Why are Man United playing worse than last season?

FatTails said:

Fine margins not going our way this time around. Take today for example. If Bruno scores that early chance and we get them breaks with refereeing, maybe win a few more 50/50s, then you’re looking at a different game.

We probably would’ve still lost but not 5-0.

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We defended better last season as well, today’s goals were laughably bad from the likes of Maguire and Shaw who were two of our most reliable last season. Frustrating.

The goals we gave away just killed the game without Liverpool ever getting out of 3rd gear really.

We were better last season but not very good and most of all not very different. It was completely unsustainable how we played last year, often going behind and rallying back. Playing poorly at home and generally just not being able to control games. All of that is the same this year, but we aren’t coming back, we aren’t getting lucky like we did last year.

Because of 2 things. #1 he's done what he could just like Lampard did at Chelsea, no matter which way people try to spin it he's not good enough. #2 he's been completely found out by rival managers. They completely nullify his tactics because they can read him like a book and when his main tactics don't work there's no plan b because he's completely uncapable of adapting. Lump it up to Ronaldo. It's hilarious.

Paul_Scholes18 said:

I do not know why we are so shit at defending suddenly? We could defend in big games last season. Often getting 0-0, but at least resisted the other teams.
Now every defensive player is doing badly.

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Because other teams have found out how to disrupt our play and our weakness in that our wingers don't track back. If they overload then we are done for. This is exactly what is happening. For most of their goals today if not the player who scored there were others in good positions who could have scored.

Everyone is moving forward but we are stand still or moving backwards.

I'm avoiding the player performance threads because there's honestly nothing I can say or actually add value to. They deserve their criticism but I'm not going to bother analysing or try to provide insight because their platform (to succeed) is non-existant.

My overriding answer to every player's bad performance and all the thread questions like 'why are we playing worse', 'has our defence been fixed', 'what can we do to stop...' etc is all down to one answer and that's Ole.

The buck starts and ends with him as far as I'm concerned.

Nick7 said:

We were better last season but not very good and most of all not very different. It was completely unsustainable how we played last year, often going behind and rallying back. Playing poorly at home and generally just not being able to control games. All of that is the same this year, but we aren’t coming back, we aren’t getting lucky like we did last year.

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You say this, but a number of our wins have either been lucky or involved coming back. I don't think you can particularly say we aren't getting lucky. We were outplayed by Wolves and Villarreal, and would have lost both games if the opposition had taken their chances, but got late winners in both. We weren't really outplayed in mid-week like we were in those games, but it was still coming back from 2-0 down.

I think we're clearly playing worse, we have even less identity now. We're not even a counter attacking team anymore, our way of winning games seems to be just throw as many top individual attacking players on the pitch and hope one of them can win the game.

1 - The forwards seem to have stopped passing to each other in favour of individual runnong and shooting. Greenwood in particular seems to be learning the wrong lesson from Ronaldo. You can maybe support one player like that but not two or three.
2 - The forwards and Fernandes have stopped pressing.
3 - We dont know how to best use Sancho because he's not our typical 'turn and burn' wide player and tactically we're still very basic.
4 - We still dont know how to best use Pogba without defensively weakening midfield and we seem to have given up on the idea of playing him further forward
5 - The ratio between indians and chiefs has changed dramatically.
6 - we've had injuries to our 2 best centre halves.
7 - McFred's rythm has been interupted.
8 - We've kept too many marginalised players. The squad is now full of footballers who never actually play football, many of whom were promised games that they just arent getting. This cant be good for morale.

It's the lack of pens. Had one and Bruno skyboxed it. I blame Klopp.

Because Ole and his coaching staff are shit and clueless.

Because Maguire will never be a great defender, at best his just a good defender, now he is in shit form.

Because Lindolf is a meh defender at best and never good enough for United

Because Shaw is in a shit form.

Because AWB isn't good enough for United.

Because McFred is the worst midfield duo in the PL right now.

Because Pogba is useless player.

Because Rashford and Greenwood are naive and clueless.

Because Bruno thinks he is striker, not a midfielder.


Because Ronaldo is a has been player that should have not been bought.

Pick which reason you like.

