Why so many knee-jerk reactions and negativity 7 games in?

I just wonder if the people that are saying “it’s only 7 games” will still feel that was the right attitude if we are out of the CL and the title race in December.

So many signs (stubbornness with team selection, failures in semi-finals/important games, constant collapses in form, the pattern over the last 20 games, the manager having no history of making a top football team play consistently good football, no coherence after 3 years in charge) point to the fact that he won’t produce this season. We can’t then feign surprise if he doesn’t.

The time to act to get the most out of yet another season, and the fantastic squad that we have, is now.

There will just be lamenting in December, despite the signs being clear for a long time now. It’s not about 7 games, it’s about the desire not to see another season, with these footballers, wasted on a hope and a prayer, despite the ever increasing evidence to the contrary.

Because of the fixtures we have played and the ones we are about to play… 7 points dropped already is terrible.

I can't believe there are people that think it is actually about the '7 games'. They'd do well to include the 3 matches in the CL and League Cup.

Also, why is 2nd and 3rd place being celebrated like some trophies? We actually havent won anything under Ole. No one can take our 2nd place from us but fact is, Liverpool had an insane injury crisis and as soon as that was being resolved they showed to be an easily better side than us, Chelsea had Lampard for a big part of the season. I think they are around our level but Tuchel is a far better manager who was able to push them to CL victory, but they aren't too great, neither are we.

SEVEN (games to decide the future of the multiverse)
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/seven-games-to-decide-the-future-of-the-multiverse.464754/

Bilbo said:

This coaches thing never sits well with me. We have to assume that the club - and this is not just Ole, we have a lot of senior people at this club with a view on how things are run - are either collectively completely blind to a team of coaches not fit for purpose, or that we actually do have a coaching setup that they are all currently satisfied with. The latter seems far more logical than the former to me. It's considerably easier and more cost effective to improve that than it is to improve the playing staff, so I just don't see any reason why we wouldn't be out there bringing in better people if it were seen to be beneficial

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Yes that’s what I’m scared of and what I think. That they are all happy with it. How though? And how could he as a relative novice to such a position think that hiring Carrick and McKenna would be sufficient when he has seen first hand the importance Fergie placed on having good coaches? Who while doing so was an infinitely better coach than Ole ever will be. It blows my mind.

Plant0x84 said:

Surely it can’t be that cut and dry? If we missed out simply by the points dropped vs Young Boys you think it’s ok for Oles employment to be terminated on the basis of a rash tackle by AWB?

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As others have said he’s got 5 games after Young Boys to rectify it, and let’s be honest we should really be topping this group comfortably. When the draw was made every United fan was ecstatic, we really shouldn’t be making hard work of it especially with this squad.

fergieisold said:

We've improved hugely since Ole came in. We are currently experiencing a bit of a tough spell where the direction isn't certain.

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dove said:

We have not improved hugely, that's one of the biggest problems with his time here.

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Not been able to get out of a CL group but we'll see.
74 pts and 64 pt tallies
no trophies

the previous manager who I hated, managed 69pts, 81pts, 2 cups and got out of the groups. we haven't improved hugely but have better players and so the squad is in a better position.

Plant0x84 said:

Surely it can’t be that cut and dry? If we missed out simply by the points dropped vs Young Boys you think it’s ok for Oles employment to be terminated on the basis of a rash tackle by AWB?

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You think the rash tackle was the only reason we lost to Young Boys? Did you see the subs? The way we set out? Chelsea looked to equal Liverpool with 10 men and we can't hack it against Young Boys? Wake up and smell the coffee

Bilbo said:

I agree with that, but I'm willing to be patient for a little longer and back a manager that has achieved most of his reasonable objectives up to this point in time. Ole's objectives IMO as of today are simple -

(1) get us out of this CL group - absolutely essential and no excuses. Even if he is badly let down by the players I don't see how he survives this.
(2) keep us in touch of first position in the league by Christmas. So far that is happening, regardless of fixtures to date.
(3) find the right balance in this team by Christmas. If 1 & 2 are in place and 3 is achieved then I think we could have a strong season

I don't believe that any of the above is unreasonable, or beyond this management team. If it proves to be so then I'll be ready for a change. However, what I won't do in that situation is throw hissy fits or generally tear apart these guys that, unlike Jose, clearly want what is best for our club. Ole should be able to leave the club with his head held high and his legacy intact.

