Why so many knee-jerk reactions and negativity 7 games in?

Mr Anderson

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It isn’t knee-jerk when it’s the same issues over and over, for 12-18 months. Just more and more losing patience now is the difference.

no real style of play, bar countering, so we have never had a game plan around the low block - we lose the ball and get punished. It happens over and over, too easy and never addressed.

you can just pick XI fairly decent individuals and it will work away by itself, not when you are trying to compete for honours.
 

sugar_kane

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It's quite draining hearing about Ole's CV all the time, but if that's the game we're playing he's not actually that different on paper from a lot of the other Caf obsessions like Poch, Nagelsmann, Rose once you factor in league finishes and cup runs.

Obviously I'm including his time at United in that, but since he's been here nearly three years it wouldn't make sense to ignore it.

I honestly think however it ends for Ole here (and it will one day) his time will be looked back on positively and there will be another Premier League club who will be interested in him, since he has proven adept at rebuilding and motivating a team and his tactical ability is massively underrated. I'm just not sure he's interested in managing elsewhere in the UK and will probably head home to Norway.

In fact, I'm confident that not long after the press/some of our fans get their way, we'll see a complete in how he is spoken about - no doubt comparing his record favourably to whoever our new manager is, and you'll see revisionist threads popping up on here about how he was underrated.

So it goes.
 

VP89

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It's quite draining hearing about Ole's CV all the time, but if that's the game we're playing he's not actually that different on paper from a lot of the other Caf obsessions like Poch, Nagelsmann, Rose once you factor in league finishes and cup runs.

Obviously I'm including his time at United in that, but since he's been here nearly three years it wouldn't make sense to ignore it.

I honestly think however it ends for Ole here (and it will one day) his time will be looked back on positively and there will be another Premier League club who will be interested in him, since he has proven adept at rebuilding and motivating a team and his tactical ability is massively underrated. I'm just not sure he's interested in managing elsewhere in the UK and will probably head home to Norway.

In fact, I'm confident that not long after the press/some of our fans get their way, we'll see a complete in how he is spoken about - no doubt comparing his record favourably to whoever our new manager is, and you'll see revisionist threads popping up on here about how he was underrated.

So it goes.
The gripe with Ole and his CV is also about the lack of conviction when put in a position to win a final or a semi that he's a favourite in. With Poch he at least managed to get into a position that he was never ever expected to be in with the CL Final, and made Tottenham a solid Champions League side which is a big thing on the CV even if it's not a trophy. It's why he'll be looked back upon with greater respect than say, Juande Ramos in his Tottenham career even though the latter won a cup.

With Naglsmann again he was just over performing, showing good football and an identifiable system. It was his far cheaper and lesser Leipzig squad that had the last laugh against ours last season and with such managers (nagelsmann/poch) you just know it is a matter of time before their trophy lands. With Ole he can't win a cup in a B competition that he's fallen into. He can't get a good squad of players showing good football and it's 3 years in. He's gone against what he said at the start of his campaign about identifying pressing, out running, etc. and he's also playing square pegs in round holes. So all of these obvious faults exacerbates the fact that he has no CV on top.

I also think some parts of his work is overrated - like how he improved us post Jose. It's definitely credit worthy but you have to ask yourself how many half decent managers would have made the dressing room better after Jose. Most of them would have. Then you consider his 2nd place last season - it was progress on the season prior. But he fell away from 1st early on, and he had a novice equivalent for the first 6 months in Lampard, whilst Klopp had his entire defence out for more than half a season. And even still he fecked up in the CL, the FA Cup, the Carling Cup and choked in the Europa Cup. He's taken us as far as he can but if he left tomorrow I'd see him as a half decent stop gap manager, nothing more.
 

Ledom

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I've said this before but I'll say it again, some people, many people on this forum and across our fan base want United to play with an objective system. They want player X to pass to player Y in a certain situation, to move from place A to place B when given the ball whilst player Z moves to another location waiting for the ball to be given by player Y who only has player Z in his mind. There is room in these forms of systems for some player expression, but that expression is for the most part muted for efficient play style. There are some really important things to remember with this concept though and the first most important of them being that in a system such as this, every player is simply a cog in a wheel, easily replaced for another system player who can come into the game and perform an exact role which compliments or shifts the behaviour of the other cogs on the field in a certain situation. Players know that at 1-0 down with a shift from player Y to player P their system has moved to either a more defensive or more offensive setup which informs them of the behaviours they are to employ in the oncoming phases of the game.

If this is the style of play that you're looking for then I'm unsurprised when there are those who call for the end of Ole's time at Manchester United, he doesn't coach this way and likely never will.

There is of course another system of play, in this form of system the players are given their starting roles and encouraged to remain in certain areas of the field, A left back for instance will be encouraged to either sit back and wait for the opponent to drive forwards before engaging with them and setting up a counter, or asked to drive up the field for width allowing the left winger, inverted winger, inside forward et al to cause problems in the middle of the pitch. In this system the behaviours of certain players are coached individually, each behaviour in set to allow for expression and as many have put it on the forum causes teams to look like they're waiting for individual brilliance to come up with something special.

During Sir Alex's time as a manager he employed the secondary system. Irwin and Neville were never instructed directly that they MUST give the ball to Giggs or Beckham respectively, instead they were encouraged to play to their strengths as players with the knowledge that each respective player on the pitch would do their bit to open space, drive the ball forwards, or simply score goals (Hughesm Berbatov and van Nistelrooj come to mind here). In truth. there were times during Sir Alex's career that fans and other coaches alike called this system archaic and demanded a modern adaptation of this game to a more formulated structure. These calls were mostly from those who enjoyed tiki taka football or Wenger's passing setup at Arsenal, yet it was never part of the makeup of a Manchester United side. We are, were and developed as a counter-attacking team with strong wingers and a central block that remained stoic throughout a 38 game season. There were good and bad games but the fans knew that through 38 games, quality would no doubt shine through and the team would be there or there abouts at the end of the season.

Sir Alex had issues with Guardiola, Wenger, Mourinho and plenty of others who played football in the more efficient first style, he in time developed certain counter measures for each team or would come to reflect on decisions he could have made instead. Mourinho at Chelsea saw the emergence of Darren Fletcher as the most prominent midfielder to counter balance Essien, whilst Evra and Brown were considered regularly as wingbacks to stretch his team against Terry and Carvalho or negate Ashley Cole who bombed through much of Europe at the time. With Wenger in the early years the force of Keane was used in the centre of the park to create issues between a Vieira and Petit centre line that sat back to spread the ball to Parlour and leave Wright with no options further forward. In fact, Keane became such an important part of this game every year that it would lead to much of the player base elevating Keane to legendary status. When Arsenal moved to Fabregas later in Wengers time, Keane who had got older and no longer had the legs, was still employed in many Arsenal games this time to shadow and bully Fabregas who was the essential pivot. Keane's simple elegance in these games was his ability to remove a central part of the system team's development through the pitch. Isolation of these players would often leave the team devoid of answers, make them (certainly arsenal) look bulliable and mean that Ferguson's trust in his players core abilities would often pay dividends as they carved out wins despite the odd hick up. To further this point on Arsenal, when Carrick signed, the majority of fans didn't want the signing because our midfield was going to be forced to play into these teams more often, gifting them the ball and hitting them on the counter in new ways as we no longer had the central piece of the puzzle we had relied upon for 10 years. As for Guardiola, Ferguson is noted as saying his regret here is still not using Park, in fact Ferguson believes that the use of Park against Messi would have done exactly the same thing as we had seen Keane do against Fabregas years earlier. Messi might be a skillful player, one that looks like the ball is glued to his feet, yet if Park had been employed effectively, the pivot would have been broken up and allowed for United to counter more effectively have neutralised their biggest threat. Whilst many of us (myself included) may disagree that Messi was the only problem on that field, it is no doubt comforting that Sir Alex believed it to be our biggest issue.

There is nothing wrong with either system, in fact both systems have through out time been shown to be effective in different leagues and with different managers but both styles have their place. Ole grew up at Manchester United and watched Sir Alex adopting these tactics and gaining results for a long time, despite the more methodical systems around him. It isn't unreasonable to believe that his style and concept of football management was grown from this and certainly when watching the game on a Saturday I personally see more of the second type of football on show than the first and I for one don't have issues with that, even if it means that sometimes we lose games where we should win.

We have no divine right to win the league, we are a football club that has been managed by a plethora of talented managers who play system football, be they the Doc, Atkinson, van Gaal or Mourinho none stuck. They didn't fit with the club, they didn't fit with the fans and they don't fit with our brand. Ole might not win the league, hell we might spend the next 10 years fighting for 2nd place but I very much doubt it. Yes we have issues playing against a low block formation, for many this is because we have yet to find the player who can be our Carrick, Scholes, Ince or Keane... hell even a Fletcher might do it. Yet there are those who complain that we still aren't a system team, we don't have the chess like proficiency of City, Liverpool or Chelsea and they wonder if we ever will. I don't think it's needed, nor do I think it's wanted by many of us. We want to see individual players come out and make things happen, we want the thrill of Ronaldo, Giggs, Kanchelskis bombing down the wings making things happen and we don't want to give up on a manager that wants that too just because results don't always favour us. The replacement of Fred in particular will be a massive change for United today, personally I think a partnership of Rice and McTomminay would do exactly what we want and need in this way and will be slightly upset if as seems likely, we don't get him.

