Squid Game smuggler sentenced to death by firing squad in North Korea

InfiniteBoredom said:

Their own agricultural product? If needs must they can always start planting weeds/heroin and ship into Russia.

Mao starved 15% of the population to death with his Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution, Northern Vietnamese lived under terrible privation following the lane reform mandated by China after 1954, and went on to fight another 20 years war for reunification. You are severely underestimating the resilience of East Asia Communist regimes.

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North Korea is nothing like those places, it's a complete mess. They don't have a functioning state, their government basically doesn't know how to govern. They don't build anything. They don't feed their own people. They don't tax anyone. Without foreign support millions more would've already starved.

To maintain this regime they would need to instantly go from being completely dependent on another nation, to becoming a revenue generating and functioning state.

Why don't they just start planting stuff now?

Shakesey said:

I work very hard and make up great prans
But nobody ristens, no one understands

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So ronery and sadry arone....

Winrar said:

South Koreans' version of peace is completely different from the North's.

I can assure you that no sane Korean south of the 38th will ever entertain the idea of being ruled under the Kim regime.

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No south Koreans want to live in `north. But they are wiling to accept a North Korea as a separate country. Do you know that the war has not been declared over? Both the Koreans want an end to the war and sign a declaration to end the war. However that means US has no status to stay in South Korea if the war is over. Normally if two countries especially neighbours are left alone they will come to some sort of agreement if there is no outside influence. The Rocket man is interested in living his life and he is not interested in invading south Korea and south Korea know that and is why wanting to have peace with them.

Foxbatt said:

No south Koreans want to live in `north. But they are wiling to accept a North Korea as a separate country. Do you know that the war has not been declared over? Both the Koreans want an end to the war and sign a declaration to end the war. However that means US has no status to stay in South Korea if the war is over. Normally if two countries especially neighbours are left alone they will come to some sort of agreement if there is no outside influence. The Rocket man is interested in living his life and he is not interested in invading south Korea and south Korea know that and is why wanting to have peace with them.

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So you're going to take Kim's words at face value?

And even if we so very generously do so, do you think South Korea will really be left alone with China looming in their horizon?

Tarrou said:

Let's say he feels backed into a corner and does something extreme like you say. Most outcomes obviously result in them losing a war, but let's say by some miracle they win a conflict by threatening to go nuclear and the US backs off.

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There aren't any outcomes where they win. Everything from the non-NK side is predicated on the avoidance of war at all costs, because any war results in a nightmarish death toll, even if nuclear weapons aren't involved. China still have their agreement that they'd intervene if anyone attacked NK (although not if NK attack someone else) which adds another layer of complication, but realistically the US wins any war in North Korea. It's just the cost of doing so is so unreasonably high that only a madman would actually do it.

The only possible way to topple that regime externally without millions of deaths would probably be China doing it themselves.

Tarrou said:

North Korea is nothing like those places, it's a complete mess. They don't have a functioning state, their government basically doesn't know how to govern. They don't build anything. They don't feed their own people. They don't tax anyone. Without foreign support millions more would've already starved.

To maintain this regime they would need to instantly go from being completely dependent on another nation, to becoming a revenue generating and functioning state.

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Pol Pot’s Cambodia wasn’t a functioning state, still took an invasion from Vietnam to topple him, despite widespread starvation, displacement and ideologically driven mass executions.

The lives of NK people means little more than cattle to Kim and his buddies, even if 90% of the people were to die off they wouldn’t bat an eyelid as long as they hold on to the military. If it means start taxing people to the last piece of clothes on their back, they will do it, if it means putting them to grow food and taking all of the produce, leaving them the bare minimum to survive, they will do it, if it means guarding the border to SK to prevent people escaping starvation, they will do it. It doesn’t take a lot of skill to run a warlord’s fief, which is what NK is, not a country.

Tarrou said:

Why don't they just start planting stuff now?

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Because it’s not necessary. Life’s great for them now. China’s increasing bellicosity towards the West means there’s little chance of them being dropped like a hot potato. And the dependence suits China just fine because they also don’t want an independent, functioning satellite state on what they consider their rightful historical territory. If the US didn’t get involved in the Korean War, Koreans as a people wouldn’t exist today.

