Finally we agree on something
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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Yet despite his negativity, which I'll agree with, his team has scored one (1) goal less over a sample period of 100 games than Ole's "all out attack" style which some posters will have you believe that he's employing, despite shielding a >£200m defence with two CDMs. Not to mention that the 181 goals for number is inflated by some blowout results which should obviously be to his credit but which also skew the stats a bit in Ole's favour. I mean, pretend that the Southampton game ends 2-0 and we're in a situation where "extremely negative Mourinho" has 180 goals for in 100 games and "all out attack Ole" has 173 in the same amount of games.
Over a 100 games it's hard to blame the last seven or fifteen or whatever games as it paints a picture that doesn't make Ole's tenure look very good, especially with the amount of money he's spent in mind.
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You read the quote wrong mate...he is not saying that good football is only 30% coaching and 70% social competence...he says “30% of coaching is tactics...70% Of coaching is social competence....” He is referring to being a good coach ie. how to get your ideas across to a team - not the subject matter of what is being coached. For example, if I wanted to coach a team to park the bus, it would be 30% the quality of the tactics I show them and 70% about how i communicate with each player. The result would still be a team parking the bus well.
Point im making, Ole being a good man manager is only going to be useful if he uses those qualities to coach tactics which maximise the quality of our squad. He hasn’t done that in 3 years. We are a happy and committed bunch but play awful football tbh. He clearly has no great technical philosophy on football and has said as much whenever pressed. He prefers passion and guts and bravery and playing the ball forward and running forward and attacking at pace...but beyond that he does not seem to have any idea how to break down teams who are prepared for our very manageable attacking play.
I personally want him to stay but want to see better coaches. Read Rene Mulensteens UTd unscripted on how sir Alex gave the coaches his broad footballing principles and relied on them to train it into the players. Ole could do the same but we need far more capable coaches to figure out this inability to play quick and incisive football around the opponents 18 yard box or how to play out from the back more comfortably.
Ole isn’t new to management, he’s never been as good as Klopp and never will be. This idea Ole is going to magically turn into a brilliant manager by giving him some time is just pie in the sky.
Liverpool dropped points in 8 league games and won the Champions League in Klopp’s third season, anyone thinking Ole is going to replicate something similar to that is in for a bit of a shock.
That's fair and at least a balanced take. Overall his best improvement has been in counter attacking and we've certainly seen far better team goals under him but unfortunately we have to play that way quite rarely. He hasn't given any encouragement at all that he knows how to get 85+ pts
This is the most points we've had at this stage of the season since 17/18.
(And Im well aware that pointing this out is like waving a Red Ole poster in front of some fans who gets triggered by such statements, even if they are factual)
That's easy to say, but how many managers would have bought him back then...
The guy has already signed the likes of Ronaldo 36, Cavani 34 and Varane 28, Maguire was also 26 when he signed and now 28, but people like you are acting like Ole is discovering some hidden gems from underground and signing them or something.
Yeah what? Also, besides Greenwood, who from the academy has been given plenty of chances and minutes in the first team? This it was always going to take time nonsense needs to stop. He’s had a lot of time. And a lot of backing. And, unfortunately, I see no progression this year. Last year I did. We’re worse this year, and still making the same mistakes as last year (starting slow, taking the foot off the gas after taking a lead etc).
Biggest problem is, besides “play fast”, there seems to be no plan whatsoever. It was the same with Jose. LVG at least you could see what he was trying to do, even if the football was dreadful.
Over Lindelof? I don't know but even my untrained eye could see he had something back then
Interestingly I also blamed Mourinho for the poor display.
At least you can give him that he's not stupid. Selling the "it'll take a long time for this club to teach the players how to attack against most teams" spiel to the board was a masterstroke by Ole once he got a job that it's turned out that he was severely under-qualified for. Three years on and many players show the exact same weaknesses as they had when he came through the door, leading to the same 'uncharacteristic, individual mistakes', like AWB not being able to hold an offside line, track a man at the back post or properly control a football.
I mean, anyone that isn't either willingly ignorant or plain stupid understands that a manager (and his staff) that is of the required quality to challenge for titles doesn't need three years to teach a team how to play in a certain way. This is plain and simple as good as it gets with Ole, no matter how much we spend or want him to succeed because of sentimental reasons.
