It's not decided in Jan though. Which may suggest the premise is at fault.
Ballon d'Or 2021 | Lewandowski robbed again
- Thread starter Samid
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Considering that the 2016 euro winner in Portugal got eliminated by South American teams twice since then and also considering that there are just ten South American teams in Copa America and half already make the top 20, it has the tougher average match I’d argue as there is a lower percentage of fodder compared to Europe.
there is no question the euros have more quality and has more prestige than Copa America, but you greatly underrate the teams there and considering the tournament has been around for 105 years what Messi has done this year in all time record breaking Copa absolutely deserves its merit
Dude, UEFA has 54 teams affiliated, they will have more competitive teams eventually.
Don't be confused, I DO consider UEFA a superior confederation than Conmebol (if we don't count the amateur sides like Gibraltar,San Marino, and such).
Why? Because i would take peak Poland(1974-1982),peak Bulgaria(1994), peak Romania (1994), peak Sweden(1958-1994),peak Portugal(1966-2006),peak Checoslovakia,peak USSR, peak Yugoslavia,peak Croatia,etc over non-big south american teams cause the prime of these have been lower than the european teams i mentioned.
I DO think Euro is better than Copa America.
But let's be real the current version of Euro with 24 teams isn't much better, the past editions with 8-16 teams of course completely superior, it's a no brainer.
However winning trophies is hard, Maradona didnt win a single Copa America either, didn't even reach the final, and he is considered ultimate GOAT.
As matter of fact, aside from WC, his trophy cabinet is kinda poor, and he is considered better than legendary players with a fuller trophy cabinet like Van Basten,Platini,Zico,Best,Bobby Charlton,Zidane,Di Estefano,Puskas,etc
France lost an Euro final against at home to a Portugal side that didn't have Cristiano and barely got eliminated in group stage for not beating Iceland,Hungary, and Austria.
Portugal with a great team lost an Euro final against a very poor greek side who shouldn't even have been in the final, as Greexe got lucky with czech players missing sitters the whole game and Nedved injury in the semis.
Winning trophies with national teams is hard, it will always be, this is why I'm not surprised Messi has only won 1 Copa.
It's a weak year for Ballon D'Or so you can make a strong case for Messi but I'd tilt towards Lewandowski. I don't think winning the Copa is all that interesting. That doesn't take away from how supremely gifted he is.
The current version of the Copa America has existed since 1987. There's been 13 editions since and Argentina have been in the final 6 times, the 2nd most after Brazil. Over the entire existence of the competition, Argentina have the most "finals appearances" (with 29) and are tied at most wins with Uruguay (15). I'm sorry but if you're from Argentina you should win just by showing up.
Who cares if he only won one Copa América??
Don't give the trophy to Messi because he should've win it in 2016 and he lost in the final!
Some people are very funny
Don't give the trophy to Messi because he should've win it in 2016 and he lost in the final!
Some people are very funny
Argentina won the Copa in 93 for the last time, so no, it was not easy for Argentina to win it.
More so, he won the Olympic Games that Argentina didn't have and was desperate to win. So did Brazil with Neymar.
Messi’s 2021 stats:
Games: 51
Goals: 40
Assists: 14
Not a great year though according to Iker Quesadillas because he thinks that 5 league games for PSG in which he didn’t score equates to ‘half the year’. The mind boggles…….
That's a poor and weak argument.
Why Portugal in 2004 didn't win Euro final against a poor greek side that couldn't even qualify for WC 2002 and did not quality either for WC 2006 after winning the Euro... didn't even reach play-offs btw.
Why Portugal (with superior players and playing at home in an stadium full of portuguese supporters) lost against Greece?
Why couldn't them just win by showing up against an inferior team whose only player kinda known was Charisteas?
Also the fact that Messi wasn't just good but absolutely brilliant at the Copas.
Messi and Lewandowski are both fitting winners for this year but given trophies are usually the deciding factor being the clear standout player in an international tournament makes Messi winning it more understandable. Brushing off his efforts at the Copa is really stupid.
Not a good year because Messi should've won Copa América four years ago.
It was my reply to you posting highlights of the 2020/2021 season. That season is not the basis for Bd‘O but the calendar year.
I also think Lewa would be a worthy winner and absolutely should be given one for 2020 at the very least. I just don’t think Messi winning it is the robbery people think it is.
