Why are Man United playing worse than last season?

Gavinb33 · Oct 27, 2021

We should not have signed Ronaldo or Sancho this summer in my opinion.

We should have used the £80 odd million to address the glaring hole that is the midfield, going forward we scored the 2nd most league goals last season and with Rashford seemingly injured for 50% or more of it we seemed to do OK, with him back and Cavani having signed on again the need to refresh this area before the midfield didnt make sense then and most certainly not now and lets face it the Ronaldo transfer was done to save face they talk about long term plans etc but in reality there isnt one.

As for this season so far Ole wants to move to a more attacking formation without the nous to be able to pull it off as a result we are open for anyone to play against, whilst playing with 4 attackers is all well and good you need to have a plan of how and when to press, we seemingly do not have this.

When De Gea has the ball 90% of his kicks out to defenders are to the left hand side which means we are utterly predictable in the build up.

We have 0 control in midfield as we always try and play through balls with little thought about retaining possession, whilst this can work we gift possession back to the opposition to often and often in areas where they can launch counters.

Shaw in particular is either injured or believing the hype from the Shawberto shite from the summer, Liverpools goals largely came down his side and he was nowhere to be seen, there is no way Maguire should have played the last 3 games at all he is clearly off the pace and needed to come back to fitness before being put back in with his body shape and lack of mobility at the best of times.

Finally coaching if our coaching is to be whats published in press its hard to think this is not the reason we are in the shitter now, 1 man pressing, lack of cohesion, predictable build up play, lack of communication in defense, square pegs in round holes, unfit players in the team the list goes on and on

I wanted Ole to succeed so much i was willing to forgive some of his shortcomings in the early years but its plain to see he has taken this as far as he can and we need someone else to come in now.

Regulus Arcturus Black · Oct 27, 2021

RedStarUnited said:
Ronaldo this, Ronaldo that...

I feel like some of you have forgotten what it was like last season. Did we not set a record for the most come backs or something?

We have been conceding and going down in games for over a year. It was going to catch up to us eventually, and it has.

For a lot of those calling the doubters idiots last season, they obviously need someone to blame and as Sancho’s been benched, and Varane injured, Ronaldo’s the easy target who must have fecked up everything that was so brilliant last season.

edgecutter · Oct 27, 2021

The same issues are here that were present last season. Except our luck has run out. Anyone watching us last year could see we were poorly coached and relying on individual brilliance.

Roboc7 · Oct 27, 2021

This has been coming, not shocked in the slightest and is why Ole should have gone much earlier. There was nothing sustainable or substantial about anything that he was doing, we should have quit whilst we were ahead after last season. If we had done that we’d be better off and Ole would have been remembered better.

Football has been so disrupted last couple of years and that helped Ole. His style is very simple, a lack of time on the training ground, or for detailed tactics etc etc doesn’t impact him. This season it’s very different teams are probably better prepared physically and tactically, they’ve got managers and coaches who’ve benefitted from time but it’s more of a disadvantage for Ole as it just highlights how simplistic everything is.

I’ve never understood why anyone expected us to compete for title with Ole in charger what they were expecting him to massively into be at. He’s a very average manager doing a job he does not have the skillset or qualifications to do. It’s impressive it’s taken this long to all fall apart but it was inevitable.

Denis79 · Oct 27, 2021

AndyMUFC86 said:
Funny how this is glaring obvious to us amateurs yet the coaches/manager clearly haven’t seen it. If they had they would have altered for the Liverpool game knowing they would kill us when getting the press wrong

I was surprised Ole chose to play the same way against Liverpool after the Leicester and Atalanta game. It was clear it wasn't working but still he persisted.

EireRed_GS · Oct 27, 2021

I hate to say this, but its since we brought Ronaldo back in it seems to have started to go downhill. Not saying his performances are the reason, but we have had to adapt our game a bit to suit him playing up top, and it seems to have affected a fair few players and hasnt improved anyone, quite frankly done the opposite.

i honestly think we are a much better team with Cavani leading the line. He should be on most of the time.. even if its to partner Ronnie up top. I remember when we had Berbatov back in the day, who as we all know didnt run all that much, we still had very hard working players up top beside him.. I think Ronaldo could be deadly with the energy of Cavani beside him up top.

We could maybe use the Ronaldo reason to explain the forward line/ attackers, but I cant quite put my finger on how the midfield and defence has suddenly turned into brutal sunday league players so fast. Losing Varane didn't help.. but the same back line/ MF put in solid performances last season against decent teams, theyve no excuse now for being so sh*t

Ixion · Oct 27, 2021

The Europa League Final showed the limitations of this team against any half decent side and the weaknesses of Ole. Ronaldo wasn't here then so I don't think he can really take any blame

RedRonaldo · Oct 27, 2021

stefan92 said:
I do believe that Sancho did not take it well to be moved to the left when he expected to be the new RW and the star signing of the season. Lots of speculation obviously, but I do think that signing Ronaldo and shifting Sancho around did not help his confidence and performances.

From what I've heard, his best position in Dortmund is actually on the left, and he has been shifting left and right a lot for Dortmund too.

stw2022 · Oct 27, 2021

I don’t think it is just this season. We’ve lacked any sort of discernible shape or cohesion for a long, long time. The whole ‘Our XI is probably better than your XI’ thing will get you over the line in many games for a while and that’s what we’ve been reliant on. But that isn’t sustainable

Esquire · Oct 27, 2021

#07 said:
We switched from counterattacking football to kamikaze football. It's that simple.

The team shape is not compact in attack or defence. There is always tons of space between our lines that opposition sides can play in.

