Why are Man United playing worse than last season?

Strelok

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I mean just from his lack of pressing surely its obvious - his ability to make runs behinds the defence isn't there anymore.

The players who did this last season were Rashford and Greenwood. Bruno used to make those runs too or cavani if not they would be interlinking with each other.

It doesn't happen with Ronaldo. There is a lack of runs and interlinking ability and our football as gone to very basic crossing to Ronaldo or as you say; players like Rashford or Greenwood doing their own thing. Do you remember yesterday when Rashford went on that very good run and took all the Liverpool players out at the corner line? Where was Ronaldo? Do you

Ronaldo at his peak needed Rooney and Tevez when playing out wide, Benzema, Dybala- why oh why would he suddenly he be bossing it by himself centrally with two inverted forwards?

In the Ronaldo thread - someone was complaining about this. That Rashford and Greenwood does not get the best out of Ronaldo and that we need to use more traditional wingers or striker partners. This is 100% accurate.

However, are we really going to get the best out of a 36 year old player as our main tactic and drop Rashford and Greenwood because they don't get the best out of him :confused: it highlights the problem. Just as much as Rashford and Greenwood does not get the best out of Ronaldo, Ronaldo does not get the best out of players like Rashford, Greenwood or I'd I'd say an inverted forward version of Sancho or Martial. Players like Cavani and Bruno Fernandes playing further up the pitch and closer to the goal was the more balanced option.

Now what do you see our main attacker from last season doing most of the time? Trying to whip in a cross to Ronaldo alot of the time like we a bloody Stoke.
Yeah I'd agree with you. I've noticed the Bruno problem as well. He has stopped making runs into the opponent's final third recently and started to play deeper and wider to provide for Ronaldo and help our midfield. And you're right Ronaldo is not even a proper #9, never been. He's always required a proper #9 to play along.

I admire Ronaldo a lot. His career, his mentality, what he's done for us before moving to Madrid. But it's true that he's making every players around him much worse than their usual. He may score a goal here and there but I don't think it's enough for the problems he created.
 
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Mate what fecking balance did we have before signing him? Christ we'd be even worse without him so far, unless you lot are really clamoring for Martial again. Cavani has been out for half of the season already and in reality he and Greenwood were just bailing us out in the spring we hardly had any balance.
He spends his entire time on this forum jerking off Messi and knocking Ronaldo, so of course it’s all Ronaldo’s fault :lol:
 

Bebestation

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Yeah I'd agree with you. I've noticed the Bruno problem as well. He has stopped making runs into the opponent's final third recently and started to play deeper and wider to provide for Ronaldo and help our midfield. And you're right Ronaldo is not even a proper #9, never been. He's always required a proper #9 to play along.

I admire Ronaldo a lot. His career, his mentality, what he's done for us before moving to Madrid. But it's true that he's making every players around him much worse than their usual. He may score a goal here and there but I don't think it's enough for the problems he created.
Same. He is my Goat and I don't like saying stuff about him but I have to because ultimately its effecting my team.

It became the most obvious in that Everton game. I'm telling you that we were in control of the match vs Everton when we played Cavani. Soon as he was gone for Ronaldo - we lost all of our control in the match. The ability to hold on to the ball. The ability to interlink. The ability to press. All within 5 minutes of him coming on. The opposition goal was not his fault, but it ultimately changed the way we could play.

Then what happened? People said it was the lack of Ronaldo that led us to not scoring enough goals from the start that made us lose the game and that he should not be dropped. I think Ole might have known what he was doing by dropping him but then has to play him now due to pressure from everywhere from fans and legends.

People just value his ability to put the ball in the net (maybe and his leadership) at the moment when there is more to football than that.
 

Strelok

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Same. He is my Goat and I don't like saying stuff about him but I have to because ultimately its effecting my team.

It became the most obvious in that Everton game. I'm telling you that we were in control of the match vs Everton when we played Cavani. Soon as he was gone for Ronaldo - we lost all of our control in the match. The ability to hold on to the ball. The ability to interlink. The ability to press. All within 5 minutes of him coming on. The opposition goal was not his fault, but it ultimately changed the way we could play.

Then what happened? People said it was the lack of Ronaldo that led us to not scoring enough goals from the start that made us lose the game and that he should not be dropped. I think Ole might have known what he was doing by dropping him but then has to play him now due to pressure from everywhere from fans and legends.