Last season we were shite as a team anyway, we relied heavily on individual brilliance and it paid off. This season the individual brilliance just wasn’t there:

- Bruno isn’t half the player he was
- McFred has been exposed defensively
- Maguire and Shaw are getting worse
- AWB isn’t good enough
- unbalanced team, with 4 goalscorer, lack of pressing, and lack of midfield players for the build up play
- Pogba is still the United version of Pogba
- Sancho needs forever to settle
- Greenwood is too selfish, Rashford is too rash

The key problem is lack of coaching and playing style. We can’t rely on individual forever, this is the PL, the standard of team play is getting higher yet we are getting worse

This is exactly how we played last season as well but we were always rescued by individual skills . Teams has now figured out how to play us. Result wise , we aren't doing any worse than last season.

Lost to Liverpool at home, dropped against Everton,Villa, Leicester away last year too. Probably 2 points worse off last season.

Idxomer said:

Mate, last season we barely had one decent 1st half all season.

It was the most obvious false dawn of all time.

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some keep harping how are we able to get 2nd position if we played badly..

Ole's formations, a timeline:

First half season:
4-3-3 with 1 holding, 2 attacking, Pogba more advanced than Herrera

First full season:
4-2-3-1 with an awful 10, and then with Bruno

Second season:
5-1-4-0 as Matic stays deep while Bruno keeps getting higher up the pitch while Martial refuses to enter the box
4-2-4 with McFred in CM and Pogba LW

Now:
4-2-0-4 with McFred and 4 strikers


Many other things have gone wrong, but the distances between the attack and the rest have grown into a chasm.

Our piss poor performances aint a new thing, us unable to break defenses in final third because we have no clue how to, aint a new thing, at the end this whole thing happening now is only a surprise to those who were watching our games via livescore,com last few years.

sp_107 said:

Wondering if any new manager can do well with McFred in the midfield as it looks they are the better option than snyone else

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Our midfield isnt grand but i believe proper manager can work it out at least to be functional while relying on our strenght in the wings and AM.

If you dont have a prime scholes or keane you'd adapt, make your midfielder as the workhorse, just do the basic right and pass it along. There are 16 not top 4 teams that plays proper football with mediocre run off the mill midfielder. I've seen iceland played proper football in midfield with semi pro players, they just lack the individual skill to create goals but midfield wise they're solid.

What you need is a coherent tactics to link those pieces together though.

And there's alot of 10-20m midfielder that can do a fine job. They may not be xavi or keane but in the hands of proper manager they can function just fine. We can afford 30-50m midfielder for the next manager anyway, mcfred today doesnt have to be mcfred tomorrow. We still have VdB and bruno as well who can shine if given the right template

We weren't great last season and the results papered over some really mediocre football. Thing is, when you don't have excellence in your tactical organization you'll always be more prone to spurts and drops in form which good runs and bad runs here and there as you're so reliant on individual moments. Adding to that, with greater expectations Ole is now expected to get us playing more expensive football and that requires genuine skill and his usual 'go on and enjoy' thing doesn't quite cut it.

All in all, we are a Bayern/Barcelona level football club with a Crystal Palace/Burnley level manager. You reap what you sow.

What upsets me is that we've wasted 3.5 years we could have used to drill a proper style of play into this group. That's more important than headline signings like Ronaldo for good PR.

Without Ronaldo , 7points in 3 games. After Ronaldo joining, 7points in 6 games

Drainy said:

Maguire and Shaw have dropped in form. Ronaldo has disrupted the press up front and possibly the dressing room dynamics. McFred have forgotten how to tackle. Bruno isn't playing as superhuman as he was when he carried us.

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Is this based on a humor or something that I have missed?

The press up front point is pretty funny because we didn't do that with Martial and Greenwood is similar to Ronaldo's level at that. Cavani didn't play the whole season last season and hardly played this season due to injuries and international travels.

Seriously though.

VivaRonaldo85 said:

In the space of two months, the team has regressed dramatically culminating in todays humiliating defeat at home to Liverpool.