Fortunately DeGea and individual quality have bailed us out lots e.g. Villarreal, Atalanta. However, we have not been able to rely on that against the better English teams e.g. Leicester, Liverpool.

It's pretty much all on the coaching staff and the approach they've taken. An approach, I add, they did not need to take.

They let the “expectations” get to them. There is nothing wrong with switching systems and going to a high press. Actually it makes sense because we all know they have trouble penetrating teams who play low blocks. So trying to create turnovers high up the pitch is a logical approach. I think what really backfired is the lack of cohesive pressing (which is the staff’s fault) and the inability (or unwillingness) of the forwards to run hard. Rashford just came back so I can’t blame him but his stats for running and sprints (I think I saw somewhere) are okay. Greenwood is turning into a bit of a selfish prima donna and that is worrying. You then pair him with Ronaldo and of course the high press won’t work. Sancho is playing on the wrong wing so I am giving him a pass for now.

Irwin99 · Oct 27, 2021

It's gone south EVERY season with Ole at the beginning only to be corrected by a very good run of form that's saved his job. We've not had a single good start with him as manager and he could have been sacked 3 or 4 times over already. That's not 'Ole out, he's crap', that's just fact sadly. Even his caretaker spell was defined by a superb run of form followed by a catastrophic collapse where people were questioning whether he should be at the club.

His first full season was absolutely dire until Bruno arrived and we went on a great run and finished third with a very low tally of 66 points. 2nd season began very badly once again with rumours about him being sacked before the Everton game which we won and turned out to be the catalyst for a long unbeaten run....that was ended by Sheffield United. Finished the season with a decent total of 74 points but a very disappointing EL final.

This year, same again. Bad start once more and rumors of the inevitable sacking. Maybe he'll turn it around again. Nothing would surprise me at this point but it really isn't very inspiring and it never has been for me personally. He's just a very patchy manager.

Robindinho · Oct 27, 2021

Our luck ran out.

It was similar last season - slow starts to games, playing in little patches, team of individuals. You can't keep relying on coming back from starting the game half asleep and conceding first.

Nytram Shakes · Oct 27, 2021

I think it’s obviously a mixture of all. We have to remember that we have had several patches like this under Ole. We’re it looks like he was about to get fired just for him to claw it back.

Though I think bringing in Ronaldo has been the trigger for it to all fall apart this time. Having Ronaldo in your team completely changes the dynamic, the conversation everything. If you are going to have Ronaldo in your team, espically at his age you basically have to build the team around him to get the best out of him and compensate for that fact that out of possession you are basically a 10 man team. There was clearly never a plan for Ronaldo, and going from that too right we need to build a team around him, when you already have a number of players who arn’t great out of possession is just a huge change and Ole hasn’t coped.

it very clear from Ole’s in game management style that he struggles to adapt quickly when things arn’t going as planned, and for me that’s basically what’s happening with the squad. He had plan for the season, Ronaldo came in and that changed things and he hasn’t been able to adapt.

Yes there are a lot of underlying problems, you don’t get the feeling that there is much of a plan to break teams down, Maguire and Shaw’s form taking a nose dive. The no real holding midfielder issue, pogba’s contract hanging over the club and Sancho really not looked like he is worth 30million never mind 70 or the the hundred plus they wanted for him last year. having said that, no team is perfect, all teams have signings that don’t work out and players who loose form. So it isn’t really an excuse.

But for me the issue is we have a very limited manager and a Star player who is the second oldest outfield Player in the league and so needs players around him to do his leg work, and we don’t have those players.

Ralaks · Oct 27, 2021

It already started last season, as several has said, no more luck relying on overperforming flair players. Just look at the Europa League final, not going for the win, playing for penalties when our goalkeeper saved one in like 10 years. Absolutely tactically inept. That final alone should have been a sackable offense. Cowardly setup and cowardly tactics.

passing-wind · Oct 27, 2021

Increased expectation, Ole being unable to match the criteria to bring the team further. Exactly the same result as Lampard. These managers might be ok for top four but to challenge you need a manager who is a serial winner or can inspire and the lift the level of other players. Ole achieves neither of these aspects, he's just not at the standard to compete. He's done well to put the club in a more positive place and I think that should be his contribution cemented. Glazers keeping him on could damage his position if the team regresses even further which they undoubtedly will.

It's one thing to have bad results but it's even worse to have consistently bad performances which translated from major parts of last season into this campaign.

TheRedHearted · Oct 27, 2021

Bobcat said:
If you are just going to post "because Ole is shit", please dont. Well, you can, but try and put a bit more effort into it.

The point of this thread is discussing and trying to figure out why it went so incredibly wrong this season and why Ole failed so spectacularly when many thought, or at least hoped, we would make a serious push for the big prizes. Maybe i'm a fool, but i was really brimming with confidence for our upcoming season in August, finishing second last season and adding two serial winners and a very promising young player, i honestly thought this year might be it. Also going by the caf, it seems many shared that optimism, where most posters saw a good run in the CL and a proper league challenge as the bare minimum

That didnt happen though and even though the clubs leadership are a bunch of indecisive plonkers, its clear as day that Ole is done and dusted as manager here. So, back to my original query, why did it all unravel in such a spectacular fashion this season?