People had always put a question mark on Messi’s credentials because he had never won any major international but now he’s done it. Why the negative spin to it?
| Player | Games | Goals | Assists | Min per Goal | Min per G+A | Goal lead | Big title | Ballon d'or |
| Messi 2012 | 69 | 91 | 22 | 66 | 53 | 20 | No | Yes |
| Ronaldo 2013 | 59 | 69 | 15 | 72 | 59 | 24 | No | Yes |
| Ronaldo 2014 | 60 | 61 | 20 | 83 | 62 | 14 | CL | Yes |
| Lewandowski 2021 | 50 | 60 | 9 | 69 | 60 | 17 | League | ? |
| Messi 2010 | 64 | 60 | 17 | 89 | 69 | 12 | League | Yes |
| Ronaldo 2011 | 60 | 60 | 18 | 85 | 65 | 1 | No | No |
| Messi 2011 | 70 | 59 | 36 | 105 | 65 | −1 | League | Yes |
| Messi 2016 | 62 | 59 | 31 | 90 | 59 | 2 | League | No |
| Ronaldo 2016 | 55 | 57 | 16 | 91 | 70 | −2 | CL, Euros | Yes |
| Ronaldo 2015 | 57 | 57 | 17 | 88 | 68 | 5 | No | No |
| Messi 2015 | 61 | 52 | 26 | 101 | 67 | −5 | Treble | Yes |
I don't think it's been a weak year for Lewandowski, he's probably had a better year than 50-60% of Ballon d'Or winners in history.
Then the voting shouldn't end in october. And anyway Messi first picked up this form in jan 2021.
So, it's tomorrow at 7:30 p.m. UK time.
Is it Messi or Lewandowski?
I know you know who deserves it, I know you know who should win it.
Is it Messi or Lewandowski?
I know you know who deserves it, I know you know who should win it.
Lewa would a very worthy winner, has more goals, but those acting like Messi winning would be blasphemy are way off the mark:
What about progressive passes, carrying? Through balls? Chances created? Key passes? Chances creates from passes, fouls won, dribbles, shots?
Here I already looked at their underlying stats since last season for a different comment :
Let's see from FBref (only league + CL since last season since FBref doesn't sort stats yearly but that actually works in Lewa's favour since Messi didn't have the best first half of season last time either)
Messi have 2100 more passes completed (3084 vs 982) (89% completed vs 81%)
Messi have 18xA with 17 assists and Lewa has 7.7xA with 13 assists so Lewy's teammates are overperforming with regards to his assists.
Messi has more live passes, FKs, deadballs, more through balls (35 to 7)
Messi has 6.82 SCA per 90 to 2.81 for Lewy (379 vs 146 in total)
Messi has more passes, more dribbles (48 to 13), more free kicks won all leading to a shot than Lewy.
More GCA too 1.01 vs 0.65 per 90
239 completed dribbles to 47 (65% vs 56.6%)
3768 vs 1251 progressive carries
20747 yards carried vs 6318 yards. (tot distance carried)
12869 vs 3087 progressive distance carried in yard
More carries into final 3rd and into 18 yard box
It's never been about numbers, mate. Goals and general performance. That's it.
Argentina last won the Copa in 1993. What does this actually mean? It means they did not win in 1995, 1997, and 2004. They did not participate in 2001 due to safety concerns. So they didn't win it for a grand total of three editions, after winning it twice in a row. Big fecking deal.
Messi has been playing in the NT since then. They did not win in 2007, 2011, 2015, 2016, or 2019. He's been involved in five defeats! That's almost twice as many as the ones Argentina hadn't won before he graced them with his majestic presence!
He've been involved in four finals plus one WC final. Without Messi there was no finals, no Copa and surely no 2018 WC. Deal with it
Bundesliga is a farmers league compared to La Liga..
Copa MVP + La Liga best forward + Copa Del Rey MVP >>> Bundesliga best forward with Bayern in a 1-team league
La Liga top scorer + Copa top scorer + Copa most assists >>> Bundesliga top scorer
International Player of the Tournament: Messi (1) >>> Lewa (0)
MOTM: Messi (27) >>> Lewa (13)
Copa MVP + La Liga best forward + Copa Del Rey MVP >>> Bundesliga best forward with Bayern in a 1-team league
La Liga top scorer + Copa top scorer + Copa most assists >>> Bundesliga top scorer
International Player of the Tournament: Messi (1) >>> Lewa (0)
MOTM: Messi (27) >>> Lewa (13)
Deal with what, Messi being an enormous NT loser? Am I supposed to be intimidated by the time he missed a penalty in a final, cried, and retired from the NT? He sure owned me!
not worse than Ronaldo losing against Greece in Lisbon in the EC finals ending up in tears, or missing a penalty vs Chelsea in the CL final, or failing to pass the group stage above the US team in WC 2014, or losing against Serbia again in Lisbon failing to qualify directly for the WC just a week ago with his antics against his manager (not sure but he seemed to be in tears after Serbia game as well)...Tbh, I would rather have a so-called finals loser than a group-stage loser..
