Micro managing games…Myth?

Both Klopp and Pep have won it all in the game and do whatever they feel is necessary during a game. They are not putting on a show and genuinely feel their team needs more direction or encouragement even from the start of a game.

Ole’s reserved approach and ipad technique stinks to me of someone who is trying to project an image that he knows what he is doing. That he is in control and that he doesn’t need to chastise HIS team during a game cause they do so much work before hand.

This myth is then shattered when we are one nil down to Sheffield United with 10 minutes left and he is on the sideline ranting like a maniac!

I think it’s a good point...if things are not going right in the first five minutes...someone should be on that touch line pointing it out. Maybe then we wouldn’t wait till the second half of games to start performing.

You are overthinking it, I did see Ole and Phelan go to the technical area and shout instructions at the players, even during the no fans games last year, yeah he does seem to be sitting down a lot of the times, but it's the same, whether you pace around the technical area or be seated doesn't matter, any head coach/ manager will do most of their work on the training pitch in the form of coaching, and in their game preparations, tactical instructions before the game and team selections, when the game starts, manager can only either make a sub, or a tactical switch, and that's about it, but it's still up to the players on the pitch to go and win the game.

Edit: not defending Ole here, but i don't think a successful manager needs to be an "all action on the technical area" type like Pep, Klopp or Simone.

Shouldn't this be in the 'We're an awfully coached team' thread?

When they're shouting from the sideline you can't hear what they say, having the manager jumping up and down shrieking instructions is just charity, the players nod and give them a thumbs up so they feel like they're contributing and making a difference, but the reality is no one can hear what they're shouting and even when we had the Covid season where they could be heard, yelling stuff like move the ball quicker is the same shit that Bill from North stand shouts.

Micromanagement will usually come in the form of the manager talking to a player on the sidelines and getting him to relay the instructions, or with some of the quirkier fellas hand gestures and signals. Giving indepth tactical instructions to the team as a whole from the manager's area is hard. In-game management such as you're talking about is something that'll often be addressed during training. There'll be a rough idea on how to react to going ahead, going behind, what to do if behind at a certain time or if so many goals needed etc. Lots of gameplans tailored to a bunch of possible scenarios.

A cavalier spirit and freedom to express yourself in attack is part of the United DNA, and from one point of view I understand what Solskjaer is doing when he doesn't want to micro manage the front. It can make us quite unpredictable in attack and players like Bruno will just do something crazy that works once in a while and it feels amazing.

However! There must be structure in midfield and especially defence. Our defending is woeful. It's all panic buttons and no calm. Even with Varane signed, it's still pretty panicky. The last thing I want is cavalier defending. More focus on positioning in transition of play, positioning during set pieces, reading the play and tracking the off the ball runners would do our defence a whole world of good. Right now, everybody is watching the ball and nobody is watching the play.

Our team clearly needs the carrot and the stick.

The stick especially at times when there's a defensive dereliction of duty

RedStarUnited said:

This is something that Carragher said during the last MNF. He said Pep and Klopp micro manage the hell out of their teams where as Ole seemingly just tells the lads to go out and enjoy/express themselves and thats it. Last season I watched the City vs Liverpool game without the fake fan noise. You could hear the coaches clapping for every tackle and interception, shouting encouragement for players to press or move the ball quicker. This was from both teams and it was coaches too not just the managers.

Yet time and time again I have seen us get battered and not one of the coaches on the touchline to give any instructions. Yesterday we are 2 - 0 down at home and Ole, Carrick and McKenna were all sitting down and not saying a word. I feel Ole almost always wait til half time to talk to the players about whatever messages he wants to relay.

Im I over thinking things? But surely if two of the best coaches in the world are doing it, you would think ours would try to do it too.

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I don't think it's as much about what the managers do on the touchline as it is what they do on the training field. Both Liverpool and City have a very specific way of playing that appears to have been superbly drilled into them over a period of time. It's not just 11 footballers but 11 footballers playing in a system as per the manager's vision which has been brilliantly implemented. They're just two examples, most of the top managers (Simeone & Conte over the years, now Tuchel and others) bring that in, and I think that's what we lack more than touchline instructions.