1) Coaching: This has been discussed to death already, and yes, its clear this is one of the issues. Ole by his own admission is little involved in the day to day coaching and neither is Phelan, so its mostly Carrick and McKenna who is responsible for the coaching sessions, alongside of course the specialist coaches like Eric Ramsey. Now, i think even the most ardent Ole fan must admit we never have looked particularly well drilled under him, especially when you compare him to the likes of Pep and Klopp, but i'd still argue we have had periods where we generally looked pretty solid

Post lockdown and until seasons end we had a league record of 9-4-0 and we actually played some good stuff with Bruno pulling the strings and MMM scoring for fun. We had a similar run last season between the start of November and the end of January where we had a record of 10-3-0 before losing to SHU at OT

Now these runs are by no means evidence that the coaching is good or even decent, but imo they still are a stark contrast to the absoloute shambles we have seen this season, especially in defense where we at times have seen like a non-league team, just a bunch of lads having a kick about in the park. Now i did read a "leak" in Manchester Evening News that some of the players found the coaching sessions "uninspiring", whether its true or not i dont know.

2) Tactics/team selection: Did Ole suffer some sort of head injury during the summer? Now i think most would agree hes not a brilliant tactician, but during him time here he has pulled some really good tactical performances and i refuse to believe you can beat Pep H2H just on luck and "vibes" and despite having a good squad you dont end up 3rd and 2nd in such a competetive league if you have zero clue on how to set up.

This season though, its been a complete farce. A barely fit Maguire gets picked vs Leichester and produces a stonewall 1/10 performance and generally our tactics have been completely laughable this season. A front four that "presses" without really attempting to win the ball, leaving our midfield and defense completely exposed. Meanwhile, said midfield and defense have taken up positions in complete no-mans land, meaning that most teams we face can cut right through us with ease.

Its been slight better in attack, but not by much, and again and again we've seen players making greedy/stupid descisions instead of making an easy pass to a team mate in much better position. Now i am no fan of LvG tactics where he essentially wanted us to walk the ball into the net, but this season we seem to have gone to the other extreme where in attack its every man for himself like its a competition between our players.

3) The players have lost faith in Ole/downed tools: Now, i am pretty sure that after the Liverpool result, many have, and it sure seemed like it based on our performance, but its not like that was the first poor performance of the season. In fact besides a few games, we generally have looked like we could not give a feck if we lost or not, with several players strolling around, not comitting in duels and 50/50's and just looking completely detached.

The thing is though, despite all of this we had a second half against Atalanta that did not at all look like a group of players that had downed tools. In fact, it was a pretty familiar sight of a group of players giving their all when the chips were down and the manager were under pressure. Now we have seen countless "news reports" the last few days that talks of player unrest. Maybe (probably) some truth to some of them, but others have been exposed to be complete BS.

4) Ronaldos lack of defensive work rate creates problems: This one i personally dont buy because unless Cavani was playing, none of our other CF options were particularly hard working in that regard

Those are the four that comes to mind. If anyone have any other theory as to why it all went to hell this season i'd like to hear them

Individual mistakes have cost us huge on points.

Our double pivot have completely forgotten to play football, and they weren’t great to begin with.

We are too too heavy. We have fantastic six or seven attacking players, non existent defensive midfielders and our back line has been so soft, same for our fullbacks on standard defensive duties like looking over your shoulder to see an attacker with none in three yards of them.

Ole losing confidence and sticking to a lineup that hasn’t worked.

Esquire · Oct 27, 2021

Gavinb33 said:
We should not have signed Ronaldo or Sancho this summer in my opinion.

We should have used the £80 odd million to address the glaring hole that is the midfield, going forward we scored the 2nd most league goals last season and with Rashford seemingly injured for 50% or more of it we seemed to do OK, with him back and Cavani having signed on again the need to refresh this area before the midfield didnt make sense then and most certainly not now and lets face it the Ronaldo transfer was done to save face they talk about long term plans etc but in reality there isnt one.

As for this season so far Ole wants to move to a more attacking formation without the nous to be able to pull it off as a result we are open for anyone to play against, whilst playing with 4 attackers is all well and good you need to have a plan of how and when to press, we seemingly do not have this.

When De Gea has the ball 90% of his kicks out to defenders are to the left hand side which means we are utterly predictable in the build up.

We have 0 control in midfield as we always try and play through balls with little thought about retaining possession, whilst this can work we gift possession back to the opposition to often and often in areas where they can launch counters.

Shaw in particular is either injured or believing the hype from the Shawberto shite from the summer, Liverpools goals largely came down his side and he was nowhere to be seen, there is no way Maguire should have played the last 3 games at all he is clearly off the pace and needed to come back to fitness before being put back in with his body shape and lack of mobility at the best of times.

Finally coaching if our coaching is to be whats published in press its hard to think this is not the reason we are in the shitter now, 1 man pressing, lack of cohesion, predictable build up play, lack of communication in defense, square pegs in round holes, unfit players in the team the list goes on and on

I wanted Ole to succeed so much i was willing to forgive some of his shortcomings in the early years but its plain to see he has taken this as far as he can and we need someone else to come in now.

This is not a bad post, thoughtful but a bit hindsight is 20-20. With respect:

1. Ronaldo. He has been brought in to raise standards and score goals. By all accounts players are awed by his dedication and he is scoring. So he is doing his job. Can you imagine him going to City, tearing it up and being the no. 9 that City precisely needs? The club would have never lived that down. So I understand the Ronnie signing.

2. Sancho when he came in was universally applauded because we were patently atrocious attacking on the right. AWB is not an attacking full back and signing Sancho a proven right winger made sense.

What killed Ole is really his caving in and switching in to a high press when the players were not ready. That’s his fault entirely.
Secondly, his stubbornness with his underperforming favourites is perplexing and he is ultimately paying with his job.

NicolaSacco · Oct 27, 2021

Marwood said:
Saw another poster sum it up as a failure to transition from a counter attacking team to a possession team and now we're neither. I think that's spot on.

Main culprit in that failure is too many guys who don't keep the ball.