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This is a great post.

While I've kind of reached the end, and I don't see ole doing those things... If he does, and we start to play better football, while, and this is key for me, routinely beating well the teams we should beat (ie, basically any of the teams we've played in the league so far this year, or similar) then I'll admit I was wrong and I'll happily have new hope.

Piratesoup said:

Another outsider's opinion:

When Ole became your interim manager, I thought he'd last a couple of months given the seeming dysfunctionality at the club behind the scenes. But after the years long clusterfeck that was the Moyes-LVG-Mourinho-era he managed to somewhat steady the ship, which I never thought he'd manage.
However, he's just been "alright" for 3 years now. And by "alright" I mean: He didn't completely feck up by alienating the squad and all of the fans. But on the pitch the team's just plodding along. I loved watching United under SAF, there was so much energy and pride on display. Nowadays it's just boring.

If I was a United fan, I'd be clamoring for his head as well because while he hasn't been a catastrophe he certainly doesn't look like a proper top manager to me. If he was, the team would play way better football than it currently does after Ole was allowed to spend all that money.

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This is where we are now. Not a disaster is good enough. He hasn’t alienated the dressing room, self-destructed or shat in the tea ladies mouth and all the other things Jose (probably) did but that’s not where the bar should be set for a club of our size

stw2022 said:

This is where we are now. Not a disaster is good enough. He hasn’t alienated the dressing room, self-destructed or shat in the tea ladies mouth and all the other things Jose (probably) did but that’s not where the bar should be set for a club of our size

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Jose self destructed as he couldn't get rid of Martial and Pogba and couldn't buy Maguire. But he won two trophies and got us to a 2nd place in that short time.
Now most people agree that Martial and Pogba are not delivering. Maybe Jose was right?

I think because many of us have stuck with Ole, despite having certain doubts, because his results have been good, allowing for the players at his disposal, the squad has improved and the general morale of the players seems good.

However, we could all see there were obvious questions marks about the way in which we seemed to struggle to break down mediocre sides, our negative/underdog style tactics in big games (which could sort f be justified at the time) and the lack of killer instinct in key games like Villarreal in the Europa League final.

This season, the squad is definitely good enough to be challenging. It's certainly good enough to be comfortably be beating the likes of Southampon, Villa (H) and Everton (H). However, even bad results in and of themselves isn't what is concerning me, because results in football can be random, and are heavily influenced by moments of luck. However, what concerns me more is the chaotic nature of these performances, and the performances against Wolves, Villarreal and Young Boys.

It would appear that Ole did a good job of making an average side perform above it's ability but somewhere, somehow, something is going wrong currently. It's hard to overplay quite how bad the Villarreal first half performance was, same goes for Wolves and Aston Villa really. It's massively concerning that we lack basic organisation in games. It's massively concerning that mediocre sides are creating 5/6 decent chances in games, and that every time we lose the ball, the opposition seem to be 3 vs 3 or 4 vs 4 at our back line.

That's what sets the 'good' managers apart from the 'outstanding'. A good manager should be able to set a team up to defend and counter. It takes a world-class one to figure out how to completely dominate the opposition in games and pick up results relentlessly against the 15 sides in the PL that we need to beat the majority of the time to win a PL title

If we were dominating games and getting beat because of individual errors or bad luck, that would be fine. Currently, we're so predictable that you fancy any team with a reasonable level of organisation who sets up in a low-block against us will create multiple chances in games, and I can say with certainty that if we carry on performing as we have, with this "you have a chance, we have a chance" approach, we won't get top four, let alone compete for trophies.