I suppose to be a top top manager you need to be a control freak (see pep, klopp, fergie) who can implement their way with the squad

If micro managing is a myth everyone can become a good manager by smiling and patting players in the back.

But hey.. maybe that's all saf are good for. Who knows.

You obviously can’t give more than basic instructions during a loud and frantic game. However if you’ve worked on different things during training then you can certainly trigger changes during the match based on that. For example you could get the message over to start a period of pressing or a period of sitting deep, for example.

largelyworried said:

You obviously can’t give more than basic instructions during a loud and frantic game. However if you’ve worked on different things during training then you can certainly trigger changes during the match based on that. For example you could get the message over to start a period of pressing or a period of sitting deep, for example.

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Exactly this. You can influence what your team is doing if you prepared them for possible changes. Otherwise it is difficult, but can still be done when you take a player to talk to.

However most of the coaches shouting on the touchline simply need something to let off steam to deal with the pressure and emotion of a game. That's resulting in shouts that everyone from the stands also does.

OmarUnited4ever said:

You are overthinking it, I did see Ole and Phelan go to the technical area and shout instructions at the players, even during the no fans games last year, yeah he does seem to be sitting down a lot of the times, but it's the same, whether you pace around the technical area or be seated doesn't matter, any head coach/ manager will do most of their work on the training pitch in the form of coaching, and in their game preparations, tactical instructions before the game and team selections, when the game starts, manager can only either make a sub, or a tactical switch, and that's about it, but it's still up to the players on the pitch to go and win the game.

Edit: not defending Ole here, but i don't think a successful manager needs to be an "all action on the technical area" type like Pep, Klopp or Simone.

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Yet they all are really. Can't think of one of recent times who was really successful and just sat all game. Except maybe anchlotti. Even Zidane you'd see pacing up and down the touchline.

mancan92 said:

Yet they all are really. Can't think of one of recent times who was really successful and just sat all game. Except maybe anchlotti. Even Zidane you'd see pacing up and down the touchline.

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You are right, but a lot of managers are on touchline barking instructions or gesturing or jumping up and doing some OTT stuff, but not all are successful, and as I said, most of the work is done on the training pitch and in the time spent for game preparations.

I thought I heard the bench a lot more on Wednesday night than usual especially at Scott McTominay.

OmarUnited4ever said:

You are right, but a lot of managers are on touchline barking instructions or gesturing or jumping up and doing some OTT stuff, but not all are successful, and as I said, most of the work is done on the training pitch and in the time spent for game preparations.

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Sure but maybe there's an intensity that you need to be at the top.

Ole is following Fergie’s book blindly. He wrote in his autobiography that screaming constantly in the touchline means you do not believe in your players and the practice + work that had been done before the game. The problem is I dont know if Ole can do the second part ( coach the team properly).

spiriticon said:

A cavalier spirit and freedom to express yourself in attack is part of the United DNA, and from one point of view I understand what Solskjaer is doing when he doesn't want to micro manage the front. It can make us quite unpredictable in attack and players like Bruno will just do something crazy that works once in a while and it feels amazing.

However! There must be structure in midfield and especially defence. Our defending is woeful. It's all panic buttons and no calm. Even with Varane signed, it's still pretty panicky. The last thing I want is cavalier defending. More focus on positioning in transition of play, positioning during set pieces, reading the play and tracking the off the ball runners would do our defence a whole world of good. Right now, everybody is watching the ball and nobody is watching the play.

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This. The obsession with tactical savants - beyond some key games - belies our traditional maverick approach to attacking play. SAF and Ole want unpredictability in attack regularly; the issue is that you can only do this with consistency IF you have a solid back-line -midfield shape/plan.

My favourite ever description of tactics at the highest level was of Vincent Del Bosque describing our tactics as
"TACTICAL ANARCHY."

Love it.