If that really is the reason then it’s an unforgivable error by Solskjaer to try to effect that (quite significant) change given the midfield he persists with.

Bilbo · Oct 27, 2021

Marwood said:
Saw another poster sum it up as a failure to transition from a counter attacking team to a possession team and now we're neither. I think that's spot on.

Main culprit in that failure is too many guys who don't keep the ball.

I think this is the most likely correct answer. We shouldn't forget that the back 5 on Sunday, as well as McFred, is the same team that managed to keep multiple clean sheets against top 4 opposition last season. This season they are struggling for form and probably also not getting the protection they need from the rest of the team, whether that is by design or otherwise it's impossible to know.

#07 · Oct 27, 2021

Esquire said:
They let the “expectations” get to them. There is nothing wrong with switching systems and going to a high press. Actually it makes sense because we all know they have trouble penetrating teams who play low blocks. So trying to create turnovers high up the pitch is a logical approach. I think what really backfired is the lack of cohesive pressing (which is the staff’s fault) and the inability (or unwillingness) of the forwards to run hard. Rashford just came back so I can’t blame him but his stats for running and sprints (I think I saw somewhere) are okay. Greenwood is turning into a bit of a selfish prima donna and that is worrying. You then pair him with Ronaldo and of course the high press won’t work. Sancho is playing on the wrong wing so I am giving him a pass for now.

This is the key for me.

To some extent I agree with you that there was some logic in what they were trying. However, once the evidence of real life started to get presented to them the coaching staff should've gone back to basics. For example, what Liverpool did to us at the weekend was not new. Villareal could've done the same to us but they got stage fright at key moments, whereas these Liverpool players are used to delivering under pressure and didn't fluff their lines. Once you see teams flooding through your lines at will, if you don't change then its on you.

I am sceptical that we have the players to play the football we're 'expected' to, even with Varane fit. I don't think Maguire is ever going to be comfortable defending from half way. I don't think our fullbacks are positionally good enough to do be constantly stepping out and stepping in.

However, even if you think that with time and practice our players could do it, seeing that they currently are not able to the coaching staff had to take remedial action. They didn't despite repeated warnings from every team we've played this season. Including Newcastle who exposed us several times via Almiron and St Maximim.

So if they get fired they can't blame anyone else. Does anyone think we'd have lost 5-0 if they'd have played like they played Liverpool in January? Even if we'd have ended up losing by the odd goal they'd be safe, as its clear the Glazers have no desire to bring in a guy who will challenge how they run the club e.g., Conte. But they served up a once in a century home loss to our worst rivals. Despite Scholesy actually telling them it would happen days before. That kind of pig headedness is going to have people asking if you're right for the job.

I say that as someone who loves Ole, who loves Carrick, who really likes Mickey Phelan. If I know my breaks are on the verge and I choose to ignore it until I get in a pile up I only have myself to blame. Their tactics have delivered the performances we've been seeing. They have to take the rap for it if there's a reckoning.

Hisha · Oct 27, 2021

1, 2 and 3) Ole, Ole and Ole.

4) Players losing hope on Ole, especially because of his crap tactics (if you can even call it tactics). Players like Bruno downing tools (This also is on Ole).

5) Signing Ronaldo and then not playing to his strengths (Partially on Ole).

6. Not dropping out of form players and not giving chance to players like VDB; not using Cavani effectively (Also on Ole).

7) Not signing a DM ( Board at fault).

Nytram Shakes · Oct 27, 2021

Esquire said:
This is not a bad post, thoughtful but a bit hindsight is 20-20. With respect:

1. Ronaldo. He has been brought in to raise standards and score goals. By all accounts players are awed by his dedication and he is scoring. So he is doing his job. Can you imagine him going to City, tearing it up and being the no. 9 that City precisely needs? The club would have never lived that down. So I understand the Ronnie signing.

2. Sancho when he came in was universally applauded because we were patently atrocious attacking on the right. AWB is not an attacking full back and signing Sancho a proven right winger made sense.

What killed Ole is really his caving in and switching in to a high press when the players were not ready. That’s his fault entirely.
Secondly, his stubbornness with his underperforming favourites is perplexing and he is ultimately paying with his job.

Personly think Ronaldo would have been a disaster at city. Basically Pep vs Zlatan round 2.
Pep demands every player close down press and run, he dropped Augero when he first came to the club because he wouldn’t do that and again towards the end of his stay there because he couldn’t.
we all no that Ronaldo isn’t going to work in the intricate tactical system of Peps…. So he would whither be a bit part plan B time player (like Pep wanted Zlatan to be at Barca) or he would have played and the way City play would have had to completely changed causing huge disruption.
Personly think they would of 100% had a falling out at 1 point or other. Can you imagine how disruptive it would have been to cities season have to of the biggest egos in world football falling out in there dressing room. Would have been amazing!

Bebestation · Oct 27, 2021

Didn't I see that our defence was like the 18th best of the season this year. That is shocking.

It wasn't even that bad last season I'm 100% sure of it even if it was never perfect.

Only really one thing changed.

#07 · Oct 27, 2021

Gavinb33 said:
We should not have signed Ronaldo or Sancho this summer in my opinion.

We should have used the £80 odd million to address the glaring hole that is the midfield, going forward we scored the 2nd most league goals last season and with Rashford seemingly injured for 50% or more of it we seemed to do OK, with him back and Cavani having signed on again the need to refresh this area before the midfield didnt make sense then and most certainly not now and lets face it the Ronaldo transfer was done to save face they talk about long term plans etc but in reality there isnt one.

As for this season so far Ole wants to move to a more attacking formation without the nous to be able to pull it off as a result we are open for anyone to play against, whilst playing with 4 attackers is all well and good you need to have a plan of how and when to press, we seemingly do not have this.

