Who is to blame? - Super thread

devilish said:

I rarely open new threads these days because most of the arguments have already been discussed. However I am noticing many finger pointing at one aspect of what's going wrong with Manchester United. While there's truth in what most are saying, I do believe that the issue is far more complex and involves way more people then simply the players etc.

Thus I am going to make a list of what I think is to blame. Starting from the least to the most to blame. You're free to argue pro and against that

8. Rangnick

Rangnick is a fantastic football person. While there are a number of managers who had build great sides some far more successful then Ralph's teams ever were, Rangnick had literally built great clubs. He's a person whose top to bottom vision is second only to that of the likes of prime Sir Alex. That's a valuable asset to have especially in a football world were jobs are often super specialised. Managers had become head coaches, there are DOFs, there are chief scouts, analysts etc. Rangnick is one of the few people left who can do each and every job. His gegenpressing is the way to go. It allows clubs to build a successful side without having to spend ridiculous money on world class players per position while still playing attacking football.

However I do question the wisdom of implementing such demanding tactic with one of the laziest and entitled squads in the EPL mid way into the season especially when we simply lack the personnel to do so and that our players haven't pressed for the past 3 years. Cavani-Ronaldo are ancient, AWB look lost in the opponent's half of the pitch while Maguire has less pace then a frigging tortoise. You don't need to be a genius to acknowledge that this 4-2-2-2 system can't work here, at least, not with the present side

7. SAF

I blame the great man on two things. First of all he left an ageing side and a ridiculously outdated system behind (no DOF, technical director, sporting director etc). That was fine for him as the guy was a one man army but it was set to tank the moment he retired (which would have been sooner rather then later). Secondly its evident that he still have a huge say at OT. At age 80 and with him not being involved in football on a day to day basis that is silly. Football had moved on, the guy had become too sentimental and what worked in his time won't work now.

6. The fans

We fans are Manchester United's last bastion. Most of the people out there are in for the money (salary) or the fame associated being linked with us (pundits etc) but we're the ones who will stick to the club and throw money at it no matter what. Thus we should have a mind of our own and stop applauding mediocracy. We can't win all the time and that's a fact. However there's standards that need to be met and kept no matter whose the employee is. We have too many blood suckers at the club for us to allow others to do the thinking for us.

5. Recruitment

Time and time again we had been promised that we'll be sorting this issue for good. The result of years of reform was a cautious recruitment team who often overspend (salary or/and fee) on proven players who are either not good enough (Maguire, AWB etc) or whose on their big last pay cheque (Ronaldo, Varane, Cavani). Players are human beings. Those not good enough know it and will do anything to defend their highly paid position (leak information, cheat and get people sacked) while players heading towards the end of their career are either impatient for that last trophy or will take care not to get that injury that they would have to carry for the rest of their lives. Not to forget that what one can do in his 20s is not what can one can do in late 30s either

4. Contract guys

Why do we give so much salary to average players? What's the point of it? Players on a huge salary are so difficult to get rid and would be forced upon the next manager. Also what's the brilliance between letting players walk on free instead of selling them before? We risk losing 100-120m worth of talent this year alone!

3. Players

We've got one of the laziest and quite frankly mediocre squads in the EPL, with players insisting in making Championship level mistakes. United leak like a sieve and no one ever takes responsibility of what's going on. That's disgusting.

2. The board

Where do I start? Ah yes, over 1 Billion pounds spent and 4 managers sacked (+ 2 interim) and there's absolutely nothing to show for it. We allowed a failed Cardiff manager to spend 415m on players, it took us 3 years searching for a DOF only to discover Murtough at Carrington and we gave Fletcher 2 promotions in few months. Now there are even rumours of players being able to bypass the manager and speak directly to the board. How silly is that?

1. The owners

I don't hate the owners as much as the typical United fan does. I do think that they have invested in the club and they tried to keep themselves at an arm's length from football matters which is a good thing. However there comes a time when enough is enough. This club had been throwing tons of their own money in the bin for years. Surely a responsible owner would at least bother to look that up and make necessary changes to stop that from happening. Ours simply don't. I know that the likes of Woodward had produced profit on a year basis however waste is still waste and its bad.

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MrSingh2002 said:

Needs a poll.

The Board, Ed Woodward, Past managers, Ralf Ragnick, The Owners, The Players, The Fans.

All as options.