Tapori said:

This. The obsession with tactical savanats - beyond some key games - belies our traditional maverick approach to attacking play. SAF and Ole want unpredictability in attack regulalrly; the issue is that you can only do this with consistency IF you have a solid back-line -midfield shape/plan.

My favourite ever description of tactics at the highest level was of Vincent Del Bosque describing our tactics as
"TACTICAL ANARCHY."

Love it.

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More like tactically clueless tbh. Are you sure Del Bosque does not say that as sarcasm ?

Jackal981 said:

More like tactically clueless tbh. Are you sure Del Bosque does not say that as sarcasm ?

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SAF wanted his attacking teams from Aberdeen right through to United to be tactically unpredictable in attack generally speaking save for some specific scenarios/games.

Del Bosque was genuinely amazed at how much of a gambler SAF was in that particular match; hence he rightly described it as tactical anarchy as the more micro-managed considered approac from the continent was eschewed in favour of this tactical anarchy when attacking. It was a compliment.

The moment you begin to micro-manage every sinew of movement and play, you are creeping into Van Gaal territory and for all the merits of it,I prefer the former if combined with a robust defensive transition plan.

Klopp, I'm not sure, but I don't personally think so.

On the other hand, Pep always looks like he's trying to perfect every little detail.

RedStarUnited said:

Whilst I understand this, I just dont believe it to be true. The example game I talked about, the shouts were having an effect on the players.

All of this assumes the things I want Ole to shout about are things he sees as problems. He might not want us to press much and prefer we save our energy.

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While I was being a bit glib, there's a limit to what you can do. Talking to a player and getting him to instruct others is one way, especially during a break in play. And the covid season you mentioned is a bit of an exception because of the lack of crowd noises and the multiple breaks. Shouting encouragement is fine but usually you're just telling the fullback to watch his guy etc, simple stuff that the players are already aware of.

I think Supporters get frustrated when their side is behind and they see the manager just chilling, wanting them to do something and intervene. I don’t think “You could hear the coaches clapping for every tackle and interception, shouting encouragement for players to press or move the ball quicker” makes any significant tangible difference. It’s just frustrating for the supporters. Managers are gonna clap and shout, but Ole doing this or not doing this doesn’t mean anything to me tbh in terms of how effective he is.

This is a slight tangent, but I actually think the view from the sideline is kind of shit. I know they have people in the box with a better view relaying information, but I liked Coppell spending the first half in the stand, or the Scottish manager who had a glass box to watch from.

A managers presence in touch line isn’t just about micro managing of tactics. It can act as encouragement, a warning, a bollocking or reassurance. When the chips are down and players look to the bench and they see someone sat biting their lip looking like sometimes just told him off it sends its own message.

I’ve long thought he’s an irrelevance during a game on the touch line I genuinely don’t understand why he doesn’t watch the game from the stands. He’ll at least get a better view of the game. He would still be able to communicate with his staff.

RedStarUnited said:

You kind of dismiss tactics then say our ideal approach relies on a good midfield shape/plan. Isnt that part of good tactics are?

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Tactical anarchy is a tactic. Look, the point is that you do not need regimented attacking play; you need tactical awareness of how best to defend in transition. It's more a comment on the constant request for "We can't attack without a proper tactical mastermind."

The players have to think creatively when attacking; this has always been our tradition. The issue is dealing with the complete shambles when we defend.

stw2022 said:

A managers presence in touch line isn’t just about micro managing of tactics. It can act as encouragement, a warning, a bollocking or reassurance. When the chips are down and players look to the bench and they see someone sat biting their lip looking like sometimes just told him off it sends its own message.

I’ve long thought he’s an irrelevance during a game on the touch line I genuinely don’t understand why he doesn’t watch the game from the stands. He’ll at least get a better view of the game. He would still be able to communicate with his staff.

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I remember Evans getting a right blllcking off Fergie in a CL game.

A manager can only make so much influence on the touchline.
You are massively overthinking it.

Anyone thinking a manger shouting at you on the sidelines will make a difference should rethink, and maybe go back to Moyes And Welbeck...