People just value his ability to put the ball in the net (maybe and his leadership) at the moment when there is more to football than that.
Yeah the Everton game. That's true.

This is an unfortunate situation for everyone involved. That's why I've been saying I want Zidane. He probably knows how to and can handle this. Ronaldo's status and influence is simply too big for Ole I think.
 

Lentwood

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Its incredibly obvious why. The manager spoke during the summer about how we are going to play higher and more aggressive this season. The theory being that the addition of Varane would allow us to push up the pitch.

The problem with this, as all of the pundits in the Sky Sports studio yesterday pointed out, is that a high-line requires a high-press to be successful, and we lack the personnel to pull this off. Pogba, Greenwood, Rashford, Ronaldo and Sancho are just not natural pressers.

Now, we can criticise the two CMs, but as Scholes said during the week, he would struggle in this team. Our wide forwards offer them no assistance and neither does our forward or AM. Therefore, they are pulled from side-to-side, chasing shadows at times.

Likewise, its easy to criticise Maguire and the rest of the back four and they have started the season shakily. However, if you take ANY four defenders, ask them to play on the halfway line and don't press the ball, you are in for big, big trouble.

Good amatuer players can pretty much put the ball where they want it when they have time and space. I have played with lads who skirted around lower league football in their late teens/early 20s and if you don't hurry them, they can land the ball on an eggcup from 40 yards.

Now imagine what a world class player can do, picking passes for other world class players to run onto. We are on an absolute hiding to nothing because we are so, so open. You just cannot play football that way. It's not about having pace at the back, its about what you forwards and midfielders do to prevent the opposition passing through you.

We have to find another way of playing. Just because City and Liverpool adopt a high-press, doesn't mean we have to. At the moment, we're playing football in just about the most unsuitable way possible, given the strengths/weaknesses of our players, and I feel its because Ole doesn't have any ideas beyond "copy City" in his locker
 

amolbhatia50k

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Its incredibly obvious why. The manager spoke during the summer about how we are going to play higher and more aggressive this season. The theory being that the addition of Varane would allow us to push up the pitch.

The problem with this, as all of the pundits in the Sky Sports studio yesterday pointed out, is that a high-line requires a high-press to be successful, and we lack the personnel to pull this off. Pogba, Greenwood, Rashford, Ronaldo and Sancho are just not natural pressers.

Now, we can criticise the two CMs, but as Scholes said during the week, he would struggle in this team. Our wide forwards offer them no assistance and neither does our forward or AM. Therefore, they are pulled from side-to-side, chasing shadows at times.

Likewise, its easy to criticise Maguire and the rest of the back four and they have started the season shakily. However, if you take ANY four defenders, ask them to play on the halfway line and don't press the ball, you are in for big, big trouble.

Good amatuer players can pretty much put the ball where they want it when they have time and space. I have played with lads who skirted around lower league football in their late teens/early 20s and if you don't hurry them, they can land the ball on an eggcup from 40 yards.

Now imagine what a world class player can do, picking passes for other world class players to run onto. We are on an absolute hiding to nothing because we are so, so open. You just cannot play football that way. It's not about having pace at the back, its about what you forwards and midfielders do to prevent the opposition passing through you.

We have to find another way of playing. Just because City and Liverpool adopt a high-press, doesn't mean we have to. At the moment, we're playing football in just about the most unsuitable way possible, given the strengths/weaknesses of our players, and I feel its because Ole doesn't have any ideas beyond "copy City" in his locker
Feels like "progressive" football is an afterthought. We sign Maguire and AWB two years back who are slow and poor on the ball respectively. If you really plan to play a certain, it isn't like a switch you flick on and off, that decision made 2 years back to sign those players should have been done keeping this switch in mind, if it was actually intended all along. Besides, I have no faith in Ole to actually implement progressive attacking football. You don't play functional cautious football for 3 years and then suddently switch to expansive stuff. It would be really bizarre. But this is what happens when you hand someone who isn't a top manager, top manager money.
 