I'm short of saying Ole is past the point of no return because we have just added three players to the first XI in a tournament summer and are trying to find a formula and style that works. What must happen though, very quickly, is that we start to improve defensively. We're going to get a couple of hidings and/or be embarrassed by someone very average soon at this rate

stw2022 said:

This is where we are now. Not a disaster is good enough. He hasn’t alienated the dressing room, self-destructed or shat in the tea ladies mouth and all the other things Jose (probably) did but that’s not where the bar should be set for a club of our size

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Yep, his performance has been elevated simply by not being Jose. People talk as if players at other clubs aren’t content. We’re at a point where people are willing to accept, before the games are even played, us to getting out of an ‘easy’ Champions League group & be within single digits of the League Leaders by new year. It’s bizarre.

People say he hasn’t alienated the dressing room as if they’ve been in it. I wonder how DvB feels currently, Pogba isn’t signing a contract, Ronaldo stormed off at the weekend, surely Lingard will feel he warrants a league start, I wonder how Bailly feels signing a contract to see no league minutes. A number of the dressing room are content because they can underperform with no consequence behind the Ole veil as there’s a number of fans who simply won’t look at the product on the pitch but continue to defend the man based on if, buts & maybes. It’s no wonder people like our £80mil captain who’s main weakness is part of the reason we rely on a formation that doesn’t work is ‘happy’.

We’ve a number of players who if OgS left would come under immense scrutiny. It must be nice to play for Manchester United, lose in Finals & Semi-Finals only to have a vocal part of the fanbase write those failings off as insignificant whilst reducing expectations as the season goes on.

Foxbatt said:

Jose self destructed as he couldn't get rid of Martial and Pogba and couldn't buy Maguire. But he won two trophies and got us to a 2nd place in that short time.
Now most people agree that Martial and Pogba are not delivering. Maybe Jose was right?

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He was right.
He just went about it like a dick

Because we’re Manchester United.

I don’t ever want us fans to have any less expectations.

Because it's anything BUT knee-jerk.

It's three years.

After watching years of City, Chelsea or Liverpool winning titles or CL trophies? Pass me the sick bag someone.

Happily be knee-jerk in my reactions because the pain of seeing them win trophies hurts like a mother....

VP89 said:

You think the rash tackle was the only reason we lost to Young Boys? Did you see the subs? The way we set out? Chelsea looked to equal Liverpool with 10 men and we can't hack it against Young Boys? Wake up and smell the coffee

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Without the red, Ole doesn’t make those subs and go defensive trying to sit on a 1-0. We were dominating the match (albeit no cutting edge) up until the red card. YB played like it was their CL final because of who we are, but yes the red was pivotal.

ShinjiNinja26 said:

As others have said he’s got 5 games after Young Boys to rectify it, and let’s be honest we should really be topping this group comfortably. When the draw was made every United fan was ecstatic, we really shouldn’t be making hard work of it especially with this squad.

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A fair and fine point, but if anybody really thought Villarreal and Atalanta would roll over they are in for a surprise. But it’s okay, cos the silver lining is we can scapegoat the manager and set the club back another three years!

Plant0x84 said:

Without the red, Ole doesn’t make those subs and go defensive trying to sit on a 1-0. We were dominating the match (albeit no cutting edge) up until the red card. YB played like it was their CL final because of who we are, but yes the red was pivotal.

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After the red, he showed zero sense of in game management again. So he's obviously not learning and was out of his depth, which is my point. It's not even a freak result, we did a feck up of similar magnitude a year ago in the exact same stage of the tournament. Only difference being this was decorated with cup exits to West Ham and a loss to Aston Villa.

Plant0x84 said:

Without the red, Ole doesn’t make those subs and go defensive trying to sit on a 1-0. We were dominating the match (albeit no cutting edge) up until the red card. YB played like it was their CL final because of who we are, but yes the red was pivotal.