The knee jerk isn't knee jerk though, people are now completely divided on style lines having spent so much time being coached via the media that system play is the only viable solution and those managers who employ something else are archaic, old fashioned managers that cannot win. Strange how head to head though, each of those system teams are nullified on a regular by our team, it is instead those in the middle of the league which cause United so many problems. Someone needs to step up and thus far we have failed to either sign or create someone who has done just that in the centre of our midfield, it'll come, it always does. Until then, enjoy the wins and rue the losses but blaming our manager seems at least to me, silly.
 

youmeletsfly

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Sep 29, 2018
Messages
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I've said this before but I'll say it again, some people, many people on this forum and across our fan base want United to play with an objective system. They want player X to pass to player Y in a certain situation, to move from place A to place B when given the ball whilst player Z moves to another location waiting for the ball to be given by player Y who only has player Z in his mind. There is room in these forms of systems for some player expression, but that expression is for the most part muted for efficient play style. There are some really important things to remember with this concept though and the first most important of them being that in a system such as this, every player is simply a cog in a wheel, easily replaced for another system player who can come into the game and perform an exact role which compliments or shifts the behaviour of the other cogs on the field in a certain situation. Players know that at 1-0 down with a shift from player Y to player P their system has moved to either a more defensive or more offensive setup which informs them of the behaviours they are to employ in the oncoming phases of the game.

If this is the style of play that you're looking for then I'm unsurprised when there are those who call for the end of Ole's time at Manchester United, he doesn't coach this way and likely never will.

There is of course another system of play, in this form of system the players are given their starting roles and encouraged to remain in certain areas of the field, A left back for instance will be encouraged to either sit back and wait for the opponent to drive forwards before engaging with them and setting up a counter, or asked to drive up the field for width allowing the left winger, inverted winger, inside forward et al to cause problems in the middle of the pitch. In this system the behaviours of certain players are coached individually, each behaviour in set to allow for expression and as many have put it on the forum causes teams to look like they're waiting for individual brilliance to come up with something special.

During Sir Alex's time as a manager he employed the secondary system. Irwin and Neville were never instructed directly that they MUST give the ball to Giggs or Beckham respectively, instead they were encouraged to play to their strengths as players with the knowledge that each respective player on the pitch would do their bit to open space, drive the ball forwards, or simply score goals (Hughesm Berbatov and van Nistelrooj come to mind here). In truth. there were times during Sir Alex's career that fans and other coaches alike called this system archaic and demanded a modern adaptation of this game to a more formulated structure. These calls were mostly from those who enjoyed tiki taka football or Wenger's passing setup at Arsenal, yet it was never part of the makeup of a Manchester United side. We are, were and developed as a counter-attacking team with strong wingers and a central block that remained stoic throughout a 38 game season. There were good and bad games but the fans knew that through 38 games, quality would no doubt shine through and the team would be there or there abouts at the end of the season.

Sir Alex had issues with Guardiola, Wenger, Mourinho and plenty of others who played football in the more efficient first style, he in time developed certain counter measures for each team or would come to reflect on decisions he could have made instead. Mourinho at Chelsea saw the emergence of Darren Fletcher as the most prominent midfielder to counter balance Essien, whilst Evra and Brown were considered regularly as wingbacks to stretch his team against Terry and Carvalho or negate Ashley Cole who bombed through much of Europe at the time. With Wenger in the early years the force of Keane was used in the centre of the park to create issues between a Vieira and Petit centre line that sat back to spread the ball to Parlour and leave Wright with no options further forward. In fact, Keane became such an important part of this game every year that it would lead to much of the player base elevating Keane to legendary status. When Arsenal moved to Fabregas later in Wengers time, Keane who had got older and no longer had the legs, was still employed in many Arsenal games this time to shadow and bully Fabregas who was the essential pivot. Keane's simple elegance in these games was his ability to remove a central part of the system team's development through the pitch. Isolation of these players would often leave the team devoid of answers, make them (certainly arsenal) look bulliable and mean that Ferguson's trust in his players core abilities would often pay dividends as they carved out wins despite the odd hick up. To further this point on Arsenal, when Carrick signed, the majority of fans didn't want the signing because our midfield was going to be forced to play into these teams more often, gifting them the ball and hitting them on the counter in new ways as we no longer had the central piece of the puzzle we had relied upon for 10 years. As for Guardiola, Ferguson is noted as saying his regret here is still not using Park, in fact Ferguson believes that the use of Park against Messi would have done exactly the same thing as we had seen Keane do against Fabregas years earlier. Messi might be a skillful player, one that looks like the ball is glued to his feet, yet if Park had been employed effectively, the pivot would have been broken up and allowed for United to counter more effectively have neutralised their biggest threat. Whilst many of us (myself included) may disagree that Messi was the only problem on that field, it is no doubt comforting that Sir Alex believed it to be our biggest issue.

There is nothing wrong with either system, in fact both systems have through out time been shown to be effective in different leagues and with different managers but both styles have their place. Ole grew up at Manchester United and watched Sir Alex adopting these tactics and gaining results for a long time, despite the more methodical systems around him. It isn't unreasonable to believe that his style and concept of football management was grown from this and certainly when watching the game on a Saturday I personally see more of the second type of football on show than the first and I for one don't have issues with that, even if it means that sometimes we lose games where we should win.

We have no divine right to win the league, we are a football club that has been managed by a plethora of talented managers who play system football, be they the Doc, Atkinson, van Gaal or Mourinho none stuck. They didn't fit with the club, they didn't fit with the fans and they don't fit with our brand. Ole might not win the league, hell we might spend the next 10 years fighting for 2nd place but I very much doubt it. Yes we have issues playing against a low block formation, for many this is because we have yet to find the player who can be our Carrick, Scholes, Ince or Keane... hell even a Fletcher might do it. Yet there are those who complain that we still aren't a system team, we don't have the chess like proficiency of City, Liverpool or Chelsea and they wonder if we ever will. I don't think it's needed, nor do I think it's wanted by many of us. We want to see individual players come out and make things happen, we want the thrill of Ronaldo, Giggs, Kanchelskis bombing down the wings making things happen and we don't want to give up on a manager that wants that too just because results don't always favour us. The replacement of Fred in particular will be a massive change for United today, personally I think a partnership of Rice and McTomminay would do exactly what we want and need in this way and will be slightly upset if as seems likely, we don't get him.

The knee jerk isn't knee jerk though, people are now completely divided on style lines having spent so much time being coached via the media that system play is the only viable solution and those managers who employ something else are archaic, old fashioned managers that cannot win. Strange how head to head though, each of those system teams are nullified on a regular by our team, it is instead those in the middle of the league which cause United so many problems. Someone needs to step up and thus far we have failed to either sign or create someone who has done just that in the centre of our midfield, it'll come, it always does. Until then, enjoy the wins and rue the losses but blaming our manager seems at least to me, silly.
I like your post, quite a lot, but you jump to a few conclusions that are quite the overreach I would say.

First of all, of course an objective system will always work better than a free flowing one, it's been proven over and over again in the last 10 to 20 years.
Second of all, keep enjoying our team "nullifying the others on a regular" while Liverpool and City will nullify us at the end of each season, with a trophy or two.
And last, in every hierarchy there's someone to blame, that's how business works. A manager is responsible for his team's results and achieved objectives. If targets are not met, he's to blame, end of story, especially in this world where he's given 150 mil a season to spend and players cost 70 mil on an average.

I could use the same overreaching conclusions as you and translate your post into "Let's play a free flowing system where everyone does what the feck they want and keep changing 100mil players because blaming the guy responsible for results is silly", c'mon.

I was an Ole "inner" until the 1st game of the season, especially after seeing the signings. But I saw nothing new until now, nothing special, you can't play season in, season out and repeat the same stuff, you just can't. I feel this is the point where someone will slap me with the "Ole is a man manager not a coach" argument.
 

Ledom

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I like your post, quite a lot, but you jump to a few conclusions that are quite the overreach I would say.

First of all, of course an objective system will always work better than a free flowing one, it's been proven over and over again in the last 10 to 20 years.
Second of all, keep enjoying our team "nullifying the others on a regular" while Liverpool and City will nullify us at the end of each season, with a trophy or two.
And last, in every hierarchy there's someone to blame, that's how business works. A manager is responsible for his team's results and achieved objectives. If targets are not met, he's to blame, end of story, especially in this world where he's given 150 mil a season to spend and players cost 70 mil on an average.

I could use the same overreaching conclusions as you and translate your post into "Let's play a free flowing system where everyone does what the feck they want and keep changing 100mil players because blaming the guy responsible for results is silly", c'mon.

I was an Ole "inner" until the 1st game of the season, especially after seeing the signings. But I saw nothing new until now, nothing special, you can't play season in, season out and repeat the same stuff, you just can't. I feel this is the point where someone will slap me with the "Ole is a man manager not a coach" argument.
You're right that I do jump to conclusions and I'd even accept that they may be an overreach, but without you pointing to specifics I'll not be able to defend them individually and remember that it's a forum where I just posted a huge block of text, nobody needs a + b = c to understand why I came to my conclusions, a tl;dr would be begged for. I'll simply say this though, what has been proven in the short period of 10 years is that the most proficient managers of todays game are objective system managers. These managers have shown that the operation of a fluid system and cogs does indeed result in wins, but personally I find that style boring and always have. If success is all you're looking for then adaptation to an objective system does in this period of time seem to be the obvious solution, this however would lead to many of our current players having to readapt and as has been shown preOle many of these players would be forced out of the club as they fail to adapt to it. Objective system play would cause Shaw, Wan Bissaka and likely even Ronaldo to struggle more whilst players such as Fred, Lindelof and Pogba would likely flourish.

Secondly, if we have no divine right to win games then it becomes more about the pure reason for why the sport exists to me. Is football supposed to be a release from the day to day world where cogs create more efficient parts of a capitalistic system. Or should sport reflect life and indeed only ever produce efficiency in pursuit of an aim. I don't believe that losing a trophy because we play in a more enjoyable way (at least for me) is that much of an issue, I want to see us challenge and I want to see us win, but not at the cost of my personal entertainment.

You're right that the tl;dr would simply be, lets play free flowing football and I hold no problem with you disagreeing but it does seem the manager prefers what I do and that, in the end, is why people have such an issue with our manager. Either they buy into his ethos or they don't.