AFC NimbleThumb

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Feels like "progressive" football is an afterthought. We sign Maguire and AWB two years back who are slow and poor on the ball respectively. If you really plan to play a certain, it isn't like a switch you flick on and off, that decision made 2 years back to sign those players should have been done keeping this switch in mind, if it was actually intended all along. Besides, I have no faith in Ole to actually implement progressive attacking football. You don't play functional cautious football for 3 years and then suddently switch to expansive stuff. It would be really bizarre. But this is what happens when you hand someone who isn't a top manager, top manager money.
But, but ‘he’s built a great squad’. . .
 

amolbhatia50k

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But, but ‘he’s built a great squad’. . .
He has signed some good names, but the problem is that people have forgotten what a TEAM is. We signed Varane for a high back line, Maguire for a back 3, AWB for Stoke City football, James for counter attacking footy, Ronaldo for counter attack football/no press, and Sancho for possession football and VDB for cheerleading.
 

AFC NimbleThumb

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He has signed some good names, but the problem is that people have forgotten what a TEAM is. We signed Varane for a high back line, Maguire for a back 3, AWB for Stoke City football, James for counter attacking footy, Ronaldo for counter attack football/no press, and Sancho for possession football and VDB for cheerleading.
But, but ‘progress’. . .
 

LoneStar

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Some of our starters have dropped off in form (Maguire, Shaw, Bruno).

McTominay and Fred were solid but uninspiring last season, but this season they've looked bad.

The addition of Ronaldo and Sancho, and the form of Greenwood has forced Ole to change tactics and system to accomodate them. But he seems to be clueless there.

And of course, our rivals have taken a step up, which makes us look even worse in comparison. This is also the season where there is a pressure on the team to deliver something, and we already seem to be crumbling.
 
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Last season we were ranging on average to good. Performance vs PSG away for example. This season has been a utter shambles.
 

VanDeBank

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Shaw Maguire McTominay are in terrible form and Ole keeps picking them.

Rashford and Greenwood don't track back. Ronaldo doesn't press (he only pressed twice in the premier league this season before last game). He's telling his players it's okay to underperform, he keeps picking them anyway.

Half of the squad he's built is suited to a high line and press, the other half towards playing on the break. Ole is too much of a nice guy ('brilliant man manager') to pick one and drop players accordingly.
 

Lentwood

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But, but ‘he’s built a great squad’. . .
There's nothing wrong with the players necessarily, they just need to be set up in a manner which suits them.

Not many clubs have the luxury of a team like Man City, whereby they can buy 23 players in a short space of time to ensure every piece of the puzzle is perfect. Good football management is about going "what do I have and how can I use it?"
 

Bobcat

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We were not this bad. We had some great performances last season against Chelsea, Liverpool and City and some stinkers. We weren't this bad. Not even close . What has been happening since Young Boys game has been worst stretch ever.
Agreed. We had bad games last year, but never such a sustained run of poor. First full season we had trouble scoring before Bruno, but we at least showed some fight in most games.

Players have looked like they have lost all faith
 

L_O_S_T

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In simple words, the coaching team has hit a ceiling and cannot meet with the increasing ambition and expectation of the players and the fans. Mega signings this season also meant that the coaching staff could no longer hide behind the excuse of players being not good enough, and are beginning to be exposed for their naivety. Players also became overconfident and fell into the trap thinking they were able to go toe to toe with the top teams hence they stopped working hard and forgot about getting the basics right and playing as a team.

In the previous seasons, the team has had more of an underdog tag, hence the expectation was not as high. The team was setup conservatively or pragmatically in most games, and relying on some good moments to get through games and at other times just grinding out points. We were being fed this very high level talk and ideas about being on front foot, playing positively, bringing the game to opposition. But on the pitch it seem there was hardly any evolution in the pattern of play. It always appeared that the team was just eleven players on the pitch, grinding it out, and when it clicked, we played beautifully, but when it didnt, we crashed hard because there was nothing to fall back upon, no backup system, no foundations in place

The Europa league final was a very big red flag to me, it plainly showed there were serious deficiencies on the ability of OGS and the coaching team. It was mismanaged from start to finish, everyone who watched the game could plainly see what was going to happen, everyone, except for the coaching staff. But somehow after the devastating loss, the narrative that came out was that the team was almost good enough to win big things and that individually we needed few more big signings was to remedy that.

Fast forward to this season, the mega signings were made in what was supposed to be one of the best transfer windows in a long time. Varane, Sancho, Ronaldo, the team was supposed be complete now. And I think both the coaches and players began to believe their own hype and get carried away. But on the pitch the gameplan was still the same with little or no improvements. The same deficiencies are exposed time and time again and the coaches don't seem to be able to find or try any remedies. Players are losing confidence and the very fragile foundations to begin with are starting to crumble fast.

