't make any sense to compare in my opinion due to the gap in expectation.

The point of comparison is really our team compared to our rivals in terms of technical quality. That is where we perhaps come up short, especially in a few key positions.

It's 75% the coaching, 20% McFred being shite and 5% Bruno being wasteful.

Solius said:

Anyone noticed how often we do this now?

It’s not a coaching issue so please leave any Ole shit at the door. I’ve just been so confused how often a pass is played slightly behind or slightly in front of a player. We’ve ruined so much momentum by accidentally playing a ball behind someone and forcing them backwards, or too far ahead causing the runner to commit a foul or commit too high up.

I think it’s so important in games to have the passing right so the runner doesn’t have to break stride. It helps sustain attacks and prevents us playing our way backwards into trouble so often. If a pass to Shaw is too quick and requires him to stretch for it and take a couple touches to get under control then it’s too late. The opposition will have reset and all he can do is go backwards.

Then you’ve got some awful first touches from players. This is stuff that is down to their abilities. I know confidence can play a part but at the very least you would expect the basics to not be so consistently off.

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You missed passes that went straight to opponents’ feet. Happens far too often to my liking. That’s definitely not Ole and his coaches’ fault,

Abraxas said:

In reality Brighton don't pass it better than us. They don't control it better than us either. You can guarantee that by the end of the season the stats will reflect this and the position in the league table will too. People just get carried away with these lower table sides and what the managers are doing because they're perceived to have crap players. It was the same with Swansea.

These teams only have to survive and knock the ball about to earn admirers. If they get smashed occasionally and lose a lot of games who cares? Manchester United are always looked through a completely different lens so I never like these comparisons to such sides, it just doesn't make any sense to compare in my opinion due to the gap in expectation.

The point of comparison is really our team compared to our rivals in terms of technical quality. That is where we perhaps come up short, especially in a few key positions.

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Look I understand what you mean and your statements are correct, but when other people use Citys players and their "technical superiority" to explain, why we can't string a few passes together, then I think, it is only logical to also have a look below us. But - for what its worth - fine, don't look at Brighton for passing, just remember LVG days of United. How long did it take us to be very dominantly possession wise? A few weeks? Players who weren't used to that style, players like Smalling, Fellaini etc.

Lets not get distracted by the pro's and con's of some sidequests like how good of an example Brighton is. It is apparent that we lack something in passing. We have the same things happening when it is Dalot playing for AWB - exactly the same. It isn't -just- a few players who lack technical skills - it is the whole team who doesn't seem to maximize their potential passing wise.

DoctorEvil said:

I do not think it is a new problem. It's something that have been going on for the last 6-7 years, IMO.

And I do think it is a coaching issue, at least in the sense that it is something that should be noticed, monitored, and minimized.

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Tbf we didn't have the passing issue under LVG, it's literally because of passing from side to side and more passing he was sacked.

It's a coaching issue for sure.

If you don't train for the difficult situations, then when faced in the simple situation you're more likely to messed it up. Because you're already exhaust yourself in dealing with the difficult situations. Also because you don't train your passing enough, you lacked the confidence in your team mates, and this will lead to bad passes too.

I think Liverpool midfield is not that much better than us, their familiarity and confidence with each other is so much higher that it bodes very well for their passing in any situation.

Eplel said:

It's Ole's fault, lack of coaching and a proper system puts players in vulnerable positions way more often that it should happen.

Nice try.

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Bingo. When there’s an automatic system of play your rhythm just hums. You don’t miss a beat. What you’re seeing is just noise on a pitch. No harmony. Oles fault