A fair and fine point, but if anybody really thought Villarreal and Atalanta would roll over they are in for a surprise. But it’s okay, cos the silver lining is we can scapegoat the manager and set the club back another three years!

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Why do they have to roll over? Are u saying we can't go toe to toe with them, and we can only win if they roll over? We can't come 2nd in a group with them? I mean if we are not better than them after spending 400m, what's the point? If Ole can't come 2nd in a group with them, tell me how we are going to come 1st in the league against Pep's City, Klopps Liverpool and Tuchel's Chelsea?

Or you don't think we can win anything anyway, so let's just continue with Ole, who at least is not destroying the club/squad?

Why do some posters believe we are knee-jerking as if the past 18 months hasn't happened. Its like Fifa Career mode where the manager rating refreshes back to 80 at start of every season.

This consistant display of no tactics or team unit has been shown since OGS had that huge purple patch when he first came.

mav_9me said:

Why do they have to roll over? Are u saying we can't go toe to toe with them, and we can only win if they roll over? We can't come 2nd in a group with them? I mean if we are not better than them after spending 400m, what's the point? If Ole can't come 2nd in a group with them, tell me how we are going to come 1st in the league against Pep's City, Klopps Liverpool and Tuchel's Chelsea?

Or you don't think we can win anything anyway, so let's just continue with Ole, who at least is not destroying the club/squad?

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I never said we aren’t better, can’t compete etc…. But you make it sound like we should walk every game in the group 4/5/6-0 and that simply isn’t realistic. The CL is the worlds elite club competition and the standard is very high, so even the minnows on their day can beat the big sides. Sherif are a case in point.
I also don’t expect to win the CL. I want to see the team do as well as possible but what’s the difference between getting knocked out of the group and getting knocked out in the quarter final? You still don’t win anything either way.

VP89 said:

After the red, he showed zero sense of in game management again. So he's obviously not learning and was out of his depth, which is my point. It's not even a freak result, we did a feck up of similar magnitude a year ago in the exact same stage of the tournament. Only difference being this was decorated with cup exits to West Ham and a loss to Aston Villa.

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I don’t agree. He clearly had a plan to defend the 1-0. That’s why Donny and Jadon were sacrificed for Dalot and Varane. It’s not the way I would have gone about things but it’s management of the situation as he saw it. When he realised we were getting swamped because we had no out ball he threw Lingard and Martial on. He was reacting to the match as it unfolded.

How anyone can watch that Liverpool v City game and not come to the conclusion that we look nowhere as good despite being comparable to those squads player for player.

Plant0x84 said:

I never said we aren’t better, can’t compete etc…. But you make it sound like we should walk every game in the group 4/5/6-0 and that simply isn’t realistic. The CL is the worlds elite club competition and the standard is very high, so even the minnows on their day can beat the big sides. Sherif are a case in point.
I also don’t expect to win the CL. I want to see the team do as well as possible but what’s the difference between getting knocked out of the group and getting knocked out in the quarter final? You still don’t win anything either way.

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This right here is the goalposts being shifted in real time.

When the draw was made, it was universally agreed that qualification from the group was the bare minimum expectation.

Now the excuses (red card), strawmen (every game should be a 4-0 win), and lowered expectations (no difference between crashing out at the group stage and at the QF stage) are all flying around.

Plant0x84 said:

I never said we aren’t better, can’t compete etc…. But you make it sound like we should walk every game in the group 4/5/6-0 and that simply isn’t realistic. The CL is the worlds elite club competition and the standard is very high, so even the minnows on their day can beat the big sides. Sherif are a case in point.
I also don’t expect to win the CL. I want to see the team do as well as possible but what’s the difference between getting knocked out of the group and getting knocked out in the quarter final? You still don’t win anything either way.