It's sad to say that even the most casual fans can tell that the team is playing without any proper direction, and even the most average football enthusiast could probably point out the tactical mistakes being made by OGS. Frankly it's bordering on insane and embarrassing at the same time.
 
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KikiDaKats

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We were tactically gutted by Liverpool and that's it. Like most teams have been doing this season without quality of Liverpool, Klopp played a CM of very mobile players knowing our forwards and Bruno are not discipline enough to counter it.
So, my conclusion is
1. Balance - Bruno should be taken out of that AM role and played out wide for a more discipline player. Its not always about goals. If we are lucky enough to have an attacking midfielder that is discipline it will be a blessing or else sacrifice his goals or creativity/lose passes for control of games.
2. The players are very selfish and have no heart. It's all about their individual egos and how they look. It's not as if they've achieved much with us yet. I personally don't care for so called stars, anyway. I know we call for defensive effort from attackers but it's also an acquired ability that includes its own skillset. Seen our players trying to fool us by running to show for effort whilst actually they dont want to defend or put a tackle in because they only care for the attacking side because they only care for their own attacking stats.
3. The fans. Yes the fans, us. We want to hound nobodies like Dan James gone because he does not post great attacking numbers but ignore the defensive work he puts in to protect the layer behind him. No body covers that much ground in football and has the required composure to cause damage going forward. We can't have it both ways because Ronaldo, Greenwood, Rashford, Bruno, Sancho and Martial are all phenomenal going forward but all liabilities defensively. Whilst your Lingard, Cavani:keano::keano:, Pogba and VDB won't give you their attacking stats but give something different in those positions.
3. Ole, I don't think he is tactically inept. Watching his in game responses I believe he is as good as anyone out their bar Pep. The guy just has no balls to make the tough decisions or go up against the marketing department. All these so called big name players cannot play at the same time. Amongst those so-called class players a battler has to be in there. Does he have the guts to go against the fans or will just revert to type and marginalise Lingard, Pogba, VDB and Cavani.
4. Poor owners. Not of the green and gold opinion. You don't own a hotel and let turn to a halfway house. They are too scared of backlash to a point of thinking throwing unnecessary money into the club will sort on field issues out. You don't buy popularity, You earn it by doing the right things as an owner. Maybe it works for most fans but it's not worked since Sir Alex left. Time to rethink their hands off attitude.
 

Highfather_24

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We have too many passengers(defensively) in this team, its unbalanced. Adding Ronaldo and removing Cavani, made it worse. Having a 4-2-4 formation where the four attackers dont track back is suicide.

We need to play a 4-3-3 to add more bodies in the midfield, and play with 1 less attacker. Its often the opposing fullbacks causing the most damage, so we have to setup to make sure we always track the runners. A team like this is balanced imo :

-------------------DDG
AWB--Varane--Maguire--Shaw
------------------Matic
-----------Bruno-----Fred
----Cavani--Ronaldo--Rashford

We can also play Lingard and Sancho to add more running and creativity in the attack when required. VdB and McT can also play as #8s. Bruno would need to change his game a bit, sacrifice his freedom for the team, but he can do it.
 

Nick7

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Not really.

We were picked apart in our opening game vs Crystal Palace. Then the infamous victory against Brighton where Brighton actually created chances for fun. Spurs game. Then came Newcastle who were not short of chances, until 3 late goals masked this shaky game with impressive 4-1 scoreline. Then between the better games defensively against Chelsea, Man City, West Brom... we had games like vs Southampton, West Ham, Everton, Sheffield United... where despite the good result, we couldn't control the game that we needed comeback, or almost letting opposition get all over us. I am talking about first half of last season, so you can easily see the general picture.