When De Gea has the ball 90% of his kicks out to defenders are to the left hand side which means we are utterly predictable in the build up.

We have 0 control in midfield as we always try and play through balls with little thought about retaining possession, whilst this can work we gift possession back to the opposition to often and often in areas where they can launch counters.

Shaw in particular is either injured or believing the hype from the Shawberto shite from the summer, Liverpools goals largely came down his side and he was nowhere to be seen, there is no way Maguire should have played the last 3 games at all he is clearly off the pace and needed to come back to fitness before being put back in with his body shape and lack of mobility at the best of times.

Finally coaching if our coaching is to be whats published in press its hard to think this is not the reason we are in the shitter now, 1 man pressing, lack of cohesion, predictable build up play, lack of communication in defense, square pegs in round holes, unfit players in the team the list goes on and on

I wanted Ole to succeed so much i was willing to forgive some of his shortcomings in the early years but its plain to see he has taken this as far as he can and we need someone else to come in now.

I disagree with this. Because I believe even if we had prime Roy Keane and Edgar Davids as a midfield two we'd get annihilated playing like this. Frankly, even if we played 4-5-1 we'd get annihilated playing like this.

Yes, we need better midfielders, but the reason everyone from Aston Villa to Liverpool is finding it easy against us is not the players or the formation. Its the tactics.

If I send my team out to play 5-4-1. But I have a swimming pool's length between the 5, the 4 and 1, I will get beaten. Why? Because I am leaving huge amounts of space for the opposition team to play in. Once they break one line, they can then have time to circulate the ball, pull my players out of position and create chances to score goals.

What United are doing with this half-press is letting the lines get massively stretched out. Our defenders, midfielders and attackers are all miles apart. It makes us easy to play through. A simple give and go will get you into space between the United midfield and defence. From there you're relying on people making last ditch tackles, racing around to cover gaps and DeGea rolling it back to 2018.

That's why I call it kamikaze football.

Even if we had bought Casimiro and Kante last summer we'd still be getting battered playing the way we are.

When you're defending you gotta be compact. Whether you drop off into your shape like Mourinho does it. Or you push your whole team into the opposition half to squeeze the space like Pep does it. You cannot be in a position where an opposition player can beat one of your attackers, have loads of space, play a one two around your midfield and still have loads of space.

We are playing suicidal football and we will only stop shipping goals if Ole makes the team compact defensively.

Esquire · Oct 27, 2021

Nytram Shakes said:
Personly think Ronaldo would have been a disaster at city. Basically Pep vs Zlatan round 2.
Pep demands every player close down press and run, he dropped Augero when he first came to the club because he wouldn’t do that and again towards the end of his stay there because he couldn’t.
we all no that Ronaldo isn’t going to work in the intricate tactical system of Peps…. So he would whither be a bit part plan B time player (like Pep wanted Zlatan to be at Barca) or he would have played and the way City play would have had to completely changed causing huge disruption.
Personly think they would of 100% had a falling out at 1 point or other. Can you imagine how disruptive it would have been to cities season have to of the biggest egos in world football falling out in there dressing room. Would have been amazing!

You are a mad scientist and conspiracy buff! Haha but I like your thinking but United could not afford not signing him. Yes you can say we were out manoeuvred by Mendes but the Glazers, being in the bad place they are with the fans after super league, couldn’t afford to miss on this one. So well played Jorge.

But back on point, Ole should have said, “yes feckit I’m stuck with playing Ronnie so the wingers have to run to death and if you don’t, won’t play”. But he didn’t. Kept on playing Mason who I have said elsewhere is developing some bad habits and letting the hype get to his head a little bit. Rashford just came back but I think he plays hard so won’t give him stick. Sancho needs to play more on the right. My point, players either are all trying to be the main man on the team or have gone off form (like Bruno). But sad thing is Ole is not big enough to drop Bruno or Ronnie.

If he really has 3 games left he should approach it like he doesn’t give a feck about pissing off people. Play Cavani, Rashford and Sancho or anyone who will run themselves to the ground first and foremost. Pogba is leaving anyway so don’t worry about him. Just play counterattack football. That’s what we are good at, no shame in that. 433 or 352, work on it all effing week and just play to keep a clean sheet first and foremost.

MoskvaRed · Oct 27, 2021

In terms of going wrong, I don‘t think it has ever been right to be honest. We have rarely looked convincing when trying to play on the front foot under Ole although a combination of some famous counterattacking wins, Bruno Fernandes and problems at our rivals disguised the malaise to some extent. Now there is no hiding and, with the team’s previously strong morale also vanishing, the team is in a steep downward spiral. It‘s like that line in “The Sun Also Rises” when the character is asked how he went bankrupt:: “Two ways,” he answers. “Gradually, then suddenly.”

Esquire · Oct 27, 2021

#07 said:
This is the key for me.

To some extent I agree with you that there was some logic in what they were trying. However, once the evidence of real life started to get presented to them the coaching staff should've gone back to basics. For example, what Liverpool did to us at the weekend was not new. Villareal could've done the same to us but they got stage fright at key moments, whereas these Liverpool players are used to delivering under pressure and didn't fluff their lines. Once you see teams flooding through your lines at will, if you don't change then its on you.

I am sceptical that we have the players to play the football we're 'expected' to, even with Varane fit. I don't think Maguire is ever going to be comfortable defending from half way. I don't think our fullbacks are positionally good enough to do be constantly stepping out and stepping in.

However, even if you think that with time and practice our players could do it, seeing that they currently are not able to the coaching staff had to take remedial action. They didn't despite repeated warnings from every team we've played this season. Including Newcastle who exposed us several times via Almiron and St Maximim.