Last season, whilst we were in no way perfect by any means, we didn’t appear to have too many ‘major’ issues flaring up to resolve apart from an agreed need for more quality to our starting XI. This was addressed over the summer with three world class players added to the squad. In the space of just over two months, the issues Ole has watched brew to a horrible crescendo today are:

1. A major RW signing in Sancho after two years of chasing unable to be deployed in the first XI.
2. An appalling defensive record despite having signed the star CB we all craved to partner Maguire and the employment of a set piece coach.
3. Two of England’s summer heroes in Shaw and Maguire being unable to adapt back to club life.
4. Pogba’s final year of will he or won’t he leave on a free. I can’t believe we’re still having to consider does he want to be here.
5. Last season’s hero Fernandes looking half the player he did back then.
6. A disgruntled Cavani having been begged to stay now ousted to the bench as a bit part player having had a fantastic season last year.
7. A club legend in Ronaldo having the potential to act bigger than the club and affect what was being built within.
8. The trusty McFred ‘solid’ partnership last season looking like a miserable wet weekend now.
9. The ongoing Van de Beek saga made worse being his second season sat on the bench.
10. Players like Mata, Martial & Telles dismissed from even getting into some match day squads yet picking up hefty salaries for sitting in the stands.
11. No faith in Bailly whatsoever to replace an unfit Maguire.
12.The media finally latching on to the fact we are a poorly coached team relying on individual brilliance, something this forum has discussed for the past 12 months or so.

Any more reasons we’ve gone back or is it an accumulation of all the above? Am I being harsh in some of these reasons?

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You are not being harsh. You are just talking non-sense with many of those. Tf had anything to do with the likes of VDB, Tella, Mata or media. Sancho point is a moot one with he was not even in the team last season or barely getting in some game this season. Pogba plays as he always does, hot and cold. His contract situation didn't contribute to any major side effects here. We were not even that good 2 months ago. So?

And # 6 and #7, I bet you are in the know or something. Cavani himself has been hardly available this season. Martial could have been playing up top with his top work rate instead of Ronaldo for about 10 games while waiting for Cavani I guess or Greenwood who is known for his defensive contributions. Ronaldo affecting what was being built within? What was it exactly?

Only # 2, # 3 and # 8 have been major issues.

As many said, the team were able to grind out a lot of matches last season and a lot of people was hoping we would go another level with new signings this season. We don't. Hence, there maybe only one issue and easiest fix which is coaching staff.

Our offence is actually doing okay and the reasons are clear for drop in performance. But its a big mystery why we are suddenly so open and poor in defence even when we are playing broadly the personnel in the back 6 + GK as last season. All our dependably average/good/very good players like Maguire, Shaw, McFred, Lindelof have suddenly turned shit. Already we were thin in the midfield area but the loss of form of the players has derailed the team entirely.

bond19821982 said:

This is exactly how we played last season as well but we were always rescued by individual skills . Teams has now figured out how to play us. Result wise , we aren't doing any worse than last season.

Lost to Liverpool at home, dropped against Everton,Villa, Leicester away last year too. Probably 2 points worse off last season.

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Swordsman said:

some keep harping how are we able to get 2nd position if we played badly..

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amolbhatia50k said:

We weren't great last season and the results papered over some really mediocre football. Thing is, when you don't have excellence in your tactical organization you'll always be more prone to spurts and drops in form which good runs and bad runs here and there as you're so reliant on individual moments. Adding to that, with greater expectations Ole is now expected to get us playing more expensive football and that requires genuine skill and his usual 'go on and enjoy' thing doesn't quite cut it.

All in all, we are a Bayern/Barcelona level football club with a Crystal Palace/Burnley level manager. You reap what you sow.

What upsets me is that we've wasted 3.5 years we could have used to drill a proper style of play into this group. That's more important than headline signings like Ronaldo for good PR.

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Last season, apart from freak individual games like the Spurs one, we were generally compact and difficult to score against. This season we have been carved open at will by anyone who has played against us. This season's performances (not just actual results) are much worse than last season's.

We played bad last season. If you read the post of poster that actual understood football like myself, you will be aware of how i stated we got an unusual amount of luck that included penalties, individual brilliant goal and scrappy win. Last season, most fans just saws the result, but poster like myself noticed that something was off and when our luck dried up and the Result caught up to our bad performance, what we will see are games like we have seen this season.

I need to start making more threads, so more poster can see how insightful my previous post were. This is the same United we have seen last season, just without the good fortune and more imbalanced due to all the top attackers we have upfront.