Finally, I'm neither an Ole inner or outter, I don't care. I want to watch the club I grew up with playing a style of play that I find enjoyable, the trophies will either come or they won't and I don't think that trophies are the be all end all of the game either. I spent 26 years with Sir Alex, the ups and the downs. I watched on this forum the meme grow of Sack Giggs, Sell Fergie, the humiliation of Ruud and the burning of Beckham. I watched as people complained at winker because he was a show pony and see those same people today cry that he doesn't bomb up and down cause he's a fraud. Yet in all that time, I've wanted and received the same joy from my team in wins and losses and despite myself I fell for the club through it. In the end, I'd hope we are all the same.
 
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Tom Cato

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I think football may genuinely be the only sport where the players are not blamed for anything. And when they are, its with a massive "Yes, BUT"
 

redmanx

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I've said this before but I'll say it again, some people, many people on this forum and across our fan base want United to play with an objective system. They want player X to pass to player Y in a certain situation, to move from place A to place B when given the ball whilst player Z moves to another location waiting for the ball to be given by player Y who only has player Z in his mind. There is room in these forms of systems for some player expression, but that expression is for the most part muted for efficient play style. There are some really important things to remember with this concept though and the first most important of them being that in a system such as this, every player is simply a cog in a wheel, easily replaced for another system player who can come into the game and perform an exact role which compliments or shifts the behaviour of the other cogs on the field in a certain situation. Players know that at 1-0 down with a shift from player Y to player P their system has moved to either a more defensive or more offensive setup which informs them of the behaviours they are to employ in the oncoming phases of the game.

If this is the style of play that you're looking for then I'm unsurprised when there are those who call for the end of Ole's time at Manchester United, he doesn't coach this way and likely never will.

There is of course another system of play, in this form of system the players are given their starting roles and encouraged to remain in certain areas of the field, A left back for instance will be encouraged to either sit back and wait for the opponent to drive forwards before engaging with them and setting up a counter, or asked to drive up the field for width allowing the left winger, inverted winger, inside forward et al to cause problems in the middle of the pitch. In this system the behaviours of certain players are coached individually, each behaviour in set to allow for expression and as many have put it on the forum causes teams to look like they're waiting for individual brilliance to come up with something special.

During Sir Alex's time as a manager he employed the secondary system. Irwin and Neville were never instructed directly that they MUST give the ball to Giggs or Beckham respectively, instead they were encouraged to play to their strengths as players with the knowledge that each respective player on the pitch would do their bit to open space, drive the ball forwards, or simply score goals (Hughesm Berbatov and van Nistelrooj come to mind here). In truth. there were times during Sir Alex's career that fans and other coaches alike called this system archaic and demanded a modern adaptation of this game to a more formulated structure. These calls were mostly from those who enjoyed tiki taka football or Wenger's passing setup at Arsenal, yet it was never part of the makeup of a Manchester United side. We are, were and developed as a counter-attacking team with strong wingers and a central block that remained stoic throughout a 38 game season. There were good and bad games but the fans knew that through 38 games, quality would no doubt shine through and the team would be there or there abouts at the end of the season.

Sir Alex had issues with Guardiola, Wenger, Mourinho and plenty of others who played football in the more efficient first style, he in time developed certain counter measures for each team or would come to reflect on decisions he could have made instead. Mourinho at Chelsea saw the emergence of Darren Fletcher as the most prominent midfielder to counter balance Essien, whilst Evra and Brown were considered regularly as wingbacks to stretch his team against Terry and Carvalho or negate Ashley Cole who bombed through much of Europe at the time. With Wenger in the early years the force of Keane was used in the centre of the park to create issues between a Vieira and Petit centre line that sat back to spread the ball to Parlour and leave Wright with no options further forward. In fact, Keane became such an important part of this game every year that it would lead to much of the player base elevating Keane to legendary status. When Arsenal moved to Fabregas later in Wengers time, Keane who had got older and no longer had the legs, was still employed in many Arsenal games this time to shadow and bully Fabregas who was the essential pivot. Keane's simple elegance in these games was his ability to remove a central part of the system team's development through the pitch. Isolation of these players would often leave the team devoid of answers, make them (certainly arsenal) look bulliable and mean that Ferguson's trust in his players core abilities would often pay dividends as they carved out wins despite the odd hick up. To further this point on Arsenal, when Carrick signed, the majority of fans didn't want the signing because our midfield was going to be forced to play into these teams more often, gifting them the ball and hitting them on the counter in new ways as we no longer had the central piece of the puzzle we had relied upon for 10 years. As for Guardiola, Ferguson is noted as saying his regret here is still not using Park, in fact Ferguson believes that the use of Park against Messi would have done exactly the same thing as we had seen Keane do against Fabregas years earlier. Messi might be a skillful player, one that looks like the ball is glued to his feet, yet if Park had been employed effectively, the pivot would have been broken up and allowed for United to counter more effectively have neutralised their biggest threat. Whilst many of us (myself included) may disagree that Messi was the only problem on that field, it is no doubt comforting that Sir Alex believed it to be our biggest issue.

There is nothing wrong with either system, in fact both systems have through out time been shown to be effective in different leagues and with different managers but both styles have their place. Ole grew up at Manchester United and watched Sir Alex adopting these tactics and gaining results for a long time, despite the more methodical systems around him. It isn't unreasonable to believe that his style and concept of football management was grown from this and certainly when watching the game on a Saturday I personally see more of the second type of football on show than the first and I for one don't have issues with that, even if it means that sometimes we lose games where we should win.

We have no divine right to win the league, we are a football club that has been managed by a plethora of talented managers who play system football, be they the Doc, Atkinson, van Gaal or Mourinho none stuck. They didn't fit with the club, they didn't fit with the fans and they don't fit with our brand. Ole might not win the league, hell we might spend the next 10 years fighting for 2nd place but I very much doubt it. Yes we have issues playing against a low block formation, for many this is because we have yet to find the player who can be our Carrick, Scholes, Ince or Keane... hell even a Fletcher might do it. Yet there are those who complain that we still aren't a system team, we don't have the chess like proficiency of City, Liverpool or Chelsea and they wonder if we ever will. I don't think it's needed, nor do I think it's wanted by many of us. We want to see individual players come out and make things happen, we want the thrill of Ronaldo, Giggs, Kanchelskis bombing down the wings making things happen and we don't want to give up on a manager that wants that too just because results don't always favour us. The replacement of Fred in particular will be a massive change for United today, personally I think a partnership of Rice and McTomminay would do exactly what we want and need in this way and will be slightly upset if as seems likely, we don't get him.

The knee jerk isn't knee jerk though, people are now completely divided on style lines having spent so much time being coached via the media that system play is the only viable solution and those managers who employ something else are archaic, old fashioned managers that cannot win. Strange how head to head though, each of those system teams are nullified on a regular by our team, it is instead those in the middle of the league which cause United so many problems. Someone needs to step up and thus far we have failed to either sign or create someone who has done just that in the centre of our midfield, it'll come, it always does. Until then, enjoy the wins and rue the losses but blaming our manager seems at least to me, silly.
Whats wrong with the great Sir Matt Busbys "Go out and express yourselves!" I want United to win everything as we did under SAF but not at the expense of entertainment. Granted there has to be some "system" employed these days and I certainly dont want United to be just a mediocre mid table outfit, but as the great Franz Beckenbaur once said "football is a simple game and the team which scores most goals wins" or words to that effect. I can never understand why naturally gifted players like Ronaldo, Bruno, Rashford, Greenwood etc etc need "coaching" as we see it today. Yes they should be drilled in defensive duties, support roles, free kicks etc but in open play they should be allowed to "express themselves" freely!
 

Womp

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Whats wrong with the great Sir Matt Busbys "Go out and express yourselves!" I want United to win everything as we did under SAF but not at the expense of entertainment. Granted there has to be some "system" employed these days and I certainly dont want United to be just a mediocre mid table outfit, but as the great Franz Beckenbaur once said "football is a simple game and the team which scores most goals wins" or words to that effect. I can never understand why naturally gifted players like Ronaldo, Bruno, Rashford, Greenwood etc etc need "coaching" as we see it today. Yes they should be drilled in defensive duties, support roles, free kicks etc but in open play they should be allowed to "express themselves" freely!
Because the game has evolved? We are competing with teams that have players just as good, but who are playing in a system which elevates them to even higher levels. It's not like we have Marcus out there nutmegging Sunday league players.
 

romufc

Full Member
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Messages
12,557
I think football may genuinely be the only sport where the players are not blamed for anything. And when they are, its with a massive "Yes, BUT"
Maybe because its easier to change 1 person (manager) than it is changing 16 players.

We have seen it with many clubs, change of manager can change how well / bad a club does.
 

Sky1981

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I've said this before but I'll say it again, some people, many people on this forum and across our fan base want United to play with an objective system. They want player X to pass to player Y in a certain situation, to move from place A to place B when given the ball whilst player Z moves to another location waiting for the ball to be given by player Y who only has player Z in his mind. There is room in these forms of systems for some player expression, but that expression is for the most part muted for efficient play style. There are some really important things to remember with this concept though and the first most important of them being that in a system such as this, every player is simply a cog in a wheel, easily replaced for another system player who can come into the game and perform an exact role which compliments or shifts the behaviour of the other cogs on the field in a certain situation. Players know that at 1-0 down with a shift from player Y to player P their system has moved to either a more defensive or more offensive setup which informs them of the behaviours they are to employ in the oncoming phases of the game.

If this is the style of play that you're looking for then I'm unsurprised when there are those who call for the end of Ole's time at Manchester United, he doesn't coach this way and likely never will.

There is of course another system of play, in this form of system the players are given their starting roles and encouraged to remain in certain areas of the field, A left back for instance will be encouraged to either sit back and wait for the opponent to drive forwards before engaging with them and setting up a counter, or asked to drive up the field for width allowing the left winger, inverted winger, inside forward et al to cause problems in the middle of the pitch. In this system the behaviours of certain players are coached individually, each behaviour in set to allow for expression and as many have put it on the forum causes teams to look like they're waiting for individual brilliance to come up with something special.