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Oh please... just look at the squad you have assembled and the money spend on transfers and wages. United is in that regard part of the absolute elite, together with Man City, Chelsea, PSG, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Liverpool. Those clubs are regularly at least in the quarter finals of the CL and are the clubs that win it. They do have the odd loss in the group stages, that is absolutely normal, but that does not stop you from going through the group as one of the first two teams. There is no need to win every game in the group, and just because you lose one game you are not out of the CL, so a single freak accident like it happened in Bern is no problem.

In the knock-out stages one freak accident can be a huge problem that you can't overcome, and you can be sure to play against a team that is performing well in the current season, which is not always guaranteed in the group stages.

But the point is, considering the status of the club, the money spend on the squad and the quality of the squad (it is expensive, but it is mostly money well spend), there is absolute NO reason why United should not be part of that group of clubs listed above, and none of those would be ok with dropping out of the group stage.

If you are ok with that, just take all the cash you have and burn it, that would be equivalent to wasting the squad United has assembled in that way.

Plant0x84 said:

. But you make it sound like we should walk every game in the group 4/5/6-0

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No.

"let’s be honest we should really be topping this group comfortably" =/= "we should win every game in this group 5-0"

Plant0x84 said:

The CL is the worlds elite club competition and the standard is very high, so even the minnows on their day can beat the big sides.

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And United have gotten a very generous draw with this group. Therefore, the expectation is obviously to qualify from it

And finally:

Plant0x84 said:

But it’s okay, cos the silver lining is we can scapegoat the manager and set the club back another three years!

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Brexit_Brigade said:

Says who?

People need to stop making up false dichotomies. If you're in favor of keeping the manager, base it on what he has or will bring to the team. Not some baseless doomsday scenario about the alternatives

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It's not a choice between

a) keeping the manager if he's underperforming, and

b) setting the club back 3 years

Big Ben Foster said:

This right here is the goalposts being shifted in real time.

When the draw was made, it was universally agreed that qualification from the group was the bare minimum expectation.

Now the excuses (red card), strawmen (every game should be a 4-0 win), and lowered expectations (no difference between crashing out at the group stage and at the QF stage) are all flying around.

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What’s the difference between an excuse and a mitigating factor?

Plant0x84 said:

What’s the difference between an excuse and a mitigating factor?

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Things you can't plan for can be mitigating factors (for example, all your CBs injured at once).

Making a point of things you can reasonably expect to happen is an excuse, it can always happen that someone gets sent off for a stupid foul or being late. But it is reasonable to expect this not all the time, so for me it would be ok to see it as a mitigating factor if it should happen in 3 or 4 of the group matches, but not when it happens once.

stefan92 said:

Oh please... just look at the squad you have assembled and the money spend on transfers and wages. United is in that regard part of the absolute elite, together with Man City, Chelsea, PSG, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Liverpool. Those clubs are regularly at least in the quarter finals of the CL and are the clubs that win it. They do have the odd loss in the group stages, that is absolutely normal, but that does not stop you from going through the group as one of the first two teams. There is no need to win every game in the group, and just because you lose one game you are not out of the CL, so a single freak accident like it happened in Bern is no problem.

In the knock-out stages one freak accident can be a huge problem that you can't overcome, and you can be sure to play against a team that is performing well in the current season, which is not always guaranteed in the group stages.

But the point is, considering the status of the club, the money spend on the squad and the quality of the squad (it is expensive, but it is mostly money well spend), there is absolute NO reason why United should not be part of that group of clubs listed above, and none of those would be ok with dropping out of the group stage.

If you are ok with that, just take all the cash you have and burn it, that would be equivalent to wasting the squad United has assembled in that way.

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Sorry, I don’t understand your point, I am not amongst those who are losing there shite over the YB game. I accept there will be hiccups and road bumps - especially this early in the season. I also agree Utd are absolutely amongst the elite clubs listed. I mean, we beat most of them at some point last season!

Brexit_Brigade said:

No.