I don't think we are, quite honestly. I think the play has been poor since Christmas but we've always had enough in individual talent to see us through. We're not getting those breaks this year. That's the thing that's missing, the individual moment of brilliance or simply overwhelming the opposition with an 11 vs 11 dick swinging contest of who has the players most likely - all things even - to drag their side over the line.

CG1010 said:

Last season, apart from freak individual games like the Spurs one, we were generally compact and difficult to score against. This season we have been carved open at will by anyone who has played against us. This season's performances (not just actual results) are much worse than last season's.

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I don't disagree. My point is that this isn't an accomplishment either. There are tons of managers out there who can get a huge club like United to be solid and hard to beat. This season we have higher expectations on us and with our attacking names we've tried to become a tad more expensive. Plus some poor form of individuals like Shaw and Maguire.

Either way it's not good enough

Carragher made a good point that if you're going to make Ole, an inexperienced candidate, the manager of United, then you need to surround him with highly experienced coaches like Carlos Queiros.

He is surrounded by people like Carrick and Fletcher who have never done this at a high level, or any level for that matter. The lot of them are learning on the job.

When this point was presented to Neville, he started banging on about Phelan, who despite rocking 80s hot pants in the summer, doesn't appear to do much.

Neville also said coaching doesn't make a difference.

I think I agree with Carragher here massively.

In my industry, if there is an inexperienced director for a movie, you can bet your ass the camera/sound/production etc all will have really experienced heads to help said director...

Ronaldo is our main goalscorer than Bruno Fernandes.

Ronaldo as our main player cannot link the other players in the team together.

Ronaldo as a top top goalscorer in the Premier league is just a poacher now that almost has the rest of the team playing a very basic Stoke like level of football.

As much as people hate to admit it - just as much as the crosses may be crap to him, the runs he make are not as good any more. His first touches can be lack lustre. He can make mistakes with bad shots that go wide or straight in to the opposition knee caps. His passes are meh.

Bruno Fernandes was not like that in similar positions- he was deadly. Scoring goals if not making passes that would lead to goals. If not make a run that would cause a penalty that he would take.

None of this is seen anymore.

No one blames Ronaldo.

It is Ole's fault- it's His lack of tactics that gets a 36 year old as the main man of a title competing side.

A juventus side that finished 5th or whatever and where we finish is really not that different. We were a team that had players that were playing individually but it felt like we had alot of them back in last season - Bruno Fernandes, Greenwood, Shaw, Cavani, Rashford, Pogba etc; now it seems we are only really as good as our ability to get the ball to Ronaldo and Ronaldo to put the ball in the net. The tactics have gotten even more basic.

CG1010 said:

Last season, apart from freak individual games like the Spurs one, we were generally compact and difficult to score against. This season we have been carved open at will by anyone who has played against us. This season's performances (not just actual results) are much worse than last season's.

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Not really.

We were picked apart in our opening game vs Crystal Palace. Then the infamous victory against Brighton where Brighton actually created chances for fun. Spurs game. Then came Newcastle who were not short of chances, until 3 late goals masked this shaky game with impressive 4-1 scoreline. Then between the better games defensively against Chelsea, Man City, West Brom... we had games like vs Southampton, West Ham, Everton, Sheffield United... where despite the good result, we couldn't control the game that we needed comeback, or almost letting opposition get all over us. I am talking about first half of last season, so you can easily see the general picture.

The result last season masked over our performance. We just no longer getting away as much this season, and it catching up to us. That's what people have been worrying even before this season start.

Dirty Schwein said:

Carragher made a good point that if you're going to make Ole, an inexperienced candidate, the manager of United, then you need to surround him with highly experienced coaches like Carlos Queiros.

He is surrounded by people like Carrick and Fletcher who have never done this at a high level, or any level for that matter. The lot of them are learning on the job.

When this point was presented to Neville, he started banging on about Phelan, who despite rocking 80s hot pants in the summer, doesn't appear to do much.

Neville also said coaching doesn't make a difference.

I think I agree with Carragher here massively.

In my industry, if there is an inexperienced director for a movie, you can bet your ass the camera/sound/production etc all will have really experienced heads to help said director...

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Carragher is generally correct about his assessment of us. But let's face it, Ole isn't leading us to titles. He can sign Messi and rob Klopp of his assistant but as much as people skirt around the issue it's clear as day that he must be sacked. But the point that Ole should have surrounded himself by better coaches is true.