During Sir Alex's time as a manager he employed the secondary system. Irwin and Neville were never instructed directly that they MUST give the ball to Giggs or Beckham respectively, instead they were encouraged to play to their strengths as players with the knowledge that each respective player on the pitch would do their bit to open space, drive the ball forwards, or simply score goals (Hughesm Berbatov and van Nistelrooj come to mind here). In truth. there were times during Sir Alex's career that fans and other coaches alike called this system archaic and demanded a modern adaptation of this game to a more formulated structure. These calls were mostly from those who enjoyed tiki taka football or Wenger's passing setup at Arsenal, yet it was never part of the makeup of a Manchester United side. We are, were and developed as a counter-attacking team with strong wingers and a central block that remained stoic throughout a 38 game season. There were good and bad games but the fans knew that through 38 games, quality would no doubt shine through and the team would be there or there abouts at the end of the season.

Sir Alex had issues with Guardiola, Wenger, Mourinho and plenty of others who played football in the more efficient first style, he in time developed certain counter measures for each team or would come to reflect on decisions he could have made instead. Mourinho at Chelsea saw the emergence of Darren Fletcher as the most prominent midfielder to counter balance Essien, whilst Evra and Brown were considered regularly as wingbacks to stretch his team against Terry and Carvalho or negate Ashley Cole who bombed through much of Europe at the time. With Wenger in the early years the force of Keane was used in the centre of the park to create issues between a Vieira and Petit centre line that sat back to spread the ball to Parlour and leave Wright with no options further forward. In fact, Keane became such an important part of this game every year that it would lead to much of the player base elevating Keane to legendary status. When Arsenal moved to Fabregas later in Wengers time, Keane who had got older and no longer had the legs, was still employed in many Arsenal games this time to shadow and bully Fabregas who was the essential pivot. Keane's simple elegance in these games was his ability to remove a central part of the system team's development through the pitch. Isolation of these players would often leave the team devoid of answers, make them (certainly arsenal) look bulliable and mean that Ferguson's trust in his players core abilities would often pay dividends as they carved out wins despite the odd hick up. To further this point on Arsenal, when Carrick signed, the majority of fans didn't want the signing because our midfield was going to be forced to play into these teams more often, gifting them the ball and hitting them on the counter in new ways as we no longer had the central piece of the puzzle we had relied upon for 10 years. As for Guardiola, Ferguson is noted as saying his regret here is still not using Park, in fact Ferguson believes that the use of Park against Messi would have done exactly the same thing as we had seen Keane do against Fabregas years earlier. Messi might be a skillful player, one that looks like the ball is glued to his feet, yet if Park had been employed effectively, the pivot would have been broken up and allowed for United to counter more effectively have neutralised their biggest threat. Whilst many of us (myself included) may disagree that Messi was the only problem on that field, it is no doubt comforting that Sir Alex believed it to be our biggest issue.

There is nothing wrong with either system, in fact both systems have through out time been shown to be effective in different leagues and with different managers but both styles have their place. Ole grew up at Manchester United and watched Sir Alex adopting these tactics and gaining results for a long time, despite the more methodical systems around him. It isn't unreasonable to believe that his style and concept of football management was grown from this and certainly when watching the game on a Saturday I personally see more of the second type of football on show than the first and I for one don't have issues with that, even if it means that sometimes we lose games where we should win.

We have no divine right to win the league, we are a football club that has been managed by a plethora of talented managers who play system football, be they the Doc, Atkinson, van Gaal or Mourinho none stuck. They didn't fit with the club, they didn't fit with the fans and they don't fit with our brand. Ole might not win the league, hell we might spend the next 10 years fighting for 2nd place but I very much doubt it. Yes we have issues playing against a low block formation, for many this is because we have yet to find the player who can be our Carrick, Scholes, Ince or Keane... hell even a Fletcher might do it. Yet there are those who complain that we still aren't a system team, we don't have the chess like proficiency of City, Liverpool or Chelsea and they wonder if we ever will. I don't think it's needed, nor do I think it's wanted by many of us. We want to see individual players come out and make things happen, we want the thrill of Ronaldo, Giggs, Kanchelskis bombing down the wings making things happen and we don't want to give up on a manager that wants that too just because results don't always favour us. The replacement of Fred in particular will be a massive change for United today, personally I think a partnership of Rice and McTomminay would do exactly what we want and need in this way and will be slightly upset if as seems likely, we don't get him.

The knee jerk isn't knee jerk though, people are now completely divided on style lines having spent so much time being coached via the media that system play is the only viable solution and those managers who employ something else are archaic, old fashioned managers that cannot win. Strange how head to head though, each of those system teams are nullified on a regular by our team, it is instead those in the middle of the league which cause United so many problems. Someone needs to step up and thus far we have failed to either sign or create someone who has done just that in the centre of our midfield, it'll come, it always does. Until then, enjoy the wins and rue the losses but blaming our manager seems at least to me, silly.
Great post. I'll buy you a beer if you're here
 

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
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Messages
61,670
I think football may genuinely be the only sport where the players are not blamed for anything. And when they are, its with a massive "Yes, BUT"
But they do, all the time. You only have to hear Ole in saying that Ole is certainly not telling them to commit the mistakes they are making as if tactics and coaching aren't important. We've got a squad with an average age of 25 and yet Ole in people expect them to have the football know how of a seasoned manager who knows exactly what to do with barely any need for someone to coach him or tell him what to do.

This is Ole's team. They are either horrible coached or else he signed a bunch of cretins who can't follow basic instructions.
 

stefan92

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Whats wrong with the great Sir Matt Busbys "Go out and express yourselves!" I want United to win everything as we did under SAF but not at the expense of entertainment. Granted there has to be some "system" employed these days and I certainly dont want United to be just a mediocre mid table outfit, but as the great Franz Beckenbaur once said "football is a simple game and the team which scores most goals wins" or words to that effect. I can never understand why naturally gifted players like Ronaldo, Bruno, Rashford, Greenwood etc etc need "coaching" as we see it today. Yes they should be drilled in defensive duties, support roles, free kicks etc but in open play they should be allowed to "express themselves" freely!
The issue is quite simple that knowing your options in advance gives you a split second advantage compared to needing to decide what you can do. As players are running and pressing more today, this split second advantage becomes more and more crucial. That is most of the reason why well drilled teams work better than individualistic ones and why this is becoming a bigger factor over time.

Without the now almost mythical patterns of play you give defences too much time to react.
 

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
61,670
Whats wrong with the great Sir Matt Busbys "Go out and express yourselves!" I want United to win everything as we did under SAF but not at the expense of entertainment. Granted there has to be some "system" employed these days and I certainly dont want United to be just a mediocre mid table outfit, but as the great Franz Beckenbaur once said "football is a simple game and the team which scores most goals wins" or words to that effect. I can never understand why naturally gifted players like Ronaldo, Bruno, Rashford, Greenwood etc etc need "coaching" as we see it today. Yes they should be drilled in defensive duties, support roles, free kicks etc but in open play they should be allowed to "express themselves" freely!
Sir Matt Busby had retired few decades ago and in his final years as manager it was evident that he was way past his expiry date. Football had changed a bit since then. Managers are expected to do more then hugging players, motivate them and to smile.
 

sugar_kane

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Messages
3,493
The gripe with Ole and his CV is also about the lack of conviction when put in a position to win a final or a semi that he's a favourite in. With Poch he at least managed to get into a position that he was never ever expected to be in with the CL Final, and made Tottenham a solid Champions League side which is a big thing on the CV even if it's not a trophy. It's why he'll be looked back upon with greater respect than say, Juande Ramos in his Tottenham career even though the latter won a cup.

With Naglsmann again he was just over performing, showing good football and an identifiable system. It was his far cheaper and lesser Leipzig squad that had the last laugh against ours last season and with such managers (nagelsmann/poch) you just know it is a matter of time before their trophy lands. With Ole he can't win a cup in a B competition that he's fallen into. He can't get a good squad of players showing good football and it's 3 years in. He's gone against what he said at the start of his campaign about identifying pressing, out running, etc. and he's also playing square pegs in round holes. So all of these obvious faults exacerbates the fact that he has no CV on top.

I also think some parts of his work is overrated - like how he improved us post Jose. It's definitely credit worthy but you have to ask yourself how many half decent managers would have made the dressing room better after Jose. Most of them would have. Then you consider his 2nd place last season - it was progress on the season prior. But he fell away from 1st early on, and he had a novice equivalent for the first 6 months in Lampard, whilst Klopp had his entire defence out for more than half a season. And even still he fecked up in the CL, the FA Cup, the Carling Cup and choked in the Europa Cup. He's taken us as far as he can but if he left tomorrow I'd see him as a half decent stop gap manager, nothing more.
I don't disagree with absolutely everything you've said, but to be honest it sounds like you don't want to give Ole credit for anything.
  • Van Gaal and Moyes also failed where the dressing room was concerned, I don't see why Ole's success in this regard should be written off
  • It's backed up with stats that Ole made the team work far harder than under Jose
  • It's double standards to talk about Ole 'choking' when Klopp/Poch have done the exact same in their time at Liverpool & Spurs.
  • The team has shown at times that it can play well, people are blinded by whatever has happened in the past couple of months
  • Does anyone write off Leicester's league win because all the other teams were shit that season? It's on another scale entirely, but if you were being harsh about it you could say that's why they won it that year
I'm not saying he's a great manager, but I find it hard to take people seriously when they say everything he has done is crap or overrated.
 