Foxbatt said:

Normally if two countries especially neighbours are left alone they will come to some sort of agreement if there is no outside influence.

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And if my nan had wheels she'd be a caravan. This level of idealism is disconnected from reality sadly.

I don't even know if there have been wars without outside influence in history, but if there have been they sure are rarer than hen's teeth. I still remember being 15yo and studying Thucycides' and Herodotus' historical accounts of the Peloponnesian War and Greco-Persian wars for classical history class in school. Quickly realising as I read through that even ~2500 years ago, in every war, outside actors would always be trying to influence (if not directly instigate) a war to secure the most beneficial for them outcome.

My point is that wars end when someone is defeated or when the combatants run out of energy/willingness to fight. Not when outside influence stops. Because that never stops.

Siorac said:

I'm always amazed that that country can still exist. It defies sense.

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Pretty much the same with the united states

Winrar said:

So you're going to take Kim's words at face value?

And even if we so very generously do so, do you think South Korea will really be left alone with China looming in their horizon?

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It's really not in his interests to attack anyone, he's basically living as a false deity right now. Attack south korea and that'd soon be over.

It's only really when he starts to lose power that he might do something stupid in my opinion.

Smores said:

It's really not in his interests to attack anyone, he's basically living as a false deity right now. Attack south korea and that'd soon be over.

It's only really when he starts to lose power that he might do something stupid in my opinion.

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You think attacking South Korea stopped Kim Il Sung from his deity status? Of course, circumstances were different then, but it still nullifies the "if Kim attacks South then he'll lose popularity" argument at face value.

Plus the original argument that I retorted to was the assertion that North and South Korea both want United States out of the Korean peninsula, which is only half true because South Korea has every reason to keep US influence in their country for at least as long as North Korea is a thing, with China looming in the horizon as one of those reasons as I mentioned.

Kentonio said:

Crazy man might start a war in future so we should just skip ahead and start it now?

The NK border is only about 25km away from Seoul, a city of nearly 10m inhabitants. North Korea have thousands of dug-in artillery positions within range. They also have a fairly advances missile program. The understanding is that in the case of any direct attack on North Korea, the first response will be to shell the crap out of Seoul, which would result in a staggeringly high death count and which there is basically no way to prevent. That's before the war has even really started. Oh and those missiles? They have the range to hit countries like Japan as well as South Korea, and there's a good chance they are already nuclear tipped.

NK is a perfect example of how you can't solve all the worlds problems, no matter how much we might want to.

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It's the geographical representation of the adage that "it wasn't until a mosquito landed on my balls that I realised that aggression isn't always the solution".

Tarrou said:

it would get solved real quick if China pulls the funding, because the regime has to end then

they'd likely just make peace with South Korea then because the alternatives all suck

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They'd gladly pull out if the US promised to never intervene or set up base in their front yard.

Korea/China/Japan has been coexisting for 2000 years prior to US intervention, it's not always one country aiming to annex the other.

Sky1981 said:

They'd gladly pull out if the US promised to never intervene or set up base in their front yard.

Korea/China/Japan has been coexisting for 2000 years prior to US intervention, it's not always one country aiming to annex the other.

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Yeah, they'll gladly pull out their economic support and wait until North Korea collapses before they attempt to take over.

Also if you know your history, you should know those three countries haven't really gotten along with each other. I mean, just in the last century Japan annexed Korea and invaded China.

Sky1981 said:

They'd gladly pull out if the US promised to never intervene or set up base in their front yard.

Korea/China/Japan has been coexisting for 2000 years prior to US intervention, it's not always one country aiming to annex the other.

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You know the three countries have a fairly rich history of invading and trying to conquer each other right?

Kentonio said:

You know the three countries have a fairly rich history of invading and trying to conquer each other right?

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Yet here they are as 3 nations. You can say the same for whole Europe was one nation stabbing another with a pointy stick.

Sky1981 said:

They'd gladly pull out if the US promised to never intervene or set up base in their front yard.

Korea/China/Japan has been coexisting for 2000 years prior to US intervention, it's not always one country aiming to annex the other.