Oh please, Jose was defensive in big games, same as Ole is. Ole is just as negative as Mourinho when it comes to football play and that is what pisses most fans, including me, off. You can't name me a single victory where we dominated our opponents. Le famous PSG night all we did was get dominated and get lucky. And PSG are not really that impressive, even with Messi in the team. His defeat to Villareal is eerily similar to Jose's to Sevilla. We haven't moved one bit since the Moyes days in terms of negative managers. LVG had his philosophy, but his philosophy was centered more about not conceding than actually winning the game.
Since SAF we've never had an actual progressive manager.
Jose vs Ole
Ole’s Team.
De gea/Henderson
AWB/Dalot , Varane/Lindelof , Maquire/Bailly Shaw/Telles
Fred/Matic, McTom
Sancho/James, Bruno/Lingard, Pogba/VDB
Ronaldo/Cavani/Rashford/Greenwood
Goals for - 181
Goals against - 100
Games won - 55
Games lost - 24
Draws - 21
Points Per Game - 1.86
Clean Sheets - 38
Trophies won in that time - 0
Mourinho’s Team
De Gea/Romero
Valencia/Dalot/Young, Bailly/Smalling, Lindelof/Jones, Shaw/Darmian
Herrera, Matic
Lingard/Mata, Pogba/Fellaini, Rashford/Martial
Lukaku/Zlatan
Goals for - 180
Goals against - 70
Games won - 62
Games lost - 15
Draws - 23
Points Per Game - 2.09
Clean Sheets - 49
Trophies won in that time - 3
Is this even a debate? Just look at each teams, then at the stats and then at the no. of trophies won.
End of debate.
Ole’s Team.
De gea/Henderson
AWB/Dalot , Varane/Lindelof , Maquire/Bailly Shaw/Telles
Fred/Matic, McTom
Sancho/James, Bruno/Lingard, Pogba/VDB
Ronaldo/Cavani/Rashford/Greenwood
Goals for - 181
Goals against - 100
Games won - 55
Games lost - 24
Draws - 21
Points Per Game - 1.86
Clean Sheets - 38
Trophies won in that time - 0
Mourinho’s Team
De Gea/Romero
Valencia/Dalot/Young, Bailly/Smalling, Lindelof/Jones, Shaw/Darmian
Herrera, Matic
Lingard/Mata, Pogba/Fellaini, Rashford/Martial
Lukaku/Zlatan
Goals for - 180
Goals against - 70
Games won - 62
Games lost - 15
Draws - 23
Points Per Game - 2.09
Clean Sheets - 49
Trophies won in that time - 3
Is this even a debate? Just look at each teams, then at the stats and then at the no. of trophies won.
End of debate.
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take that with a pinch of salt. i dont recall being askedYou're never going to get an objective take from Neville and Scholes as Ole is their mate. So they default to the stance of "give him a chance". I think in recent times Carragher has been more insightful with his point of us spending all that money, having all these world class players who seem to have no problem putting in performances for their country, yet our team's style of play and organisation has been an absolute mess. That should all be on the manager.
Also a little disappointed to find out from that survey that over 70% of United fans still think Ole is the right man for the job
Problem is people keep talking about the current team as if it'll be here for 10 years and Ole has built a long term squad while in reality you have De Gea 30, Maguire 28, Varane 28, Fred 28, Pogba 28, Bruno 27, Ronaldo 36, Cavani 34..etc.
3 years form now or something and we'll probably start thinking about a new rebuild especially in midfield. All the starters in midfield are around 28 years old bar Scott. Our 2 main strikers are also +34, did we give Greenwood any chances as main striker yet for the future?
Point is if you sign Varane 28 and Ronaldo 36 in same summer, it's BS to talk about needing more time.
3 years form now or something and we'll probably start thinking about a new rebuild especially in midfield. All the starters in midfield are around 28 years old bar Scott. Our 2 main strikers are also +34, did we give Greenwood any chances as main striker yet for the future?
Point is if you sign Varane 28 and Ronaldo 36 in same summer, it's BS to talk about needing more time.
I am not sure why the first 100 games matter. I mean Jose for example played EL in his first few European games whereas Ole played PSG and Barca.
Our hard cup draws under Ole are well documented.
Then I have also seen stats in other threads where in the league under Ole we have scored most goals on average per game since Fergie.
Last season was also an extraordinary season with so many games in a shorter period than ever before. Very difficult to compare to normal circumstances.