The result last season masked over our performance. We just no longer getting away as much this season, and it catching up to us. That's what people have been worrying even before this season start.
Yep, this is a good post.
 

sp_107

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My happy dream / Fantasy is Ole lifting champions league for us but after reading lot of cafe posts I am coming to conclusion that we might need an upgrade on our current manager/coaching setup
 

Real Name

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3. Ole, I don't think he is tactically inept. Watching his in game responses I believe he is as good as anyone out their bar Pep. The guy just has no balls to make the tough decisions or go up against the marketing department. All these so called big name players cannot play at the same time. Amongst those so-called class players a battler has to be in there. Does he have the guts to go against the fans or will just revert to type and marginalise Lingard, Pogba, VDB and Cavani.
4. Poor owners. Not of the green and gold opinion. You don't own a hotel and let turn to a halfway house. They are too scared of backlash to a point of thinking throwing unnecessary money into the club will sort on field issues out. You don't buy popularity, You earn it by doing the right things as an owner. Maybe it works for most fans but it's not worked since Sir Alex left. Time to rethink their hands off attitude.
I dont want to get into this Ole being tactically good as anyone bar Pep stuff. Cause there's no point.
But he fields a team in which big name players play all the time and if he cant make a decision who plays or who doesnt and bench underperforming players then he's a weak manager.
Also about the fans, club doesnt sell players based on who's been hounded of by the fans supposedly.
 

sp_107

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if one or 2 players had a bad game then we can point fingers at players but when whole team having bad game after game then i clearly look into coaching setup..

Looks like that Ramsey guy is not that great
 

KikiDaKats

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I dont want to get into this Ole being tactically good as anyone bar Pep stuff. Cause there's no point.
But he fields a team in which big name players play all the time and if he cant make a decision who plays or who doesnt and bench underperforming players then he's a weak manager.
Also about the fans, club doesnt sell players based on who's been hounded of by the fans supposedly.
Oh I can't back that good tactical ability talk up.
Agree with your second point.
Third point in theory yes but in reality, managers and players are human. You believe fans can't influence the thinking of a manager under pressure. It takes a Lingard to stay in club where fans always believe your selection is an error in judgement by the manager.
 

Bearded One

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People are blaming CR7 but how come he was able to perform at Real Madrid and the whole team was better for it?

Could it be that the gaffer doesn’t know how to bring to best out of him?
 

Ixion

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I don't think Ronaldo is to blame but you have to accommodate him. I said a few weeks ago I wasn't sure Greenwood should be starting as he offers nothing defensively and was shot down why we'd have our best finisher helping out in defense but if you've got Ronaldo up there you can't surround him with other Ronaldos. The front 4 can't only care about attacking when we've got two average DMs behind them.
 

buckooo1978

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its tactics and players

In terms of players it's easy to see a complete drop in performance level from our defenders - Maguire in particular

I've never seen a United side so open in my life. We've had a de facto 4-2-4 formation and teams like Wolves, Young Boys and Everton and West Ham have opened us with ease.

there's a real lack of workrate with the team and I expected Greenwood and Rashford to be defending a lot more. The balance of the team is completely wrong. Players like Dan James lacked quality but their workrate and defensive stuff was important.

Next few games if he's in charge Ole should be playing a more defensive approach - I could not believe that he set up in such a way that Liverpool were able to break on us so easily
 

MasterCode

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Its incredibly obvious why. The manager spoke during the summer about how we are going to play higher and more aggressive this season. The theory being that the addition of Varane would allow us to push up the pitch.

The problem with this, as all of the pundits in the Sky Sports studio yesterday pointed out, is that a high-line requires a high-press to be successful, and we lack the personnel to pull this off. Pogba, Greenwood, Rashford, Ronaldo and Sancho are just not natural pressers.

Now, we can criticise the two CMs, but as Scholes said during the week, he would struggle in this team. Our wide forwards offer them no assistance and neither does our forward or AM. Therefore, they are pulled from side-to-side, chasing shadows at times.

Likewise, its easy to criticise Maguire and the rest of the back four and they have started the season shakily. However, if you take ANY four defenders, ask them to play on the halfway line and don't press the ball, you are in for big, big trouble.

Good amatuer players can pretty much put the ball where they want it when they have time and space. I have played with lads who skirted around lower league football in their late teens/early 20s and if you don't hurry them, they can land the ball on an eggcup from 40 yards.

Now imagine what a world class player can do, picking passes for other world class players to run onto. We are on an absolute hiding to nothing because we are so, so open. You just cannot play football that way. It's not about having pace at the back, its about what you forwards and midfielders do to prevent the opposition passing through you.