So if they get fired they can't blame anyone else. Does anyone think we'd have lost 5-0 if they'd have played like they played Liverpool in January? Even if we'd have ended up losing by the odd goal they'd be safe, as its clear the Glazers have no desire to bring in a guy who will challenge how they run the club e.g., Conte. But they served up a once in a century home loss to our worst rivals. Despite Scholesy actually telling them it would happen days before. That kind of pig headedness is going to have people asking if you're right for the job.

I say that as someone who loves Ole, who loves Carrick, who really likes Mickey Phelan. If I know my breaks are on the verge and I choose to ignore it until I get in a pile up I only have myself to blame. Their tactics have delivered the performances we've been seeing. They have to take the rap for it if there's a reckoning.

I don’t disagree with you and I love Ole too. I just don’t like that people say he is the absolute worst etc. Yes, it didn’t work this year but he brought the club back from the brink after Jose. There was no way after the 2nd place finish last year anyone could have foreseen this. Everyone said this year is when we get back into contention and there was no reason to think the wheels could have fallen off this quickly.

Wilt · Oct 27, 2021

Ole’s been riding his luck almost since the day he signed ….and it’s now run out.

Strelok · Oct 27, 2021

Nytram Shakes said:
Personly think Ronaldo would have been a disaster at city. Basically Pep vs Zlatan round 2.
Pep demands every player close down press and run, he dropped Augero when he first came to the club because he wouldn’t do that and again towards the end of his stay there because he couldn’t.
we all no that Ronaldo isn’t going to work in the intricate tactical system of Peps…. So he would whither be a bit part plan B time player (like Pep wanted Zlatan to be at Barca) or he would have played and the way City play would have had to completely changed causing huge disruption.
Personly think they would of 100% had a falling out at 1 point or other. Can you imagine how disruptive it would have been to cities season have to of the biggest egos in world football falling out in there dressing room. Would have been amazing!

Yeah that'd be spectacular and hilarious to see :lol:

Only problem is imo it'll happen with us instead. Conte vs Ronaldo would be pretty spectacular I think.

The White Pele · Oct 27, 2021

The transfer strategy has been wrong. Post lockdown at the end of the 19/20 season we were starting to build some rhythm with a 4-3-3 using a midfield of Matic, Pogba and Bruno and a fluid front 3.

We could have taken that idea and made the decision to upgrade/replace Matic with a younger, longer-term solution. Instead we signed Donny and Cavani and spent the summer chasing Sancho.

In doing that we accepted that last season we would have to compromise somewhere in midfield and have ended up going back and forth between McFred and Pogba + another in a double pivot of a 4-2-3-1.

We know that neither of those is ideal hence why we keep going back and forth.

We failed to address that midfield problem again this summer in the market and furthermore we actually made it worse with the signings we did/didn’t make elsewhere in the team.

By adding Ronaldo and Sancho, Ole has put pressure on himself to play with 3 forwards + Bruno due to the sheer number of options he has in those positions.

This has meant that in recent weeks he has not made the obvious change of bringing in an extra midfield player to give the team a bit more solidity and make us more difficult to play against.

The sensible tactical tweak in the last few weeks would have been to play 3 of Matic/McT/Fred/Donny/Pogba in the middle of the park and play just 3 forward players including Bruno. Bruno is pretty much undroppable and therefore the team would be more of a diamond shape.

That leaves two problems:
1. You can only select 2 from Rashford, Ronaldo, Greenwood, Cavani, Sancho, Martial, Lingard. Ronaldo is always going to be one of those unless you are willing to face a media drama and therefore this leaves quite an unhappy dressing room to manage.

2. We would need width from the full-backs and we didn’t sign a suitable challenger for AWB in the window.

Had we prioritised signings that fixed our midfield balance issue we could have had a squad as below

————————-DDG/DH
AWB/New—RV/VL—-HM/EB——LS/AT
———————-New/NM
————-PP/VDB———-Fred/McT
————————-BF/JL
————MG/EC———MR/AM

which could also be arranged as a 4-3-3 for a lot of games.

If we had been more ruthless with outgoings: Lingard, Martial, VDB, Pogba we could have maybe fixed the midfield or RB issue after we had signed Sancho and Varane. But we weren’t and then the Ronaldo opportunity coming along has added to our imbalance.

el3mel · Oct 27, 2021

Because it has been coming. We weren't criticizing the team for nothing last 2 seasons. We know it's a matter of time before our shit coaching catch up with us. Quality of players can't take you that far alone in modern football.

#07 · Oct 27, 2021

Esquire said:
I don’t disagree with you and I love Ole too. I just don’t like that people say he is the absolute worst etc. Yes, it didn’t work this year but he brought the club back from the brink after Jose. There was no way after the 2nd place finish last year anyone could have foreseen this. Everyone said this year is when we get back into contention and there was no reason to think the wheels could have fallen off this quickly.

I don't like people slagging off Ole either. I've, broadly speaking, been Ole in from day one and I'd still love him to turn it around. There's nothing I'd love more than to see United beat Spurs, Atalanta and City convincingly and the mood shift 180. It would be like a dream to see a club legend like Ole lift the league as our coach.

However, if he gets the bullet even those of us who have backed him all the way have to accept it was his own fault.

This approach he's taking is suicidal and has looked it for weeks. If this had been the first warning sign you could have sympathy. But even his mates, like Gary Neville, have been saying the table looks deceptive, as soon as we play a good team this approach is going to get found out, asking why he's not still playing counterattacking football. He could have changed it long before the Liverpool game. He chose not. That, ultimately, is why we're talking about him getting the sack. Cos if he'd have set up like he did in January we're not suffering a once in a century battering by our worst rivals.