Also if you don’t want to count results like 9-0, then also don’t count results like 1-6.
At the end league finishes are a fair metric as in a given season everyone in the league faces the same opposition from the same season twice.
Points across several seasons don’t matter to me.
The scary part is the 1 more goal for and 30 more conceded.
Most would turn a blind eye too the conceded as the way Jose plays will always give off a decent defensive record but only scoring 1 extra goal is a slap of reality as most used the fact we look better going forward under Ole and we score more and much more entertaining.
We don’t look any better under Ole and the fact Jose won trophies mixed in with he also didn’t do well here doesn’t look good for Ole. A loss to Leicester and he will be in troubld
It’s not a defence of Pogba, he’s been rather underwhelming in his time here.
Go back to the beginning of this & I criticised Maguire to which you somehow turned into a ‘but Pogba’ response. You mentioned him first lad, he’s irrelevant here. You can downplay his marginal successes as much as you like, it only serves to further put Maguire non-existent successes into the spotlight.
You’ve now downplayed 3 players to defend Maguire instead of sticking to the subject.
What's the debate about? These figures don't prove anything. (And I backed Mourinho plenty before he was sacked)
Your posts make less and less sense so I will stop replying to them.
He’s a good CB but I see him as a complimentary archetype; once he went to Leicester & they wanted ‘silly money’ we should have been after ‘the next imo.
The second paragraph is exactly why I’d have spent the money upfront & in midfield first then gone big at the back line. If we had the attack & midfield sorted you can then tweak the defence.
Those figures are irrelevant in a discussion regarding who’s the better manager? What in your opinion is relevant to the discussion.
Jog on.
It shows that even though we have improved on paper in quality that Ole hasn’t improved our results over the last manager who we deemed now good enough
Give me league vs league results (points per game is nonsense above). Cup vs Cup. Adjust for quality of opposition. That's just a starting point.
Is Mourinho a better manager than Solskjaer? Obviously. Has Solskjaer done a good job for us to this point? Yes.
They aren't comparable and include Mourinho's results against the likes of Yeovil, Burton and Northampton and a full season in the Europa league.
I think Mourinho would still come out well in the league but he was sacked because we were declining over a long period.
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I can't believe Ole vs Jose is even a discussion.
Jose is twice the manager, he actually won things with us with much much weaker squad while having better stats as already stated.
We played some garbage football under Jose, but we play even worse now with much superior squad. But I guess it doesn't matter, Ole ain't toxic and is mate with our players, like we are some sunday league club
I wouldn't want Jose near our club again, but if I was forced to pick between him and Ole to actually win something, it's Jose without a doubt.
Jose is twice the manager, he actually won things with us with much much weaker squad while having better stats as already stated.
We played some garbage football under Jose, but we play even worse now with much superior squad. But I guess it doesn't matter, Ole ain't toxic and is mate with our players, like we are some sunday league club
I wouldn't want Jose near our club again, but if I was forced to pick between him and Ole to actually win something, it's Jose without a doubt.
Yeah exactly. This is why I don't get this "planning for the long term" line that's trotted out as a defense for Ole. The squad is definitely the best it's been in the post SAF era, but many of these players, especially our best players, are in their prime right now. This isn't meant to be a team being built for three years from now, this is a team that's supposed to be winning something now.
This./
What time to be alive, JM acolytes vs Ole acolytes, shit just got real.
Ole's football is better than Mourinho's. Stop the revisionism
*fewer heh
Well yea, the backbone of every great title winning team is a stout defence. As much as everyone hates Jose, imagine him having Varane and Maguire instead of Bailly, Smalling, Lindelof and Jones. No comparison yet he still produced more clean sheets and won trophies! But hey we hammer Leeds and Southampton now and then, PROGRESS!
We’ve conceded 30 more goals and just scored one more but yes the football is better .
Disagree. Both are different flavors of shit on a stick football. As entertaining as watching a whiteboard.
I said Ole is a glorified cheerleader to bring vibes based on that article but hey, Ole inners
Yeah. Ole fans like to brag this stuff all the time to Ole outers but it does not make sense at all. I dont mind United get managed by Dalglish if he can win us the title.
No.
This is funny especially considering Jose is identified as a negative minded manager.
It's really not too dissimilar honestly.
All of Ole's talk about how we're going to be the fittest team in the league, play attractive football, etc was merely for show.
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