We have to find another way of playing. Just because City and Liverpool adopt a high-press, doesn't mean we have to. At the moment, we're playing football in just about the most unsuitable way possible, given the strengths/weaknesses of our players, and I feel its because Ole doesn't have any ideas beyond "copy City" in his locker
I agree somewhat, but I watched Pochettinio defeat Pep with Messi Mbappe Neymar who aren't renowned pressers.

With a 5ft 5 Italian in Verratti pivoting the team in the 6 and the only two runners in the team being Gana and Herrera. Benefit is they had cbs who could defend 1v1 and read situations.

We can try and overcomplicate it as much as we want. But its obviously staring us in the face - we got fleeced for 80ms. We were down in FIVE minutes to Maguires error, he is at fault for the last TEN goals. Yes theres loads wrong with tactics, so much wrong with coaching but the answer to the OP is simple.

Our defense cant carry our attack because they are not good enough!
 

Lentwood

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I agree somewhat, but I watched Pochettinio defeat Pep with Messi Mbappe Neymar who aren't renowned pressers.

With a 5ft 5 Italian in Verratti pivoting the team in the 6 and the only two runners in the team being Gana and Herrera. Benefit is they had cbs who could defend 1v1 and read situations.

We can try and overcomplicate it as much as we want. But its obviously staring us in the face - we got fleeced for 80ms. We were down in FIVE minutes to Maguires error, he is at fault for the last TEN goals. Yes theres loads wrong with tactics, so much wrong with coaching but the answer to the OP is simple.

Our defense cant carry our attack because they are not good enough!
I disagree. The first goal is a prime example. It's not Maguire's error, it's a consequence of nobody in the team having a clue how we are meant to be defending and/or what shape we are meant to be in.

Greenwood should never have pressed. AWB should never have pressed. This drags Lindelof into the RB position, which drags Maguire into the RCB position and Shaw into the LCB position. It's all very easy then to criticise the back four, but this is a defensive error made first and foremost by Greenwood, who should never abandon his spot on the wing.

This is what managers mean when they say 'we defend as a team' or 'we defend from the front'. It's not a soundbite and it doesn't mean 'our attackers charge about like madmen'. What it means is, we HAVE to defend from the the front, otherwise teams will pick passes between the lines and our defence will be exposed.

Just imagine, imagine what it must be like playing as a defender in this Manchester United team right now. Every single opposition attack leaves them 3 vs 3 or 2 vs 2, or dragged across the pitch to put out fires. Nobody could defend like that. Prime Ferdinand and Vidic couldn't defend like that. Case in point, three times Champions League winner and WC winner Raphael Varane can't defend like that either, as we have seen in the few games he has played this season.

The error Ole is making is two-fold. Firstly, our players, as you point of with PSGs forwards, are not really suited to pressing. So it's the wrong tactic to adopt in the first-place. Secondly, this is compounded by our players not having a clue HOW to press. Where are the triggers? Who is orchestrating the press? Who should press and when? Which opposition players should be pressed?

I could coach a team to press at a basic level, it's not hard. You identify which of your players will lead the press in different areas of the pitch. You identify which of the opposition defenders/midfielders you CAN press (usually whichever is the weakest on the ball or whomever is responsible for receiving the ball most often in midfield from the defenders). You work on pressing triggers i.e. the ball going into a player who is weak on the ball, or a pass that forces a player to check or go backwards. You then work on who gives the signal, what that signal is and how the other players should respond to this trigger/signal. Also, very often, the player LEADING the press isn't actually the one who is going to make the tackle/interception. The player leading the press is responsible for forcing the opponent into a trap. Show them a glimpse of a passing channel, make the only available pass a high-risk one and tempt them to take it, knowing your teammates are lying in wait to close that pass at the last second and steal the ball. It's not rocket science at all, it just needs loads and loads of practice and a well-orchestrated team acting in harmony. If ONE player doesn't do their job, the opposition get out easily.

What I can't do, and where you need a really good coach, is to work out what happens when the press is bypassed. Pep has spent years (and billions) trying to work this out. How can we cover the players who are attempting the press, without leaving huge gaps? We have seen previously how Bayern Munich and Barcelona have tucked the full backs into central areas, almost filling in for the pivots, so there aren't gaps in the central areas. This requires elite coaching, skill and hundreds of hours of practice. Does it look like we have put 'hundreds of hours of practice' into our press?