You cannot tell your forwards to go press, if you know Maguire and Lindelof will always drop off to compensate for their lack of pace. It opens up too much space between defence, midfield and attack. You can't. And its been obvious for ages. The players know it, they've been hinting at it in interviews. If Ole sticks with this approach then who can argue with him being fired? Not even me and I love the guy.

SAFMUTD · Oct 27, 2021

To me the problem is clear, we raised the expectations and surely the squad did as well.

Results wise we've been around what we had the last two seasons, I may be wrong but I think we actually started better than last season?

So what's the difference? Bringing three world class players brought the expectations higher, not just results wise but performance wise to the fan base and the squad itself.

Seeing that even with these players results and performances didn't improve the squad demoralized and lost faith on Ole. Then in an attempt to show he could be progressive or something Ole instructed the team to press high up the pitch against Liverpool. Obviously, since the coaching is shit and players weren't prepared for it, it was a total failure that left is exposed and we were rightly punished time and time again.

The same happened to Lampard, it's easy to keep a squad happy when the expectations are low. When the fan base and the squad really expect to compete then the disappointment is bigger and the preassure piles up.

Teja · Oct 27, 2021

Denis79 said:
It looks like Ole wanted to rely less on counters and implement a tactic where we control the game and tempo, problem seems to be that he lacks the experience and knowledge to do so successfully. Not saying that he'll never get there as a manager but he needs more time in lesser leagues before making the step up.

Agree, McKenna esp. can go to some league two team and implement his ideas first before attempting to figure it out at United.

Zen86 said:
Strengthening in the summer was the catalyst to play a more aggressive and controlling brand of football, but we've struggled to get the balance right and been carved wide open as a result. Now, the team is shot of confidence and we're in somewhat of a spiral.

AndyMUFC86 said:
Personally I think Ole has tried to move us away from the counter attacking style to be more dominant with the high press. Unfortunately we/he don’t know how to press as a team and it’s left huge gaps in midfield for good teams to play right through.

VanDeBank said:
Simple.

He's tried implementing new tactics and failed miserably at it

#07 said:
We switched from counterattacking football to kamikaze football. It's that simple.

The team shape is not compact in attack or defence. There is always tons of space between our lines that opposition sides can play in.

Fortunately DeGea and individual quality have bailed us out lots e.g. Villarreal, Atalanta. However, we have not been able to rely on that against the better English teams e.g. Leicester, Liverpool.

It's pretty much all on the coaching staff and the approach they've taken. An approach, I add, they did not need to take.

AndyMUFC86 said:
Funny how this is glaring obvious to us amateurs yet the coaches/manager clearly haven’t seen it. If they had they would have altered for the Liverpool game knowing they would kill us when getting the press wrong

Real Name said:
Ole is trying to play more expansive, not rely on counters and staying deep and it hasnt worked in a most disastrous way. Our midfield options are limited and average at best, press doesnt work and our defense gets exposed.

bosnian_red said:
We wanted a more front footed/proactive approach. That requires more/different coaching that Ole has been incapable of doing. Increased expectations demanded a more progressive play style too, which we've failed at.

Anyone saying Ronaldo... we were garbage and outplayed just as bad as these games vs Wolves before he joined. Sure we have to change a bit with Ronaldo, but a lot of the changes have also been unnecessary coaching changes that have made us a lot worse.

wattsy7 said:
There’s a few potential factors I believe.

A change from counter attacking style to a more pressing style

These 100%. The questions now for me are:

(a) Will we go back to our tactics from last season for the rest of the games he's in charge (Spurs / City)?

(b) When we knew our press was disjointed, why did we try it against Liverpool who are one of the best teams in the world at evading the press? You don't need to start racing against Usain Bolt just when you're learning how to walk.

largelyworried · Oct 27, 2021

We've been reliant on the quality of individuals winning us games for some time. Without a really robust system of play on the pitch, we're more affected than other teams when our individuals are out of form. Poor form happens to everyone, but good coaches carry underperforming parts of the team by altering the balance in other ways. We've never had that under Ole. If the attackers are out of form, no goals. If the defenders are out of form, we leak.

We've had this problem for a while. Ever since the back end of Ole's first partial season, its been a recurring theme that when our form falters, it tends to go really badly for 5 or 6 games in a row. We don't usually just lose a game and then carry on. The only time that's really happened is when we lose to Sheff United, and even then our form was patchy afterwards. We struggle to turn it round because we're asking players who are low on confidence, out of form, tired, injured or whatever to continually produce outstanding moments to win games. It just can't be done forever. When they get a blow to their confidence, its strikingly on show.

We've also seen it even when we're playing relatively well. Ole's longest winning streak in the league was 6, and that was in his first 6 games. His best winning run since was 5 in a row. When you think City, Chelsea and Liverpool posted between 13 and 18 consecutive wins during their title successes, it shows how far away we were. That reliance on personal form game after game will never get you the consistency you need. You're much more susceptible to an attack that has a quiet day at the office, or a defender's mistake.

This season all that's really happened is that an unusual number of players have dropped out of form at the same time as us having a really hard run of fixtures. If the fixtures had fallen differently this year we might have recovered from the games against Villa and Everton. If we'd had gimmes against Norwich or Burnley we might have turned it round and carried on a bit longer. We could have faced our big rivals in decent form rather than bad. Instead we run slap bang into Leicester and Liverpool while we're in freewill and ship 9 goals, which highlighted all our weaknesses and then some.