Robbie Boy

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I don't disagree with absolutely everything you've said, but to be honest it sounds like you don't want to give Ole credit for anything.
  • Van Gaal and Moyes also failed where the dressing room was concerned, I don't see why Ole's success in this regard should be written off
  • It's backed up with stats that Ole made the team work far harder than under Jose
  • It's double standards to talk about Ole 'choking' when Klopp/Poch have done the exact same in their time at Liverpool & Spurs.
  • The team has shown at times that it can play well, people are blinded by whatever has happened in the past couple of months
  • Does anyone write off Leicester's league win because all the other teams were shit that season? It's on another scale entirely, but if you were being harsh about it you could say that's why they won it that year
I'm not saying he's a great manager, but I find it hard to take people seriously when they say everything he has done is crap or overrated.
He didn't write it off tbf, he said some aspects of his work have been overrated, and I agree. He certainly deserves credit for some of his work, but some people - not everyone - have a tendency to overrate this 'cultural reset' stuff. At the end of the day, LvG and Jose are well known to be difficult personalities. It is a bit ridiculous though, that nearly 3 years into Ole's tenure, we're still talking about things like dressing room harmony, and not trophies.
 

Bobcat

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I've said this before but I'll say it again, some people, many people on this forum and across our fan base want United to play with an objective system. They want player X to pass to player Y in a certain situation, to move from place A to place B when given the ball whilst player Z moves to another location waiting for the ball to be given by player Y who only has player Z in his mind. There is room in these forms of systems for some player expression, but that expression is for the most part muted for efficient play style. There are some really important things to remember with this concept though and the first most important of them being that in a system such as this, every player is simply a cog in a wheel, easily replaced for another system player who can come into the game and perform an exact role which compliments or shifts the behaviour of the other cogs on the field in a certain situation. Players know that at 1-0 down with a shift from player Y to player P their system has moved to either a more defensive or more offensive setup which informs them of the behaviours they are to employ in the oncoming phases of the game.

If this is the style of play that you're looking for then I'm unsurprised when there are those who call for the end of Ole's time at Manchester United, he doesn't coach this way and likely never will.

There is of course another system of play, in this form of system the players are given their starting roles and encouraged to remain in certain areas of the field, A left back for instance will be encouraged to either sit back and wait for the opponent to drive forwards before engaging with them and setting up a counter, or asked to drive up the field for width allowing the left winger, inverted winger, inside forward et al to cause problems in the middle of the pitch. In this system the behaviours of certain players are coached individually, each behaviour in set to allow for expression and as many have put it on the forum causes teams to look like they're waiting for individual brilliance to come up with something special.

During Sir Alex's time as a manager he employed the secondary system. Irwin and Neville were never instructed directly that they MUST give the ball to Giggs or Beckham respectively, instead they were encouraged to play to their strengths as players with the knowledge that each respective player on the pitch would do their bit to open space, drive the ball forwards, or simply score goals (Hughesm Berbatov and van Nistelrooj come to mind here). In truth. there were times during Sir Alex's career that fans and other coaches alike called this system archaic and demanded a modern adaptation of this game to a more formulated structure. These calls were mostly from those who enjoyed tiki taka football or Wenger's passing setup at Arsenal, yet it was never part of the makeup of a Manchester United side. We are, were and developed as a counter-attacking team with strong wingers and a central block that remained stoic throughout a 38 game season. There were good and bad games but the fans knew that through 38 games, quality would no doubt shine through and the team would be there or there abouts at the end of the season.

Sir Alex had issues with Guardiola, Wenger, Mourinho and plenty of others who played football in the more efficient first style, he in time developed certain counter measures for each team or would come to reflect on decisions he could have made instead. Mourinho at Chelsea saw the emergence of Darren Fletcher as the most prominent midfielder to counter balance Essien, whilst Evra and Brown were considered regularly as wingbacks to stretch his team against Terry and Carvalho or negate Ashley Cole who bombed through much of Europe at the time. With Wenger in the early years the force of Keane was used in the centre of the park to create issues between a Vieira and Petit centre line that sat back to spread the ball to Parlour and leave Wright with no options further forward. In fact, Keane became such an important part of this game every year that it would lead to much of the player base elevating Keane to legendary status. When Arsenal moved to Fabregas later in Wengers time, Keane who had got older and no longer had the legs, was still employed in many Arsenal games this time to shadow and bully Fabregas who was the essential pivot. Keane's simple elegance in these games was his ability to remove a central part of the system team's development through the pitch. Isolation of these players would often leave the team devoid of answers, make them (certainly arsenal) look bulliable and mean that Ferguson's trust in his players core abilities would often pay dividends as they carved out wins despite the odd hick up. To further this point on Arsenal, when Carrick signed, the majority of fans didn't want the signing because our midfield was going to be forced to play into these teams more often, gifting them the ball and hitting them on the counter in new ways as we no longer had the central piece of the puzzle we had relied upon for 10 years. As for Guardiola, Ferguson is noted as saying his regret here is still not using Park, in fact Ferguson believes that the use of Park against Messi would have done exactly the same thing as we had seen Keane do against Fabregas years earlier. Messi might be a skillful player, one that looks like the ball is glued to his feet, yet if Park had been employed effectively, the pivot would have been broken up and allowed for United to counter more effectively have neutralised their biggest threat. Whilst many of us (myself included) may disagree that Messi was the only problem on that field, it is no doubt comforting that Sir Alex believed it to be our biggest issue.

There is nothing wrong with either system, in fact both systems have through out time been shown to be effective in different leagues and with different managers but both styles have their place. Ole grew up at Manchester United and watched Sir Alex adopting these tactics and gaining results for a long time, despite the more methodical systems around him. It isn't unreasonable to believe that his style and concept of football management was grown from this and certainly when watching the game on a Saturday I personally see more of the second type of football on show than the first and I for one don't have issues with that, even if it means that sometimes we lose games where we should win.

We have no divine right to win the league, we are a football club that has been managed by a plethora of talented managers who play system football, be they the Doc, Atkinson, van Gaal or Mourinho none stuck. They didn't fit with the club, they didn't fit with the fans and they don't fit with our brand. Ole might not win the league, hell we might spend the next 10 years fighting for 2nd place but I very much doubt it. Yes we have issues playing against a low block formation, for many this is because we have yet to find the player who can be our Carrick, Scholes, Ince or Keane... hell even a Fletcher might do it. Yet there are those who complain that we still aren't a system team, we don't have the chess like proficiency of City, Liverpool or Chelsea and they wonder if we ever will. I don't think it's needed, nor do I think it's wanted by many of us. We want to see individual players come out and make things happen, we want the thrill of Ronaldo, Giggs, Kanchelskis bombing down the wings making things happen and we don't want to give up on a manager that wants that too just because results don't always favour us. The replacement of Fred in particular will be a massive change for United today, personally I think a partnership of Rice and McTomminay would do exactly what we want and need in this way and will be slightly upset if as seems likely, we don't get him.

The knee jerk isn't knee jerk though, people are now completely divided on style lines having spent so much time being coached via the media that system play is the only viable solution and those managers who employ something else are archaic, old fashioned managers that cannot win. Strange how head to head though, each of those system teams are nullified on a regular by our team, it is instead those in the middle of the league which cause United so many problems. Someone needs to step up and thus far we have failed to either sign or create someone who has done just that in the centre of our midfield, it'll come, it always does. Until then, enjoy the wins and rue the losses but blaming our manager seems at least to me, silly.
Top quality post.
 

Smores

Full Member
Joined
May 18, 2011
Messages
25,525
Top quality post.
Is it?

The idea that Sir Alex didn't have a system to his play and relied on individual coaching to get the best out of the team is nonsense. At most you can say he altered his system to the players he had on hand but he always inserted a very distinct style and made players follow strict systems.

There aren't many periods under Sir Alex where we didn't have an obvious system of play. I've seen more and more of these assessments and it saddens me that his time is being rewritten by some.
 

Ledom

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Messages
76
Because the game has evolved? We are competing with teams that have players just as good, but who are playing in a system which elevates them to even higher levels. It's not like we have Marcus out there nutmegging Sunday league players.
One could argue that the game hasn't evolved at all and sadly don't have the ability to respond more today after this post but lets look at the rudimentary elements of each of the big clubs in England and former counterparts in European Football.

Guardiola - Pep was a defensive midfielder who played under Cruyff at Barcelona, he won the Champions League and the Spanish League Titles getting 263 apperances in Barcelona's first team during that time. Cruyff believed in total football, today he would be considered an objective system manager who's belief in the "cog" system of footballers fluidly adapting into and from one role to another would cause nightmares with the current city team. Guardiola himself has taken that style of total football to what many would consider it's natural progressive end (certainly in the modern game) and enjoys the same such success as his former manager. Is Pep's style so drastically different from that of 1992 that it cannot be beaten? No, in fact those of you old enough to remember 1991 properly will know how easily contained by the right players it could be. Yet Barcelona were in this period considered one of the finest teams in world football, indeed when Pep took over at the Nou Camp and re-encouraged the age old total football style with Messi, Iniesta and Xavi they went on to win everything they could once more. Like it or not, we tried to bring some of that same total football style to Manchester United under van Gaal. You might say to yourself that van Gaal is old and past it but in truth he isn't, he was given a side that didn't understand how to play total football, tried to teach them and massively failed because the fans were up in arms long before total football could be achieved. Given Louis van Gaal couldn't bring total football to Manchester United in the past 10 years, I think it's safe to say that with the current crop of players we're unlikely to find a total football style manager who does well at the club. I could be wrong, but I don't think that I am.

Klopp - Jurgen Klopp was never a great footballer, he himself says so, quoted as saying "I had fourth-division feet and a first-division head", his masters thesis was indeed vaunted by Liverpool fans for the ending "You'll never walk alone", yet lets take this professional walker, defender and striker into the footballing world. His style is reminiscent of Paisley. defensive in shape, well ordered passes with players who are granted limited but clear directions. It is unsurprising that the Liverpool faithful took to the manager who has rightly or wrongly, placed the ability to win at the foremost and style of play takes a back seat. Unsurprisingly Liverpools last great managers all did the same, Shankley, Dalglish and a Fat Spanish Waiter all of whom took the same interesting tactical choices. Argue all you like but I'd say that Beardsley, Barnes, Owen, Fowler, Hypia, Gerrard, McMannaman and plenty of others would slide into this Liverpool side quite easily, their style and their formation would suit those players much in the same way as it does todays Salah, Mane or Firmino. This defensively astute, uncompromising style of hit them on the break has been employed throughout the years and has always been found out eventually. Liverpool indeed are still overly reliant on their strong defensive backline with van Dijk to actually perform well, otherwise as we saw last year, chaos ensues. We tried this with Moyes and it went terribly wrong, most certainly we could operate this way more successfully now however with Maguire and Varane but the fans would quickly turn on any manager who tried to play the "Liverpool" way at Manchester United.