That press yesterday was an example of what you DON'T do. No trigger, not co-ordinated, no pressure on the opponent with the ball, multiple passes available to the player being pressed and probably Liverpool's best passer of the ball in the backline. Suicidal. As it proved. People confuse 'the press' with just running about. Again, suicide. You will be out on your feet by HT doing that and probably being played off the park as well
 
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Noc-Z

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Shaw looks bad - his position and discipline defensively are terrible at the moment, he didn't look this bad before. Maguire looks out of his depth...exhausted or lacking confidence. Wan-Bissaka still offers little offensively. Pogba doesn't fit anywhere in the team, and offers little anyway. Our first choice of Fred and McT are nowhere near good enough and being exposed more and more now. We have Ronaldo up-front who, to get the best out of needs creative wingers around him. We aren't playing creative wingers, we are playing wide forwards so Ronaldo won't be fed, Rashford and Greenwood don't put crosses in they are more likely to cut in and shoot. Bruno is frustrating and wasteful. He is drifting all over the attacking areas and needs to be more disciplined and slot back into midfield. We have signed Van de Beek and Sancho - talented players who Ole has no plan for, they are sat on the bench. How can any of this be good for morale. The players don't play as if they want to keep Ole in his job but they are probably not being given clear instructions and tactics because Ole appears to have no plan and his coaching team seem inept. The players may be disillusioned with all of this and realising Ole can't make this any better, no matter how much he spends and that the club are not decisive enough to sack Ole and Ole won't quit. Was it really that much better last year, or were we just luckier?
 

bosnian_red

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Multiple reasons.
  • First 2 years with Ole we played a cautious style and attacked on the counter with star players. Very inconsistent but it worked enough to get top 4 twice.
  • Increased expectations and increased backing meant Ole had to be more progressive. He doesn't know how to do it so it's exposing us as he can't coach anything differently.
  • Increased expectation from players as a result of new players mean we now expect to be challenging for the title and playing like it. It's a lot more difficult to do and a lot more fragile to handle, and leads to much more dramatic collapses (confidence has a huge role in football)
  • Disappointment post Europa League final defeat probably exists in the squad and coaching staff where they feel last season was ultimately a failure anyway (which of course it was, trophyless after getting knocked out of the group stage of the CL), and so the confidence people had in Ole was already shaky
Once a slide starts happening like this, it's pretty much impossible to stop unless we change managers
 

RazorOz

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We've lost any identity we had, and we didn't have much to begin with, but we at least normally set out as a counter attacking team. Now Solskjaer clearly has no idea what his best XI is, or how to utilise all the players in the squad as it has become very unbalanced. It has led to the current concept of just putting 11 individuals out there hoping it gets a result, there's no team identity in our displays, so even though individually we are better, as a team it adds up to less.

This whole idea of 4-2-4 where the front 4 barely track back is completely laughable that we thought this would ever work against Liverpool and not see us getting totally destroyed. You can't carry 4 passengers vs a top side, you're just asking for trouble.

It feels almost certain at this stage we should be playing 3 in midfield, I feel like a better manager would come in and play van de Beek and Pogba alongside 1 DM, with a front 3 where the wide players are expected to work much harder than they currently are. Where that would leave Bruno, who knows, but he could probably play deeper in a 3 man midfield too, atm he's often way too high up the pitch, he actually has legs and work rate, which we could do with deeper on the pitch. You'd have the wide spots being contested by Sancho/Rashford/Greenwood/Martial, and then the front spot with Ronaldo/Cavani. You feel like the team atm is basically being designed to accommodate as many of the latter players as possible, but it's not working, even if they're all capable of individual brilliance, collectively it's adding up to a very average side.
 

MasterCode

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I disagree. The first goal is a prime example. It's not Maguire's error, it's a consequence of nobody in the team having a clue how we are meant to be defending and/or what shape we are meant to be in.

Greenwood should never have pressed. AWB should never have pressed. This drags Lindelof into the RB position, which drags Maguire into the RCB position and Shaw into the LCB position. It's all very easy then to criticise the back four, but this is a defensive error made first and foremost by Greenwood, who should never abandon his spot on the wing.

This is what managers mean when they say 'we defend as a team' or 'we defend from the front'. It's not a soundbite and it doesn't mean 'our attackers charge about like madmen'. What it means is, we HAVE to defend from the the front, otherwise teams will pick passes between the lines and our defence will be exposed.