A player can barely hear a manager during the game with a full crowd,

Tapori said:

I remember Evans getting a right blllcking off Fergie in a CL game.

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Bizarre reading above this suggestion Ferguson was some passive force on the bench. He’d run down those steps all the time during home games to give someone a bollocking. Usually the ref.

Champ said:

A manager can only make so much influence on the touchline.
You are massively overthinking it.

Anyone thinking a manger shouting at you on the sidelines will make a difference should rethink, and maybe go back to Moyes And Welbeck...

A player can barely hear a manager during the game with a full crowd,

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Then why watch the game there? It’s probably one of the worst vantage points in most grounds being on the side of the pitch. Also why do you think most successful managers think different?

Van Gaal actually spoke about this as he was seen as a manager glued to his bench. The thinking is that there is a limit to what can actually be achieved by shouting and remonstrating at players from the touchline. He felt it was more of an emotional response than demonstrably good management technique.

So that is one possible explanation, that it's not necessarily that the top managers all do it because they think it's fantastic, but actually that they do it because they have similar personality traits and that translates to nervous energy being expended by actually doing something to retain some kind of feeling of control.

Personally I'm not sure, I don't know how transmittable any kind of nuance is within that environment. We do have the staff get up and shout things, just not with the same regularity and probably fairly general concepts or something easily communicated if they've deliberated and actively decided it's worth doing. So you have to consider whether the extra volume of what these guys are doing by micromanaging can conceivably all be having a great impact considering the environment and the fact they've spent a week drilling.

Seems like the fact they do it and are top managers is a correlation and but not necessarily part of an explanation for why they're top managers. I think we've seen examples of both types of manager on the sidelines being successful or unsuccessful too which doesn't help.

spiriticon said:

A cavalier spirit and freedom to express yourself in attack is part of the United DNA, and from one point of view I understand what Solskjaer is doing when he doesn't want to micro manage the front. It can make us quite unpredictable in attack and players like Bruno will just do something crazy that works once in a while and it feels amazing.

However! There must be structure in midfield and especially defence. Our defending is woeful. It's all panic buttons and no calm. Even with Varane signed, it's still pretty panicky. The last thing I want is cavalier defending. More focus on positioning in transition of play, positioning during set pieces, reading the play and tracking the off the ball runners would do our defence a whole world of good. Right now, everybody is watching the ball and nobody is watching the play.

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Freedom is just the icing on the cake. 1 or 2 times in a game a player could decide to go against the norm and try something extraordinary.

It really doesnt mean they dont have a game plan for the rest of the 90.

Every movement on the pitch is a coordinated and concerted effort with everyone knew where to go and which to mark etc. Variation and deviation to the plan exist but they're a tiny percentages.

You can't play well on elite level without going into the details.

Cascarino said:

While I was being a bit glib, there's a limit to what you can do. Talking to a player and getting him to instruct others is one way, especially during a break in play. And the covid season you mentioned is a bit of an exception because of the lack of crowd noises and the multiple breaks. Shouting encouragement is fine but usually you're just telling the fullback to watch his guy etc, simple stuff that the players are already aware of.

I think Supporters get frustrated when their side is behind and they see the manager just chilling, wanting them to do something and intervene. I don’t think “You could hear the coaches clapping for every tackle and interception, shouting encouragement for players to press or move the ball quicker” makes any significant tangible difference. It’s just frustrating for the supporters. Managers are gonna clap and shout, but Ole doing this or not doing this doesn’t mean anything to me tbh in terms of how effective he is.

This is a slight tangent, but I actually think the view from the sideline is kind of shit. I know they have people in the box with a better view relaying information, but I liked Coppell spending the first half in the stand, or the Scottish manager who had a glass box to watch from.

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If your team is constantly outplayed then yes the manager should bark something. It's not barking for the sake of it but if he doesnt then how's he changing the teamplay?

If you see your left wing being overrun targetted then you should get up from your bench, watch close to the very least and instruct new sets of instructions.