"let’s be honest we should really be topping this group comfortably" =/= "we should win every game in this group 5-0"



And United have gotten a very generous draw with this group. Therefore, the expectation is obviously to qualify from it

And finally:





It's not a choice between

a) keeping the manager if he's underperforming, and

b) setting the club back 3 years

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We can’t qualify after 2 games. Therefore my point stands - we should wait until we know what will happen to call for the manager to be sacked and have a melt down.

Plant0x84 said:

Sorry, I don’t understand your point, I am not amongst those who are losing there shite over the YB game. I accept there will be hiccups and road bumps - especially this early in the season. I also agree Utd are absolutely amongst the elite clubs listed. I mean, we beat most of them at some point last season!

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You asked what the difference is between dropping out of the group and losing a quarter final, my point is that it can't happen for the real elite to drop out of the group, but could happen if they have a day off in a quarter final (or are playing another elite team).

And you sound like it is a tough job and not guaranteed for United to survive the group. I agree that it looks far from safe, and my point is that that should be unacceptable for a club like United. Based on performances, United is not and has not been a truly elite club for a decade now.

Plant0x84 said:

I don’t agree. He clearly had a plan to defend the 1-0. That’s why Donny and Jadon were sacrificed for Dalot and Varane. It’s not the way I would have gone about things but it’s management of the situation as he saw it. When he realised we were getting swamped because we had no out ball he threw Lingard and Martial on. He was reacting to the match as it unfolded.

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Let me simplify it for you - with 10 men and a goal lead, 60-70 mins left to play. There is absolutely zero excuse for us losing to Young Boys.

There is no spin, no bad luck, no misfortune. Its just piss poor all round and thats wholly on Ole.

Plant0x84 said:

We can’t qualify after 2 games. Therefore my point stands - we should wait until we know what will happen to call for the manager to be sacked and have a melt down.

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Your point was that sacking the manager is somehow guaranteed to set the club back three years.

It doesn't stand, because it's utterly baseless.

Who's Kissing Cameras? said:

Because of the fixtures we have played and the ones we are about to play… 7 points dropped already is terrible.

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Well, to be fair, we are normally smashing it when playing against teams who are willing to take more possession which the teams in those fixtures we are about to play. Time will only tell.

UNITED ACADEMY said:

Well, to be fair, we are normally smashing it when playing against teams who are willing to take more possession which the teams in those fixtures we are about to play. Time will only tell.

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League games last season vs. “Big 6 + Leicester”
H | A
Man City: D 0-0 | W 0-2
Liverpool: L 2-4 | D 0-0
Chelsea: D 0-0 | D 0-0
Spurs: L 1-6 | W 1-3
Arsenal: L 0-1 | D 0-0
Leicester: L 1-2 | D 2-2

Based on last seasons form (2W / 6D / 4L) the next 6/7 weeks will be a nightmare.

Who's Kissing Cameras? said:

League games last season vs. “Big 6 + Leicester”
H | A
Man City: D 0-0 | W 0-2
Liverpool: L 2-4 | D 0-0
Chelsea: D 0-0 | D 0-0
Spurs: L 1-6 | W 1-3
Arsenal: L 0-1 | D 0-0
Leicester: L 1-2 | D 2-2

Based on last seasons form (2W / 6D / 4L) the next 6/7 weeks will be a nightmare.

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That’s based on last season. What about based on under Ole’s regime? Everyone should know counter attack is our strength under Ole, I’m surprised there is a football fans in this world doesn’t think that way.

Yes, why not wait for we are mathematically out of the top 4?

UNITED ACADEMY said:

That’s based on last season. What about based on under Ole’s regime? Everyone should know counter attack is our strength under Ole, I’m surprised there is a football fans in this world doesn’t think that way.

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Who exactly do you think were our manager last season?

weizxx said:

Yes, why not wait for we are mathematically out of the top 4?

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Exactly. Why call the fire brigade until the flames have engulfed every room of the house?

As every person with common sense knows you don’t address an issue until the damage it is doing is beyond repair.