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This isn't the Messi vs Ronaldo thread. Messi is a better player than Ronaldo. That does not mean he doesn't have any failures in his career. His NT career has been underwhelming given his status as the best player in modern football history. People trying to make it look like playing for Argentina in South American competition is a handicap are defending a hopeless position.
All subjective, but calling an international career in which you have won 3 international player of the tournament's including doing something unprecdented in the last one is silly.
There have been 4 Copa Americas from 2015 to 2021, winning one shouldn't be considered such an incredible achievement when they're holding it every year and a half.
Don't talk sense here.
Lewa should have won it in 2020. It was ridiculous to cancel the award when all the major competitions took place. However it would also be ridiculous to award him because he missed out in 2020. That would create a revolving door of "but he deserved it last year" arguments. Imo both messi and lewa would be worthy winners. I lean towards messi because of how absolutely dreadful barcelona look without him and the sensational displays at the Copa. Lewa has an amazing scoring record, but getting injured at the crucial stage of the season and a lack of contribution in the Euros hurts his chance.
Sort of agree, particularly when you narrow it down to the list of 2 (at a push 3) potential winners each one has reasonably had. It's a very limited competition.
I think it's also worth arguing that the divide in quality between the top European national teams and their South American counterparts has been consistently growing. There hasn't been a non-European winner of the world cup in pretty much 20 years, and only once has a non-European team made it to the final. And that's during a time frame where the world cup has been held in multiple locations you would expect non-European sides to excel in.
Whether the above is an argument in favour for or against Messi/Ronaldo, I'll leave to the fanboys and girls to argue over.
I don't think it would be a disgrace if Messi won it. It's 50/50 between him and Lewandowski imo. And Lewa should get a 2020 ballon D'or in retrospect regardless.
How is it 50/50?
Lewandowski has much better numbers, has been at the top of his game for the entire year, and has also broke a major European record.
What has Messi done in comparison? His numbers are at the level of Depay's or Benzema's, he finished 3rd in La Liga, wasn't very good in the CL either, and he was anonymous against the only top 10 ranked FIFA team he played against.
Then you factor in that he's had a very mediocre second half of the year.
If his name wasn't Messi he'd hardly be in the discussion for the award. Sanchez wasn't even nominated the year he had 50 G+A and won the Copa
Do you actually think that in ten years people are going to be rewatching games from Messi's unpredecented Copa America 2021 run?
What??
If anything they are about the same strength and thats without talking about how much better Bayern is than both Barca and Madrid right now.
Why exactly would this make Messi's season better than Lewandowski's?
Both of them play for teams that are better than most of the opposition and win most of their matches. A player from the winning team is probably more likely to win Man of the Match. So this is primarily a comparison between the relative strenghts of their squads. We already know Barcelona's squad is far worse than Bayern's.
This isn't much different than people praising Cristiano for the solely reason of scoring in a very underwhelming United side...while Joshua King and Emmanuel Denis are doing the same playing for a very poor Watford this season(16th out of 20 teams).
Or when some were praising Cristiano's performance at Euro 2021, mainly for scoring 5 goals... 3 of them penalties, 1 tap-in, and only 1 very good goal. Are we sure those people would praise Divock Origi or Morata for doing exactly the same?
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Nobody has been arguing that Cristiano Ronaldo should win a Balon D'Or for quite a while now.
If it was just a numbers game players like Figo and Zidane or Ronaldinho would never win it. Messi was very good in all metrics. Dont know how you can compare him to depay. La liga topscorer and had a very good copa. His faults were not scoring in big ganes apart fron psg. I wont whinge if lewa wins it.
I think it’s 50/50. Leaning towards Lewandowski for his consistency over whole calendar year, but think Messi might nick it just in time, as his poor form this season hasn’t been accounted much for the voting, which closed over a month ago.
Either case, I wouldn’t complain if either of them winning this. Lewandowski has scored by far most goals this year, whereas Messi has won Copa and was best the performer before summer.