We're far from a well drilled team that needs no tweak and just waiting for the goals to come. We're dysfunctional most of the times. And if the manager sits silently that means he's either not know what to do, ok with it, or simply dont care. Take a pick but none of them are any better.

You dont need to be animated like klopp or pep or even fergie. But the manager are the most important man on the match, analyze the match in real time and make improvements.

Abraxas said:

Van Gaal actually spoke about this as he was seen as a manager glued to his bench. The thinking is that there is a limit to what can actually be achieved by shouting and remonstrating at players from the touchline. He felt it was more of an emotional response than demonstrably good management technique.

So that is one possible explanation, that it's not necessarily that the top managers all do it because they think it's fantastic, but actually that they do it because they have similar personality traits and that translates to nervous energy being expended by actually doing something to retain some kind of feeling of control.

Personally I'm not sure, I don't know how transmittable any kind of nuance is within that environment. We do have the staff get up and shout things, just not with the same regularity and probably fairly general concepts or something easily communicated if they've deliberated and actively decided it's worth doing. So you have to consider whether the extra volume of what these guys are doing by micromanaging can conceivably all be having a great impact considering the environment and the fact they've spent a week drilling.

Seems like the fact they do it and are top managers is a correlation and but not necessarily part of an explanation for why they're top managers. I think we've seen examples of both types of manager on the sidelines being successful or unsuccessful too which doesn't help.

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That's rich coming from LVG because our football under him was emotionless, which was exactly the crux of the issue. Football is every bit, tactical, emotional, technical, physical and psychological. You need to manage and coach all facets.

As for the last part, the most successful managers are visible demonstrative on the sidelines. I've said this before, if we keep saying there are small margins in football, then you need to be using everything you got; motivating/screaming whatever you want to call it and constantly giving your players feedback on the sideline can give your team a 1% edge.

Sideline management is not a myth and it can be effective if you do it right.

Anyways as other posters have said already, for me, it's definitely another weakness of Ole.

You have a point OP.

At the very least when Demba Ba scored that goal from the corner with absolutely no one back, there should have been fecking someone on the touchline bellowing to our lads to get back. A goal which, by the way, contributed to us being embarrassingly dumped out CL of the group stage.

If they can't even get up from their arses to prevent a goal of that comical magnitude, chances are they just don't know what they're doing sat there. As opposed to them somehow being cleverer or better prepared than all the other top coaches that do micromanage.

criticalanalysis said:

That's rich coming from LVG because our football under him was emotionless, which was exactly the crux of the issue. Football is every bit, tactical, emotional, technical, physical and psychological. You need to manage and coach all facets.

As for the last part, the most successful managers are visible demonstrative on the sidelines. I've said this before, if we keep saying there are small margins in football, then you need to be using everything you got; motivating/screaming whatever you want to call it and constantly giving your players feedback on the sideline can give your team a 1% edge.

Sideline management is not a myth and it can be effective if you do it right.

Anyways as other posters have said already, for me, it's definitely another weakness of Ole.

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The problem is we don't know it's a 1% edge. We don't know that it's any edge whatsoever or whether it's a much larger edge than that. So to say it's a weakness of the manager, well...I couldn't say that with any confidence at all. Especially considering it's not the difference between one man sitting on his arse all game with no input from himself or coaching staff versus these hyperactive coaches, it is more subtle than that.

It's really the results and performances that it comes down to, and given we don't see the vast, vast majority of what they do then we've little idea what the correlations between certain actions and great management are. You would need quite a nuanced perspective to understand what weighting is placed on certain actions.

All we can really say is the sum of what Oles team is producing at the moment isn't good enough. Tactically, physically, everything. So overall his management isn't having the effect.

Sky1981 said:

If your team is constantly outplayed then yes the manager should bark something. It's not barking for the sake of it but if he doesnt then how's he changing the teamplay?

If you see your left wing being overrun targetted then you should get up from your bench, watch close to the very least and instruct new sets of instructions.