Just imagine, imagine what it must be like playing as a defender in this Manchester United team right now. Every single opposition attack leaves them 3 vs 3 or 2 vs 2, or dragged across the pitch to put out fires. Nobody could defend like that. Prime Ferdinand and Vidic couldn't defend like that. Case in point, three times Champions League winner and WC winner Raphael Varane can't defend like that either, as we have seen in the few games he has played this season.

The error Ole is making is two-fold. Firstly, our players, as you point of with PSGs forwards, are not really suited to pressing. So it's the wrong tactic to adopt in the first-place. Secondly, this is compounded by our players not having a clue HOW to press. Where are the triggers? Who is orchestrating the press? Who should press and when? Which opposition players should be pressed?

I could coach a team to press at a basic level, it's not hard. You identify which of your players will lead the press in different areas of the pitch. You identify which of the opposition defenders/midfielders you CAN press (usually whichever is the weakest on the ball or whomever is responsible for receiving the ball most often in midfield from the defenders). You work on pressing triggers i.e. the ball going into a player who is weak on the ball, or a pass that forces a player to check or go backwards. You then work on who gives the signal, what that signal is and how the other players should respond to this trigger/signal. Also, very often, the player LEADING the press isn't actually the one who is going to make the tackle/interception. The player leading the press is responsible for forcing the opponent into a trap. Show them a glimpse of a passing channel, make the only available pass a high-risk one and tempt them to take it, knowing your teammates are lying in wait to close that pass at the last second and steal the ball. It's not rocket science at all, it just needs loads and loads of practice and a well-orchestrated team acting in harmony. If ONE player doesn't do their job, the opposition get out easily.

What I can't do, and where you need a really good coach, is to work out what happens when the press is bypassed. Pep has spent years (and billions) trying to work this out. How can we cover the players who are attempting the press, without leaving huge gaps? We have seen previously how Bayern Munich and Barcelona have tucked the full backs into central areas, almost filling in for the pivots, so there aren't gaps in the central areas. This requires elite coaching, skill and hundreds of hours of practice. Does it look like we have put 'hundreds of hours of practice' into our press?

That press yesterday was an example of what you DON'T do. No trigger, not co-ordinated, no pressure on the opponent with the ball, multiple passes available to the player being pressed and probably Liverpool's best passer of the ball in the backline. Suicidal. As it proved. People confuse 'the press' with just running about. Again, suicide. You will be out on your feet by HT doing that and probably being played off the park as well
I know all of this, and since you know all of this. You will also know that bad presses being picked through is not unique to Manchester United.

There is no team in world football who get their pressing co-ordination right for 90mins of the game every match. Break downs happen for Liverpool, City all the top teams who press well. They have moments where it goes to shit.

Difference is they have a Dias, a Marquinhos, a Van Dijk, or even Mid Tier Cbs (forget the world beaters) as a safety measure to READ the situation and deal with it as effectively as possible and not look lost at sea.

I've seen Virgil drop off become last man and deal with threats when a press has failed. Heck I see Kompany with his limited athleticism towards the latter of his career READ situations and deal with them accordingly. (Pep was playing with a very high line even with Kompany)

As mentioned before yes there is lots wrong with tactics and coaching anybody with a brain can see that.

But I'm not going to absolve the players.

Particularly one who has TEN DIRECT errors that have led to goals in the last four games. Thats not a stat that I come up with. That just exists on any platform you want to look up.

I don't think Lindeloff is all that great but even he reads the game far better and has less errors.
I get it on paper we can poke holes in almost any tactic, and McKenna for all his "talent" 4-2-4 is the most daft thing I have ever come accross. But you still have to question, we look defensively better with Varane, Lindeloff doesn't have as many errors. There is one common denominator in multiple matches. Whether teams go 3 at the back, like Atalanta, or it's set pieces, or overloading the left hand side like Liverpool yesterday. Its one person always found wanting.

I've said it multiple times on this forum. We look as wide and open as Liverpool did last season. Only difference is we don't have makeshift CBs. Tell me how that happened?
 

Rampant Red Rodriguez

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Because Chelsea have an excellent ability to sack management but keep the squad improving and City spent £100m on making better what they were already strong in.
 

Lee565

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This is what you get when you have a manager that can't implement a style of play or players to play as a team and thinks he can cover this up by signing world class players will sort it out on the pitch individually.