Tuchel - Another nothing of a player here, yet Tuchel takes inspiration from two teams that will probably surprise. Tuchel was a defender, thus it shouldn't be a surprise that his biggest and best achievements in the game come directly from defensive excellence. Unsurprisingly Tuchel takes massive reference from Mourinho, those who remember the Portuguese man in his original Chelsea stint will know that aside from slow, boring, park the bus football, Mourinho was a man who came with files. Tuchel is the same, at least for me. His dull insipid football empties the joy from the room, stifling professionals with drone like methodical passing until finally a mistake is made and his team are able to capitalise. Unsurprisingly with better players, these mistakes are pounced upon quicker and with a big bullish forward at the top, goals are scored. We can see the transition from Mourinho to Tuchel in their choices of first team players, For Kante we can change to Essien, Makelele or before Mourinho we can look to Ranieri with Desailly, For Christiensen we have Terry or Carvalho, must I remind everyone of Babayaro? We can even see it in their attacking players, Guðjohnsen, Drogba, Lukaku, Lampard, Zola, Cole. Guess as usual it depends on style, but for Chelsea this is how they have played for almost 30 years now with very few other changes working out well in the long term for them. Again we tried this, we brought in Mourinho to do it for christ sake. We as fans hated the football. our players didn't respond to the training well and despite what many fans say now... we wanted him gone firstly because it was dull. Yes he caused chaos elsewhere but we knew that going in, the football wasn't right for us though and bringing in a modern version of the same doesn't change that.


Edit:

Can I just point out, I didn't say that Sir Alex didn't have a style of play. I said his style of play was well established as a counter attacking team that looked to a composite midfield of a defensive minded midfielder (usually someone more willing to get stuck in) and a more sprightly youthful attacking midfielder who could link with wingers and his strikers. He evolved from a 4-4-2 into a 4-3-2-1 and opened fluid dynamic football where he could and had the individual players to do so. It is unsurprising that in his biggest games he was called dull by many opposition fans who accused Sir Alex of removing the ability of teams to play "good" football by inserting a "bully" to break up their more dimensional football. Yet to suggest he micro managed his footballers was, is and always has been a lie. Clearly there are those who read what I wrote and thought, okay he's just defending Ole, but as I said in a follow up. I don't care. Ferguson attempted to play fast counter attacking football at its core and whilst I think Ole is trying to achieve the same, I'd accept that he isn't totally there yet. Neither was Ferguson when he first arrived in 86 and it took him until 91 to start showing what he could do. For the first time since his departure we are starting to see the same elements of player choices as Sir Alex made consistently. We aren't there yet and I realise that for most fans time is of the essence, but for me it isn't. I'm not going anywhere and I'm sure as hell that the club isn't either. I can wait. So when I think back and remember Kinky, McClair, Robson and Sharpe and look to the start of what we have today, I'm not that worried. Maybe I should be, but I'm not.
 
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Robbie Boy

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Here's a far more factual take on Fergie:

Contrary to coments saying Fergie had no style of play, every iteration who were seen as great sides had specific objectives and stuck to them like glue whilst Ferguson always made plans for what he saw as the biggest opposition threat or tactic - putting Park on Pirlo is probably the most famous one by now, but no means the only time.

Our greatest sides are as follows:

1993-1994: incredible pace and direction down either flank; always keep the opposition honest and mindful of being destroyed wide, which enabled the central core to really take control, firstly winning their individual battles (we nearly always had the best central midfields in the league under SAF) and then progressing the ball as they saw fit: hitting early and wide sometimes, but also having no hesitation in hitting early to Hughes, who was basically imbued with the power of hold up play and ball protection. Individual brilliance is always a thread in a Ferguson team, but it was always supplemented with a clear style of play or set of objectives. Cantona was the maverick inthat team who wasn't as tightly bound to a set of tasks outside of being his creative, talismanic self. You ask anyone who saw this side what they were about, and you'd be given very clear, decisive answers, very surely revolving around high octane, fast, overwhelming wing play and also lethal, rapid counter-attacking.

1998-1999: Again a side with very specific collective objectives and individual briefs. You knew what to expect of each player in the chain before the ball had even got to them and we had specialists across the whole midfield and attack (the best dribbler and carrier of the ball in the league; the best crosser and wide delivery of passes; the best two-midfielder and ball retainer in the league; the best goalscoring midfielder whose job was to ghost and affect play as he saw fit; the best #10 responsible for the intricacies of our final third play and the best off the ball runner in the league) it was an eclectic side capable of many styles of football from massive possession-based period, which led to insane goals like this:


To hard-running or battling football, as a game demanded.



2006-2009: again, individual job briefs married to collective ideals with individual brilliance interlaced into the team. Far more defensively aware and astute than the sides that preceded, but a total certainty of purpose to how we attacked, and if you put United in silhouette and were asked to point out which side that was just from the style of play and how they approached games, it would be easy.

If anyone believes the mantra of it was just go out there and play, under Ferguson, they've basically read half of a torn out sentence as the other part of that same sentence would be: 'go out and do the specific job briefs I've given you and stick to the collective objectives.'

If you look under the surface of most truly great 'freestyling' sides, they follow the same principles and are not just making it up as they go along: Zidane had peak Modric and Kroos killing the spirit of the opposition with infuriating ball retention and timely releases to any open man ahead of them with a DM behind them that enabled them to pass with abandon; the constant threat of blistering attacks down either flank; arguably the best ball-shielding forward in the world as a conduit for the whole attack to assuredly join the attack behind... that's a side who knows itself and precisely what to do at any given time: patterns of play is not just automation of skittles on a pitch: it's having a certifiable set of objectives each and every player knows and executes, which is what we don't have, and is, in totality, absolutely nothing like Ferguson era sides.

I think there's two distinct periods when you find out what teams are truly about: when they've got a puzzle to break down and a system or ideas have to break it down, and when they are discombobulated and under extreme stress, at which point, what they've been drilled to do has to take over in the chaos as there isn't the time to collectively make things up on the hop then. You will see in most cases that Ferguson's sides would then attempt to reestablish dominance through possession and composure to catch their collective breath and reset the tide, or, they would consciously engage in a firefight, backing themselves to win through in the ensuing chaos - nothing was quite as uncertain or left to chance, so for the calls of us not adhering to script or structure, it's clearly a false narrative.

If Ole is trying to emulate what we were under Ferguson, he's missing the mark by a long way as the only discernible style we excel at is counter-attacking with everything else looking uncertain and haphazard, which is why we tip to and fro from 15 minute period to 15 minute period let alone game to game.

Ferguson sides exerted control and dispirited the opposition with high retention numbers time and time again. We toyed with inferior teams after taking a 2-goal lead via possession and more often than not, the game would become a formality after we took the lead. That's very rarely us now. But that's why you never neglect midfield as it is responsible for so much of a games' flow and/or subsequent fallout.
 

Robbie Boy

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Is it?

The idea that Sir Alex didn't have a system to his play and relied on individual coaching to get the best out of the team is nonsense. At most you can say he altered his system to the players he had on hand but he always inserted a very distinct style and made players follow strict systems.

There aren't many periods under Sir Alex where we didn't have an obvious system of play. I've seen more and more of these assessments and it saddens me that his time is being rewritten by some.
It's saddening as it's only become a 'thing' since Ole arrived, and is used to defend him.
 

sugar_kane

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Is it?

The idea that Sir Alex didn't have a system to his play and relied on individual coaching to get the best out of the team is nonsense. At most you can say he altered his system to the players he had on hand but he always inserted a very distinct style and made players follow strict systems.

There aren't many periods under Sir Alex where we didn't have an obvious system of play. I've seen more and more of these assessments and it saddens me that his time is being rewritten by some.
Not really tbh. This SAF nonsense has been debunked on here several times.
Agree or disagree it's been thought through and considered and for that it's a top post of which we need more of on the Cafe rather than the usual hysterical parroted crap.
 

b82REZ

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I've said this before but I'll say it again, some people, many people on this forum and across our fan base want United to play with an objective system. They want player X to pass to player Y in a certain situation, to move from place A to place B when given the ball whilst player Z moves to another location waiting for the ball to be given by player Y who only has player Z in his mind. There is room in these forms of systems for some player expression, but that expression is for the most part muted for efficient play style. There are some really important things to remember with this concept though and the first most important of them being that in a system such as this, every player is simply a cog in a wheel, easily replaced for another system player who can come into the game and perform an exact role which compliments or shifts the behaviour of the other cogs on the field in a certain situation. Players know that at 1-0 down with a shift from player Y to player P their system has moved to either a more defensive or more offensive setup which informs them of the behaviours they are to employ in the oncoming phases of the game.

If this is the style of play that you're looking for then I'm unsurprised when there are those who call for the end of Ole's time at Manchester United, he doesn't coach this way and likely never will.

There is of course another system of play, in this form of system the players are given their starting roles and encouraged to remain in certain areas of the field, A left back for instance will be encouraged to either sit back and wait for the opponent to drive forwards before engaging with them and setting up a counter, or asked to drive up the field for width allowing the left winger, inverted winger, inside forward et al to cause problems in the middle of the pitch. In this system the behaviours of certain players are coached individually, each behaviour in set to allow for expression and as many have put it on the forum causes teams to look like they're waiting for individual brilliance to come up with something special.