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The problem is what is he going to shout that that will change the entire dynamics of the team, if it's not something he's worked out in training beforehand? Usually if it's a major change in the first half an hour, it'll be something like a tactical shift (switching from man to man etc or a formation change) that they'll have an easy way of conveying and is something they'll have worked on in training, both in terms of being able to transition during a game and also a scenario in which the team should do this (losing the possession game, conceding within a set amount of minutes, needing to score within a certain time etc). Anything more indepth than changing to a pre-existing set up isn't something you can shout out, at best you'll talk to a player on the sidelines and get him to relay the information, but even then it's gotta be fairly simplistic because otherwise you'll have the problem of half your team changing their approach and the other half still following the initial instructions.

I'm going to use your example of the left wing being overrun. If you're shouting detailed instructions from the touchline, you're 10 yards away from the opposition manager and also some of the wide based opposition players. They can hear everything you say, you don't want to be giving them your gameplan. So in this scenario it's just better to have a word in your fullbacks ear, and also get him to relay the information to those who need to hear it. While there's a few tactical changes you could make here to help stifle them and plug the problem, more useful if it involves something more than just shouting at the fullbacl, you'll also get a manager who'll simply tell their fullback to wisen up or pay attention, but if their half decent the defender will be fully aware of what the problem is.

I find this between Dyche and Brady pretty funny.

While Hudson-Odoi was tearing Burnley apart last season, we had this exchange

Dyche : “Robbie!!! Tune in!!!”

Brady: “I know where he f**king is, I just can’t stop him. What do you want me to do?”

This is the problem with being a fullback, you'll spend one half being close to the manager and when you feck up you'll get an earful
I remember Mourinho spending halves just ripping into Shaw non-stop.

Sky1981 said:

We're far from a well drilled team that needs no tweak and just waiting for the goals to come. We're dysfunctional most of the times. And if the manager sits silently that means he's either not know what to do, ok with it, or simply dont care. Take a pick but none of them are any better.

You dont need to be animated like klopp or pep or even fergie. But the manager are the most important man on the match, analyze the match in real time and make improvements.

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I understand what you're saying with the second sentence, it is vitally important that the managers and coaches analyse the game in real time (it's also important the substitutes do this as well as it can help them massively when they come on), it's just that the way of applying any changes you want to make is best done by talking to a player and getting them to relay the information. This is because most of the players can't hear you, it stops the team getting mixed or misinterpreted messages, it avoids the other manager being able to hear your detailed tactical instructions.

Clapping tackles and interceptions, shouting encouragement or telling players to move the ball quicker is what the OP outlined and there's nothing wrong with that stuff, but it's more about firing up your team and motivating them than it is tactically micro managing a game. I'm sure it helps (well kinda) but if the problem is that the team looks dysfunctional and doesn't look drilled then that comes down to what happens on the training ground, and not how the manager acts on the sideline.

We as supporters like to see the manager animated and passionate, but I don't think there's anything wrong with the way Ole conducts himself during games, at least in terms of the things the OP outlined, shouting and encouragement etc.

Ole isn’t Van Gaal. He isn’t a manager with a laser-focused determination and faith in his footballing philosophy who has a track record that (he thinks) justifies that confidence. He is passive on the touch line because what’s he going to see shout? This doesn’t look like a team who drill passages of play in training that he could instruct everyone to revert to in a given circumstance. He also isn’t going to bollock anyone for playing poorly.

What’s he going to shout “Try and score a goal lads”?

Tapori said:

Tactical anarchy is a tactic. Look, the point is that you do not need regimented attacking play; you need tactical awareness of how best to defend in transition. It's more a comment on the constant request for "We can't attack without a proper tactical mastermind."

The players have to think creatively when attacking; this has always been our tradition. The issue is dealing with the complete shambles when we defend.

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Thing is, it should result in unpredictability for our opponents, not our own players!

That's the whole point of fluidity, to be predictable for our players and unpredictable for the opponent. And the only way to ensure the former is actually the case, is by setting up regimented attacking play but supplementing it with positional fluidity.

A tactic which is actual anarchy, aka unpredictable for both the opponent and ourselves, is not a viable tactic.