Its true that a few factors have sped things up. We've tried to be more expansive this season, which has exacerbated the poor form of our defenders and midfielders & shortcomings in the squad. Playing cautiously a lot of the time minimised our weakness in midfield. Ronaldo has forced us to change how we play, which required some really careful coaching to work, which we haven't had. But in the end, our basic approach to football over the last 3 years has made this kind of end inevitable.

Its also why I'm a bit more optimistic than some others. I don't think that there's a fundamentally broken squad. When Mourinho was sacked, you looked at a back four of Young, Smalling, Jones and Valencia and your heart sank. Now its different. Two midfielders and a right back is probably all we need, along with a little pruning up front. Most clubs have a couple of players they need to upgrade, we're not that far off. We just need someone who can whip the current lot into shape and get them playing in such a way that things are a little more controlled and planned.

Smores · Oct 27, 2021

For the exact reasons plenty warned about and got abuse for daring to raise i imagine.

Now there's this reasoning going on to try and find an angle that means these people weren't wrong it's just something that has occurred recently. Confirmation bias is a strong thing.

We were all hopeful in the summer given the squad but for most of us it was based on Ole showing growth and improving as a manager.

Shaw epitomises it for me. He had a decent season last time but he still had dodgy positioning at times, it's been a major part of his career. He goes to the England NT and comes back following the instructions of Southgates WB style and were the coaching team alert enough to fix it? No he carries on for several more games.

Just a set of players playing to what they think suits them best because they've no one guiding them.

Chairman Steve · Oct 27, 2021

It’s been lurking in the background for a while but only now has it come to the forefront.

In the summer, I was reluctant to give OGS this season and said that he absolutely has to do better from the off, or we should think about replacing him at Christmas if he’s well below par…but now he’s fecking up in the games that people keep saying are why we should keep him, after months of “OGS can beat Klopp and Guardiola. Just give him money so we can sort out those pesky low block teams and mid tablers”.

Well we spent the money and we’re still getting frustrated by the mid tablers and low block teams, and he just got blown the feck out by Klopp at home with probably in his own mind…his best XI, Varane aside (and concerningly no Sancho who he chased for years and spent the most money on).

gza the genius · Oct 27, 2021

He had to change tactics and style of play to accommodate the new attacking singings and all of the talent we have up top but it appears he has no idea how to do that. I love Ole and think that up until this season he's done a great job of turning the ship around but it's crazy how bad things got so quickly this season especially with all the investment and expectation.

Nytram Shakes · Oct 27, 2021

Esquire said:
You are a mad scientist and conspiracy buff! Haha but I like your thinking but United could not afford not signing him. Yes you can say we were out manoeuvred by Mendes but the Glazers, being in the bad place they are with the fans after super league, couldn’t afford to miss on this one. So well played Jorge.

But back on point, Ole should have said, “yes feckit I’m stuck with playing Ronnie so the wingers have to run to death and if you don’t, won’t play”. But he didn’t. Kept on playing Mason who I have said elsewhere is developing some bad habits and letting the hype get to his head a little bit. Rashford just came back but I think he plays hard so won’t give him stick. Sancho needs to play more on the right. My point, players either are all trying to be the main man on the team or have gone off form (like Bruno). But sad thing is Ole is not big enough to drop Bruno or Ronnie.

If he really has 3 games left he should approach it like he doesn’t give a feck about pissing off people. Play Cavani, Rashford and Sancho or anyone who will run themselves to the ground first and foremost. Pogba is leaving anyway so don’t worry about him. Just play counterattack football. That’s what we are good at, no shame in that. 433 or 352, work on it all effing week and just play to keep a clean sheet first and foremost.

Yeah I agree it was PR signing rather than anything else.
I think before the signing of Ronaldo there was a clear plan, Pogba would be on the left Cavani up fromt Bruno behind and Sancho right. With Greenwood getting regular game time upfront and right. With Ronaldo coming in, you can’t get away with Pogba on the left as neither of them run much. Ronaldo always wants to play so to give Greenwood minutes you stick him on the right we’re he has out played Sancho, so now you have 70 million player on the bench.
I dunno what Ole should do now. I think no matter what happens Ole has to play Ronaldo, if he drops him and we win the disruption that would result from a benched Ronaldo would mean it isnt worth it, and if we loose then it would be why didn’t you play Ronaldo.
Ronaldo has changed the hole dynamic at the club, now we have him we have to make it work with him or there will be up roar. Normally when an great player ages it’s akward when they are coming towards the end of there career and there are limitations to there play, while they can still be of use to the club how they are used generally needs to change and the manager has to be incredibly strong in order to deal with it as players normally don’t cope very well with hearing it.
Ronaldo has come in at that point of his career on huge wages and massive PR and how Ole and probably who ever follows him deals with that situation is going to completely dominate pretty much every press conference they have as manager and every team selection. Whether you think Ole is a good manager or not, the job he had before Ronaldo was at the club and the job after are very different things.
Before it was how do I get results with this team, now it’s how do I get results with Ronaldo and this team. It’s huge shift in dynamic

Skills · Oct 27, 2021

Regulus Arcturus Black said:
We rode the shit out of our luck last year, had crap home form and had to come from behind so many times after a ridiculous number of awful first half performances. Those comebacks saved the season and gave people a false impression of how well coached we were (or not).

We are all over the shop tactically, even last season for the most part.

Greenwood doesn’t work hard up top, nor does Martial and Cavani missed a shit tonne of games, so the Ronaldo excuse is a load of tosh.

Clear favouritism, coupled with poor results has started to turn the squad bitter. Confidence in the manager is shot.

Is correct.

It was obvious that Ole's biggest defenders would up with a massive Pikachu face this season.

Why are Man United playing worse than last season?

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