During Sir Alex's time as a manager he employed the secondary system. Irwin and Neville were never instructed directly that they MUST give the ball to Giggs or Beckham respectively, instead they were encouraged to play to their strengths as players with the knowledge that each respective player on the pitch would do their bit to open space, drive the ball forwards, or simply score goals (Hughesm Berbatov and van Nistelrooj come to mind here). In truth. there were times during Sir Alex's career that fans and other coaches alike called this system archaic and demanded a modern adaptation of this game to a more formulated structure. These calls were mostly from those who enjoyed tiki taka football or Wenger's passing setup at Arsenal, yet it was never part of the makeup of a Manchester United side. We are, were and developed as a counter-attacking team with strong wingers and a central block that remained stoic throughout a 38 game season. There were good and bad games but the fans knew that through 38 games, quality would no doubt shine through and the team would be there or there abouts at the end of the season.

Sir Alex had issues with Guardiola, Wenger, Mourinho and plenty of others who played football in the more efficient first style, he in time developed certain counter measures for each team or would come to reflect on decisions he could have made instead. Mourinho at Chelsea saw the emergence of Darren Fletcher as the most prominent midfielder to counter balance Essien, whilst Evra and Brown were considered regularly as wingbacks to stretch his team against Terry and Carvalho or negate Ashley Cole who bombed through much of Europe at the time. With Wenger in the early years the force of Keane was used in the centre of the park to create issues between a Vieira and Petit centre line that sat back to spread the ball to Parlour and leave Wright with no options further forward. In fact, Keane became such an important part of this game every year that it would lead to much of the player base elevating Keane to legendary status. When Arsenal moved to Fabregas later in Wengers time, Keane who had got older and no longer had the legs, was still employed in many Arsenal games this time to shadow and bully Fabregas who was the essential pivot. Keane's simple elegance in these games was his ability to remove a central part of the system team's development through the pitch. Isolation of these players would often leave the team devoid of answers, make them (certainly arsenal) look bulliable and mean that Ferguson's trust in his players core abilities would often pay dividends as they carved out wins despite the odd hick up. To further this point on Arsenal, when Carrick signed, the majority of fans didn't want the signing because our midfield was going to be forced to play into these teams more often, gifting them the ball and hitting them on the counter in new ways as we no longer had the central piece of the puzzle we had relied upon for 10 years. As for Guardiola, Ferguson is noted as saying his regret here is still not using Park, in fact Ferguson believes that the use of Park against Messi would have done exactly the same thing as we had seen Keane do against Fabregas years earlier. Messi might be a skillful player, one that looks like the ball is glued to his feet, yet if Park had been employed effectively, the pivot would have been broken up and allowed for United to counter more effectively have neutralised their biggest threat. Whilst many of us (myself included) may disagree that Messi was the only problem on that field, it is no doubt comforting that Sir Alex believed it to be our biggest issue.

There is nothing wrong with either system, in fact both systems have through out time been shown to be effective in different leagues and with different managers but both styles have their place. Ole grew up at Manchester United and watched Sir Alex adopting these tactics and gaining results for a long time, despite the more methodical systems around him. It isn't unreasonable to believe that his style and concept of football management was grown from this and certainly when watching the game on a Saturday I personally see more of the second type of football on show than the first and I for one don't have issues with that, even if it means that sometimes we lose games where we should win.

We have no divine right to win the league, we are a football club that has been managed by a plethora of talented managers who play system football, be they the Doc, Atkinson, van Gaal or Mourinho none stuck. They didn't fit with the club, they didn't fit with the fans and they don't fit with our brand. Ole might not win the league, hell we might spend the next 10 years fighting for 2nd place but I very much doubt it. Yes we have issues playing against a low block formation, for many this is because we have yet to find the player who can be our Carrick, Scholes, Ince or Keane... hell even a Fletcher might do it. Yet there are those who complain that we still aren't a system team, we don't have the chess like proficiency of City, Liverpool or Chelsea and they wonder if we ever will. I don't think it's needed, nor do I think it's wanted by many of us. We want to see individual players come out and make things happen, we want the thrill of Ronaldo, Giggs, Kanchelskis bombing down the wings making things happen and we don't want to give up on a manager that wants that too just because results don't always favour us. The replacement of Fred in particular will be a massive change for United today, personally I think a partnership of Rice and McTomminay would do exactly what we want and need in this way and will be slightly upset if as seems likely, we don't get him.

The knee jerk isn't knee jerk though, people are now completely divided on style lines having spent so much time being coached via the media that system play is the only viable solution and those managers who employ something else are archaic, old fashioned managers that cannot win. Strange how head to head though, each of those system teams are nullified on a regular by our team, it is instead those in the middle of the league which cause United so many problems. Someone needs to step up and thus far we have failed to either sign or create someone who has done just that in the centre of our midfield, it'll come, it always does. Until then, enjoy the wins and rue the losses but blaming our manager seems at least to me, silly.
Absolute horseshit.
 

Robbie Boy

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Agree or disagree it's been thought through and considered and for that it's a top post of which we need more of on the Cafe rather than the usual hysterical parroted crap.
Well, agreed. But I don't agree with the premise whatsoever.
 

b82REZ

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Agree or disagree it's been thought through and considered and for that it's a top post of which we need more of on the Cafe rather than the usual hysterical parroted crap.
The length of the post doesn't make it a good post. Especially when the poster is making shit up to suit a quite obvious agenda.
 

Robbie Boy

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The length of the post doesn't make it a good post. Especially when the poster is making shit up to suit a quite obvious agenda.
My thoughts tbh. I agree that more well written posts are welcome, but that one is pretty baseless in all honesty.
 

b82REZ

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My thoughts tbh. I agree that more well written posts are welcome, but that one is pretty baseless in all honesty.
Undoubtedly well written, but completely biased and factually incorrect.

For anyone who wants to know if we played to instruction, watch Vibe with Five. Rio regularly gives anecdotes that emphasise Fergie most definitely drilled the teams with patterns.
 

Robbie Boy

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Undoubtedly well written, but completely biased and factually incorrect.

For anyone who wants to know if we played to instruction, watch Vibe with Five. Rio regularly gives anecdotes that emphasise Fergie most definitely drilled the teams with patterns.
Aye, this whole narrative about Fergie only became a 'thing' as a method to defend Ole. The mere premise of doing that, is pretty fecking ludicrous.
 

tenpoless

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The idea that Sir Alex didn't have a system to his play and relied on individual coaching to get the best out of the team is nonsense.
If he didn't he wouldn't be where he is today. One of the very best club managers of all time. First we have posters telling us that Ole football is at least better than Jose's which is a complete shitshow to be used as a standard. And now they're downplaying Sir Alex, the person we should respect the most when it comes into United. I can take the first one but whoever tries to drag Sir Alex to Ole level can feck off. It's disrespectful.
 

VP89

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I don't disagree with absolutely everything you've said, but to be honest it sounds like you don't want to give Ole credit for anything.
  • Van Gaal and Moyes also failed where the dressing room was concerned, I don't see why Ole's success in this regard should be written off
  • It's backed up with stats that Ole made the team work far harder than under Jose
  • It's double standards to talk about Ole 'choking' when Klopp/Poch have done the exact same in their time at Liverpool & Spurs.
  • The team has shown at times that it can play well, people are blinded by whatever has happened in the past couple of months
  • Does anyone write off Leicester's league win because all the other teams were shit that season? It's on another scale entirely, but if you were being harsh about it you could say that's why they won it that year
I'm not saying he's a great manager, but I find it hard to take people seriously when they say everything he has done is crap or overrated.
If you re read my post I have clearly stated he deserves credit but the level of praise is overrated. I never wrote him off for deserving no credit!
 
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These three are not the standard at all. The standard is Klopp and Pep as those are the two that have won the league in the last few seasons.
I'd use them as a standard if United had been as stable and as equipped as their clubs are personnel wise and it was just our manager's ability holding us back all these 7 post Fergie years.

The reason some can't see us challenging is because the quality of our style of play is not up to the quality of style of play that has been challenging in the past few years. Or do you disagree?
I can respect that view. I just don't agree and here is why:

In my view we have not been able to mount ANY sort of threatening title challenge because we lacked the equipment and singular direction for these 7 post Fergie years. Hence unlike most people, even though I have no love for Mourinho I agreed with his sentiment that finishing second to that record setting City with what we had, and what our other top 4 rivals had, was his biggest coaching achievement. Just like last season. In my view we finished in 2nd with fourth place personnel.

Yet right no we almost have a team that can actually make a threatening challenge. But our spine is currently still setting
. De gea is back from the cold, Varane is getting used to eiterh Magurie/Lindeloff, Mctominay/Fred have to get used to operating as a sole defensive pivot with Pogba or DVB, (now that Rashford is back). Not to mention CR7 is our new lead center forward. Even the player we bought to solve our low block issue Sancho, hasn't had the chance to bed into his true role yet. That is why I'm not as pessimistic as some are with ours tarts. Especially because we are 2 points off top spot and now are facing teams that are not low block teams. Which suits our current state far more
 
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You're right . The table doesn't lie but the last time a team finished second with 74 points in the last decade was Arsenal in 2016 which I think we can all agree was a very strange season indeed as Leicester won the league. There are anomalies seasons like the one I just mentioned.
Doesn't change the fact the table NEVER lies.

Last season was one of the strangest of all with the pandemic. Yes we came second and credit to Ole and no we didn't play badly all season but we were a million miles from the sort of form Liverpool showed when they finished second to City a get seasons ago. Context does matter.
Then use context properly if it matters. Don't be comparing a season in which Liverpool finished second, fully equipped to challenge, in the absence of corvid. To what happened last season amidst no crowds and corvid.


Do you think we'll finish above Pep, Klopp or Tutchel this season after finishing second last season and with the acquisitions we've made?
It possible. If our spine gels like I expect it to by late november. We will seriously challenge those 2 teams for the first time since Fergei retired. Then if we do add the missing piss in this squad, in january, we'd have no excuse to finish like 7-10 points behind a champion, if we don't win it our selves.
 