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Yeah, I don’t really blame China for doing it.

But I don’t think North Korea is a problem that couldn’t be solved if there was enough global will to do so. Or at least improved upon in terms of human rights violations.

People are living in near Holocaust-like conditions but there is hardly any public-clamour to do anything. If people started applying pressure by boycotting Chinese products en-masse I think we could at the very least influence China to do something (if not withdraw support altogether which seems unlikely)

Tarrou said:

Yeah, I don’t really blame China for doing it.

But I don’t think North Korea is a problem that couldn’t be solved if there was enough global will to do so. Or at least improved upon in terms of human rights violations.

People are living in near Holocaust-like conditions but there is hardly any public-clamour to do anything. If people started applying pressure by boycotting Chinese products en-masse I think we could at the very least influence China to do something (if not withdraw support altogether which seems unlikely)

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It's not that simple. Never was that simple.

Kim is the bad guys yes but how much of that is helped created by US / russia conflict?

Vietnam War, korean war isnt happening on vacumm and its too simplicistic to blame one party alone.

Why can't iran just be peaceful and embrace democracy? Well it's not that simple isnt it? Not after all the US had done to them. Can we blame the US for doing what they think it's best for their interest? But at the same time can we blame korean? Iran? Iraq?

Tarrou said:

Yeah, I don’t really blame China for doing it.

But I don’t think North Korea is a problem that couldn’t be solved if there was enough global will to do so. Or at least improved upon in terms of human rights violations.

People are living in near Holocaust-like conditions but there is hardly any public-clamour to do anything. If people started applying pressure by boycotting Chinese products en-masse I think we could at the very least influence China to do something (if not withdraw support altogether which seems unlikely)

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China holds too much economic leverage to be told what to do by the rest of the world, and they're hardly that much better with concentration camps and human rights violations of their own to care about making things any better in the brutal regime that they prop up. (also in their interest to keep it that way)

Nothing will change in the status quo of North Korea unless it collapses on its own, and the exact timeframe as to when that happens is anyone's guess.

Sky1981 said:

It's not that simple. Never was that simple.

Kim is the bad guys yes but how much of that is helped created by US / russia conflict?

Vietnam War, korean war isnt happening on vacumm and its too simplicistic to blame one party alone.

Why can't iran just be peaceful and embrace democracy? Well it's not that simple isnt it? Not after all the US had done to them. Can we blame the US for doing what they think it's best for their interest? But at the same time can we blame korean? Iran? Iraq?

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I'm not blaming one party, I said in my post I don't blame China - but they are the party that can have the most influence. The west could influence China if there was any will to - but nobody seems to care. It's easy to see why countries don't want to put pressure on them, but consumers could if there was as much concern as there is for many other causes.

Sky1981 said:

Yet here they are as 3 nations. You can say the same for whole Europe was one nation stabbing another with a pointy stick.

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Not for want of trying.

Japan was relatively remote and only really came into real conflict with Mainland China by the 13th century (Khubilai invasion). The Korean Peninsula, on the other hand, had some parts that historically have been Chinese territory before being abandoned or conquered, its strategic position means China would never tolerate an independent, strong nation on its doorstep. There’s no scenario in which they would ‘gladly pull out’ without at least a puppet government in charge.

MadMike said:

And if my nan had wheels she'd be a caravan. This level of idealism is disconnected from reality sadly.

I don't even know if there have been wars without outside influence in history, but if there have been they sure are rarer than hen's teeth. I still remember being 15yo and studying Thucycides' and Herodotus' historical accounts of the Peloponnesian War and Greco-Persian wars for classical history class in school. Quickly realising as I read through that even ~2500 years ago, in every war, outside actors would always be trying to influence (if not directly instigate) a war to secure the most beneficial for them outcome.

My point is that wars end when someone is defeated or when the combatants run out of energy/willingness to fight. Not when outside influence stops. Because that never stops.