Amadaeus said:

We played bad last season. If you read the post of poster that actual understood football like myself.

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Do you stand in front of the mirror every morning telling yourself how smart and good looking you are?

We’re noticeably worse this season. We at least had periods where we were brilliant last season, albeit brief periods. Less so now, I can’t remember us clicking with the same kind of interplay as much this season.

Bebestation said:

Ronaldo is our main goalscorer than Bruno Fernandes.

Ronaldo as our main player cannot link the other players in the team together.

Ronaldo as a top top goalscorer in the Premier league is just a poacher now that almost has the rest of the team playing a very basic Stoke like level of football.

As much as people hate to admit it - just as much as the crosses may be crap to him, the runs he make are not as good any more. His first touches can be lack lustre. He can make mistakes with bad shots that go wide or straight in to the opposition knee caps. His passes are meh.

Bruno Fernandes was not like that in similar positions- he was deadly. Scoring goals if not making passes that would lead to goals. If not make a run that would cause a penalty that he would take.

None of this is seen anymore.

No one blames Ronaldo.

It is Ole's fault- it's His lack of tactics that gets a 36 year old as the main man of a title competing side.

A juventus side that finished 5th or whatever and where we finish is really not that different. We were a team that had players that were playing individually but it felt like we had alot of them back in last season - Bruno Fernandes, Greenwood, Shaw, Cavani, Rashford, Pogba etc; now it seems we are only really as good as our ability to get the ball to Ronaldo and Ronaldo to put the ball in the net. The tactics have gotten even more basic.

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Noone blames Ronaldo but you stated Ronaldo in nearly all of your sentences as the main reason.

Seriously, you're not the only one as I see. Blaming Ronaldo for all of this is bonkers.

ti vu said:

Not really.

We were picked apart in our opening game vs Crystal Palace. Then the infamous victory against Brighton where Brighton actually created chances for fun. Spurs game. Then came Newcastle who were not short of chances, until 3 late goals masked this shaky game with impressive 4-1 scoreline. Then between the better games defensively against Chelsea, Man City, West Brom... we had games like vs Southampton, West Ham, Everton, Sheffield United... where despite the good result, we couldn't control the game that we needed comeback, or almost letting opposition get all over us. I am talking about first half of last season, so you can easily see the general picture.

The result last season masked over our performance. We just no longer getting away as much this season, and it catching up to us. That's what people have been worrying even before this season start.

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Yep. Most of us saw it coming.

Bearded One said:

As bad as it was would you compare it to the way things are panning now?

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yes, just remove the luck we had last season.

Ronaldo isn't the problem it's a manager who has no clue how to use him. If he had less of a profile and wasn't the legendary figure he was he'd have been benched with Sancho and VDB. Not because they're all not exceptional players.

Bebestation said:

Ronaldo is our main goalscorer than Bruno Fernandes.

Ronaldo as our main player cannot link the other players in the team together.

Ronaldo as a top top goalscorer in the Premier league is just a poacher now that almost has the rest of the team playing a very basic Stoke like level of football.

As much as people hate to admit it - just as much as the crosses may be crap to him, the runs he make are not as good any more. His first touches can be lack lustre. He can make mistakes with bad shots that go wide or straight in to the opposition knee caps. His passes are meh.

Bruno Fernandes was not like that in similar positions- he was deadly. Scoring goals if not making passes that would lead to goals. If not make a run that would cause a penalty that he would take.

None of this is seen anymore.

No one blames Ronaldo.

It is Ole's fault- it's His lack of tactics that gets a 36 year old as the main man of a title competing side.

A juventus side that finished 5th or whatever and where we finish is really not that different. We were a team that had players that were playing individually but it felt like we had alot of them back in last season - Bruno Fernandes, Greenwood, Shaw, Cavani, Rashford, Pogba etc; now it seems we are only really as good as our ability to get the ball to Ronaldo and Ronaldo to put the ball in the net. The tactics have gotten even more basic.

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Imo this is pretty bang on. But beware his fans will jump on you.

It's not just offensively but defensively as well. Him not pressing and focus only on sniffing a goal cause our other forwards to be much more selfish than previously (Greenwood) and lazier. Which leads to the tremendous pressure on our poor midfield. They're often badly overnumbbered and overun. Which in turn leads to our defense got badly overrun too and always out of shape. Teams carve us apart with ease. If one match, two matches it maybe a bad day. But every match? It's a fecking system and tactical issue.