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Yes, any dissenting opinions are drivel but any opinions you have are gospel.
Drivel is drivel. My opinions don't have to be gospel truth for me to call out drivel for what it is. A moon can never be a sun

It's absolutely hilarious to me you claim to watch our games and think there's a coherent plan.
Just because YOU can't see one, Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Youa re not the seeing standard of the universe

I'd argue there's few people in world football who know less than people who see ole as anything more than a good interim manager.
Most of the world thought there earth was flat too at some point. They were also wrong

Also no one hates his guts. That's just "drivel" spouted by ole inners such as yourself. To deflect any responsibility he has
You guys bend over back wards to give him no credit. Lie repeatedly that he has made zero progress since he took over. On top of repeating the easily debunk-able myth that he is tactically clueless and has no plan and supposedly is responsible for United still being unable to challenge since Fergie lett . On top of calling anyone that challenges your blatant hypocrisy and lack of an actual plan beyond your inane desire to just want him gone as 'ole inners". Or worse people who lack standard as opposed to your majestic ones.

Id that doesn't count as hate.Then I should just call it a special brand of insanity....


Also, congrats we are able to convince varane to. Congrats, if you read the reports it was fletcher and the board who proposed a coherent plan, not ole.So again not sure why you are giving him any credit.
There it is again., Insisting on giving Ole no credit:lol:
Varane explains how Solskjaer convinced him to join Manchester United


If he was sacked today there wouldn't be a single player except maybe mcfred who would ask to leave the club without giving the new manager a chance.
how is this actually a serious statement to make? Plus over the top disrespect for the man? Have you seen ANYONE argue that players would riot when Solksjaer was to leave if he fail to achieve this season?
Furterh still., why would ANY player not want to give a new manager a chance? Unless it was you or I picked form the street to become head coach?
 
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Isn't this the narrative since SAF left? We spent 1 billion since SAF left and you want us each season to expect 2nd place and EL because we're "not equipped to lift the league?
Straw man fallacy. I've never made such an argument

Who's fault is we're "not equipped to win the league" after spending shitloads of money each year?
How about Woodward? A fool whose plan less hiring and firing of managers and dithering in the transfer market cause us to change footballing direction 3 times like we were on a round about whilst our rivals progressed? A mess it has taken the current guy 3 years to try and fix?

It does not matter the team is equipped or qualified to win the league, given the money invested, supporters are entitled to want consistent progress, proportional with the investments.
If fans don't care about how equipped or not their club is they deserve to be called entitled and deluded. Period


Delusional is not having unrealistic expectations as a fan,
Wrong.

This below
delusional is hiring the wrong managers and hoping, somehow, they'll suddenly turn into god damn gold once they get to Old Trafford.
Is precisely what deluded fans want.

"Hire Conte. He has the best cv" is exhibit A. No regard to whether he is an actual good fit, for the club or squad, plays a formation and a style they actually want to see over 60 games a season
.
 

sangria

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Doesn't change the fact the table NEVER lies.


Then use context properly if it matters. Don't be comparing a season in which Liverpool finished second, fully equipped to challenge, in the absence of corvid. To what happened last season amidst no crowds and corvid.
There may have been no crowds, but with all the corvid around, there was plenty of crowing.
 

Chesterlestreet

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One could argue that the game hasn't evolved at all and sadly don't have the ability to respond more today after this post but lets look at the rudimentary elements of each of the big clubs in England and former counterparts in European Football.

Guardiola - Pep was a defensive midfielder who played under Cruyff at Barcelona, he won the Champions League and the Spanish League Titles getting 263 apperances in Barcelona's first team during that time. Cruyff believed in total football, today he would be considered an objective system manager who's belief in the "cog" system of footballers fluidly adapting into and from one role to another would cause nightmares with the current city team. Guardiola himself has taken that style of total football to what many would consider it's natural progressive end (certainly in the modern game) and enjoys the same such success as his former manager. Is Pep's style so drastically different from that of 1992 that it cannot be beaten? No, in fact those of you old enough to remember 1991 properly will know how easily contained by the right players it could be. Yet Barcelona were in this period considered one of the finest teams in world football, indeed when Pep took over at the Nou Camp and re-encouraged the age old total football style with Messi, Iniesta and Xavi they went on to win everything they could once more. Like it or not, we tried to bring some of that same total football style to Manchester United under van Gaal. You might say to yourself that van Gaal is old and past it but in truth he isn't, he was given a side that didn't understand how to play total football, tried to teach them and massively failed because the fans were up in arms long before total football could be achieved. Given Louis van Gaal couldn't bring total football to Manchester United in the past 10 years, I think it's safe to say that with the current crop of players we're unlikely to find a total football style manager who does well at the club. I could be wrong, but I don't think that I am.

Klopp - Jurgen Klopp was never a great footballer, he himself says so, quoted as saying "I had fourth-division feet and a first-division head", his masters thesis was indeed vaunted by Liverpool fans for the ending "You'll never walk alone", yet lets take this professional walker, defender and striker into the footballing world. His style is reminiscent of Paisley. defensive in shape, well ordered passes with players who are granted limited but clear directions. It is unsurprising that the Liverpool faithful took to the manager who has rightly or wrongly, placed the ability to win at the foremost and style of play takes a back seat. Unsurprisingly Liverpools last great managers all did the same, Shankley, Dalglish and a Fat Spanish Waiter all of whom took the same interesting tactical choices. Argue all you like but I'd say that Beardsley, Barnes, Owen, Fowler, Hypia, Gerrard, McMannaman and plenty of others would slide into this Liverpool side quite easily, their style and their formation would suit those players much in the same way as it does todays Salah, Mane or Firmino. This defensively astute, uncompromising style of hit them on the break has been employed throughout the years and has always been found out eventually. Liverpool indeed are still overly reliant on their strong defensive backline with van Dijk to actually perform well, otherwise as we saw last year, chaos ensues. We tried this with Moyes and it went terribly wrong, most certainly we could operate this way more successfully now however with Maguire and Varane but the fans would quickly turn on any manager who tried to play the "Liverpool" way at Manchester United.

Tuchel - Another nothing of a player here, yet Tuchel takes inspiration from two teams that will probably surprise. Tuchel was a defender, thus it shouldn't be a surprise that his biggest and best achievements in the game come directly from defensive excellence. Unsurprisingly Tuchel takes massive reference from Mourinho, those who remember the Portuguese man in his original Chelsea stint will know that aside from slow, boring, park the bus football, Mourinho was a man who came with files. Tuchel is the same, at least for me. His dull insipid football empties the joy from the room, stifling professionals with drone like methodical passing until finally a mistake is made and his team are able to capitalise. Unsurprisingly with better players, these mistakes are pounced upon quicker and with a big bullish forward at the top, goals are scored. We can see the transition from Mourinho to Tuchel in their choices of first team players, For Kante we can change to Essien, Makelele or before Mourinho we can look to Ranieri with Desailly, For Christiensen we have Terry or Carvalho, must I remind everyone of Babayaro? We can even see it in their attacking players, Guðjohnsen, Drogba, Lukaku, Lampard, Zola, Cole. Guess as usual it depends on style, but for Chelsea this is how they have played for almost 30 years now with very few other changes working out well in the long term for them. Again we tried this, we brought in Mourinho to do it for christ sake. We as fans hated the football. our players didn't respond to the training well and despite what many fans say now... we wanted him gone firstly because it was dull. Yes he caused chaos elsewhere but we knew that going in, the football wasn't right for us though and bringing in a modern version of the same doesn't change that.


Edit:

Can I just point out, I didn't say that Sir Alex didn't have a style of play. I said his style of play was well established as a counter attacking team that looked to a composite midfield of a defensive minded midfielder (usually someone more willing to get stuck in) and a more sprightly youthful attacking midfielder who could link with wingers and his strikers. He evolved from a 4-4-2 into a 4-3-2-1 and opened fluid dynamic football where he could and had the individual players to do so. It is unsurprising that in his biggest games he was called dull by many opposition fans who accused Sir Alex of removing the ability of teams to play "good" football by inserting a "bully" to break up their more dimensional football. Yet to suggest he micro managed his footballers was, is and always has been a lie. Clearly there are those who read what I wrote and thought, okay he's just defending Ole, but as I said in a follow up. I don't care. Ferguson attempted to play fast counter attacking football at its core and whilst I think Ole is trying to achieve the same, I'd accept that he isn't totally there yet. Neither was Ferguson when he first arrived in 86 and it took him until 91 to start showing what he could do. For the first time since his departure we are starting to see the same elements of player choices as Sir Alex made consistently. We aren't there yet and I realise that for most fans time is of the essence, but for me it isn't. I'm not going anywhere and I'm sure as hell that the club isn't either. I can wait. So when I think back and remember Kinky, McClair, Robson and Sharpe and look to the start of what we have today, I'm not that worried. Maybe I should be, but I'm not.
You point out some interesting superficial similarities. I'm sure many will question precisely how similar - say - Klopp and Paisley really are...but for the sake of argument, let's buy these similarities.

In Barcelona's case, it definitely made a lot of sense to hire Pep - who was/is a natural successor to Cruyff, with access to a group of players whose core (Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Messi) were graduates from an academy teaching a brand of football that can be traced all the way back to Michels, etc. There's an undeniable continuity there - and a system in place, not least.

However, the same surely isn't remotely true for any of the other managers you mention.

The "Liverpool way" or the "United way" are pretty vague concepts, ultimately. Not an actual "philosophy" you can build a football academy on.

And Chelsea don't have a "way" - you can't claim that Mourinho established either a brand of football or a "culture" at Chelsea in a manner that's comparable - in the slightest - to the Barcelona "way" (and not even to the much vaguer United/Liverpool "ways").

So - if Tuchel is indeed similar to Mourinho in some ways, that comes across as coincidence more than anything. And I certainly don't think the people who hired him (Tuchel) thought it was a good idea to do so because they envisioned him as some kind of successor to Mourinho (the good Mourinho, one would have to assume - not the meltdown version).

Similarly, it seems absurd enough to regard Klopp as a "successor" to any of the managers who enjoyed success in charge of Liverpool decades ago.