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The problem is that USA does not want them to sign a peace treaty. This is the issue. Moon has repeatedly called for an official end to the Korean War. He wants to start the process of denuclearisation. He accepts that North Korea is not going to suddenly destroy their nuclear weapons. Not especially after what happened in Libya. But the Americans are refusing to accept this. Everyone knows that the Americans can destroy North Korea and the North and the South Koreans know that too and that is why this is such a big issue in South Korea now. They do not want this hanging around their neck anymore. They do not want to unite the two Koreas. They are perfectly happy being South Korea. All they want is peace in their peninsula. If the Americans agree it could be done almost instantly and there would be a lot less tension in the region.

Foxbatt said:

The problem is that USA does not want them to sign a peace treaty. This is the issue. Moon has repeatedly called for an official end to the Korean War. He wants to start the process of denuclearisation. He accepts that North Korea is not going to suddenly destroy their nuclear weapons. Not especially after what happened in Libya. But the Americans are refusing to accept this. Everyone knows that the Americans can destroy North Korea and the North and the South Koreans know that too and that is why this is such a big issue in South Korea now. They do not want this hanging around their neck anymore. They do not want to unite the two Koreas. They are perfectly happy being South Korea. All they want is peace in their peninsula. If the Americans agree it could be done almost instantly and there would be a lot less tension in the region.

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Just last year North Korea blew up the de facto embassy that the Koreans agreed to create to improve relations without any reason.

Anybody that believes North Korea will actually leave South Korea alone after they sign a "peace treaty" and US leaves the peninsula, is living in a fantasy world.

Anybody that actually believes that North Korea is a regime that can be reasoned with after decades of provocations, is living in a fantasy world.

Anybody that actually believes that China and Russia will leave the strategic and economic gold mine potential in Korean peninsula alone after United States leaves, is deluded.

The USA may or may not want the Koreas to sign a peace treaty and that's different debate altogether, but frankly it doesn't matter as much as China and Russia having their eyes on gaining more control over the region and North Korea's own instability and provocations.

Winrar said:

Just last year North Korea blew up the de facto embassy that the Koreans agreed to create to improve relations without any reason.

Anybody that believes North Korea will actually leave South Korea alone after they sign a "peace treaty" and US leaves the peninsula, is living in a fantasy world.

Anybody that actually believes that North Korea is a regime that can be reasoned with after decades of provocations, is living in a fantasy world.

Anybody that actually believes that China and Russia will leave the strategic and economic gold mine potential in Korean peninsula alone after United States leaves, is deluded.

The USA may or may not want the Koreas to sign a peace treaty and that's different debate altogether, but frankly it doesn't matter as much as China and Russia having their eyes on gaining more control over the region and North Korea's own instability and provocations.

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Well in that case the South Korean government and people are living in a fantasy land. It is their country and it is their land and they should be able to decide for themselves.

Foxbatt said:

Well in that case the South Korean government and people are living in a fantasy land. It is their country and it is their land and they should be able to decide for themselves.

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I'm Korean myself, so I guess I'm living in fantasy land because I don't trust China, Russia, and North Korea (all countries that have a track record of shadiness for numerous different reasons) that they will definitely leave South Korea alone in the event US leaves for them to sign the "peace treaty." Hell, this very thread is about someone getting executed for watching a god damn netflix series in one of the coutries I mentioned.

I mean look, I would love for us to mind our own business, but that is sadly a pipe dream. I'm just being realistic.

Winrar said:

I'm Korean myself, so I guess I'm living in fantasy land because I don't trust China, Russia, and North Korea (all countries that have a track record of shadiness for numerous different reasons) that they will definitely leave South Korea alone in the event US leaves for them to sign the "peace treaty." Hell, this very thread is about someone getting executed for watching a god damn netflix series in one of the coutries I mentioned.

I mean look, I would love for us to mind our own business, but that is sadly a pipe dream. I'm just being realistic.

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Are you a Korean living in Korea or a Korean American living in the US? And tell that to your President Moon Jae-in.

whoever did this must have massive cajones

https://news.yahoo.com/pyongyang-de...3kWZGlUC4Fg98DipsRpa-Bdmn3pr8Q96kGpw6EsLxqgpx

Show us your handwriting, demand North Korean officials after graffiti appears calling Kim Jong-un a 'son of a b----'

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