Tbh now whenever I see Ronaldo in the lineup I always expect an offensively disjointed, clueless and defensively tragic performance. A shitshow. And tbf I've not been disappointed much recently.

You'd get the feeling we pressed as hell last season and now suddenly with Ronaldo coming in it all collapsed..

Real Name said:

Do you stand in front of the mirror every morning telling yourself how smart and good looking you are?

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Sometimes. It feels good to be right. When you have many doubters abusing you about an unpopular opinion, which ended up being popular, it feels good. So, let me have my moment. Even though, there is a small chance Ole can turn this around, I feel confident enough to see the inevitable coming. If Ole does turn it around, then I guess, I will be wrong. He has the players, but it seems like he got to many world class players now. The team seemed more balanced when we could blend in some youth, rather than have like 5 £60m+ player warming the bench

When teams have weaknesses they don't show up all the time. Teams with weak defences get the odd clean sheet. Teams with goal shy attacks have the odd spell where they look ok. But when a team's form starts to drop - which can happen for many reasons but happens to most teams at some point - those weaknesses end up being the main problems.

At United, we've had the same weaknesses all along under Ole. The only difference is that they haven't usually shown up at once in the same spell. This time though, everything that's bad about Ole's United has shown up at once. No structure or plan. No press and a weaknesses to other teams pressing. No controlled possession. Weak defending.

Some of these will get a bit better eventually and we'll come out of this run of form then. But I see no reason to think that these deficiencies will go away entirely. Whenever any of them show up again, we'll drop points. And if they all show up again at once we'll have another terrible spell like this.

Strelok said:

Imo this is pretty bang on. But beware his fans will jump on you.

It's not just offensively but defensively as well. Him not pressing and focus only on sniffing a goal cause our other forwards to be much more selfish than previously (Greenwood) and lazier. Which leads to the tremendous pressure on our poor midfield. They're often badly overnumbbered and overun. Which in turn leads to our defense got badly overrun too and always out of shape. Teams carve us apart with ease. If one match, two matches it maybe a bad day. But every match? It's a fecking system and tactical issue.

Tbh now whenever I see Ronaldo in the lineup I always expect an offensively disjointed, clueless and defensively tragic performance. A shitshow. And tbf I've not been disappointed much recently.

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I mean just from his lack of pressing surely its obvious - his ability to make runs behinds the defence isn't there anymore. Do you really see him making a Lindelof pass to Rashford run? Sure it's unfair - but old is old and a tree is a tree.

The players who did this last season were Rashford and Greenwood. Bruno used to make those runs too or cavani if not they would be interlinking with each other.

It doesn't happen with Ronaldo. There is a lack of runs and interlinking ability and our football as gone to very basic crossing to Ronaldo or as you say; players like Rashford or Greenwood doing their own thing. Do you remember yesterday when Rashford went on that very good run and took all the Liverpool players out at the corner line? Where was Ronaldo? I think he was still ball watching.

Ronaldo at his peak needed Rooney and Tevez when playing out wide, Benzema, Dybala- why oh why would he suddenly he be bossing it by himself centrally with two inverted forwards?

In the Ronaldo thread - someone was complaining about this. That Rashford and Greenwood does not get the best out of Ronaldo and that we need to use more traditional wingers or striker partners to get the best out of Ronaldo. This is 100% accurate.

However, are we really going to get the best out of a 36 year old player as our main tactic and drop Rashford and Greenwood because they don't get the best out of him it highlights the problem. Just as much as Rashford and Greenwood does not get the best out of Ronaldo, Ronaldo does not get the best out of players like Rashford, Greenwood or I'd say an inverted forward version of Sancho or Martial. Players like Cavani and Bruno Fernandes playing further up the pitch and closer to the goal was the more balanced option.

Now what do you see our main attacker from last season doing most of the time? Trying to whip in a cross to Ronaldo alot of the time like we a bloody Stoke.

I'm telling you that we were in control of the match vs Everton when we played Cavani. Soon as he was gone for Ronaldo - we lost all of our control in the match. The ability to hold on to the ball. The ability to interlink. The ability to press.

People just value his ability to put the ball in the net though.