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Old Ma Crow said:

Anyone read Hodgson’s balanced analysis? For me the culture that the Glazers have created at the club and their mismanagement of the football company continues. Hopefully they’ve identified that and RR has been brought in to rectify the issues over a period of time.

https://www.skysports.com/football/...room-and-board-must-back-him-says-roy-hodgson

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Moriarty said:

Is Roy aware that Ralf is only an interim manager? Some of his observations have merit but the board are not looking past May as far as Ralf is concerned.

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Tallis said:

I think it’s naive to assume that our players are some special mercenaries and have a different mentality from clubs who have had success recently. This has become the press narrative and fans will lap it up, I am sure.

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Lentwood said:

I wouldn't say it's naive, we are the richest club in the world and we pay insane wages, especially when compared with clubs that actually win trophies.

You have to ask why, for example, Pogba is happy to stay at United, but only if we offer insane money. Ronaldo, supposedly loves the club, but we had to pay £510K per week to stop him joining our city rivals. Varane, supposedly wanted a new challenge, but looks to have simply chosen the highest offer. De Gea, held the club to ransom, but again has been content to waste his best years at a failing club in exchange for his massive salary. Sancho...hot prospect in high-demand...chose United...but on £350K a week.

I could go on really. Meanwhile, the likes of Mane (£110K) and Salah (£220K) have seen out their prime years earning less than Anthony Martial (£250K), but secure in the knowledge that they are actually part of a successful side.

It's a somewhat simplistic way of looking at it, but I definitely think that joining/staying at United in the last 6/7 years raises questions by definition. It's like when you see an incredibly attractive young lady with a withered old millionaire. Sure, there's probably one in ten that genuinely have love for their partner, then there are the other nine who are just milking them for everything they are worth.

When Abrahamovic bought Chelsea, they openly had a policy of trying to hijack our deals. I liked this because it was a great test of a players motivations. Rooney turned down Chelsea and had a glittering club career and is now a genuine United legend. Robben and Mikel went for the cash, and ultimately I'm not sorry about that in either case. Nowadays, roles have been reversed. Players join Liverpool or City to win trophies, and United because they can maximise their salary and platform.

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SER19 said:

Posted this elsewhere re Ferguson and the absurd aiming of blame towards him.

'You don't get to simultaneously blame Ferguson and the Glazers. The board have been shown up as utterly incompetent, self interested businessmen and the fact that Ferguson managed to wrangle any degree of control while keeping them in check and keeping us successful is a miracle in itself. This in vogue trend of blaming Ferguson is lazy, embarrassing rubbish. What other manager in the world do you place the demand on to babysit the board and oversee the state of the club as well as win games? Because it can't be both, either you wanted Ferguson to surrender power and relinquish control to this incompetent mob earlier, while he was still manager, or you wanted to be successful for all those years we were. Rubbish, one dimensional thinking, the same as the utter myth that wont flush that he wasn't tactically sound, despite winning 13 titles and hitting 7 CL semi finals, winning it twice. Oh, that was just charisma and man management. Give him a dutch sounding name and you'd be creaming yourself in front of youtube highlights.'

Overall it comes from top down and the loss of Ferguson led to a Woodward and Glazer led drop in standards which has permeated through the club, and is now upheld by players who know little else. Average guys piggy backing on the success and reputation built by Ferguson and real footballers

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devilish said:

I rarely open new threads these days because most of the arguments have already been discussed. However I am noticing many finger pointing at one aspect of what's going wrong with Manchester United. While there's truth in what most are saying, I do believe that the issue is far more complex and involves way more people then simply the players etc.

Thus I am going to make a list of what I think is to blame. Starting from the least to the most to blame. You're free to argue pro and against that

8. Rangnick

Rangnick is a fantastic football person. While there are a number of managers who had build great sides some far more successful then Ralph's teams ever were, Rangnick had literally built great clubs. He's a person whose top to bottom vision is second only to that of the likes of prime Sir Alex. That's a valuable asset to have especially in a football world were jobs are often super specialised. Managers had become head coaches, there are DOFs, there are chief scouts, analysts etc. Rangnick is one of the few people left who can do each and every job. His gegenpressing is the way to go. It allows clubs to build a successful side without having to spend ridiculous money on world class players per position while still playing attacking football.

However I do question the wisdom of implementing such demanding tactic with one of the laziest and entitled squads in the EPL mid way into the season especially when we simply lack the personnel to do so and that our players haven't pressed for the past 3 years. Cavani-Ronaldo are ancient, AWB look lost in the opponent's half of the pitch while Maguire has less pace then a frigging tortoise. You don't need to be a genius to acknowledge that this 4-2-2-2 system can't work here, at least, not with the present side

7. SAF

I blame the great man on two things. First of all he left an ageing side and a ridiculously outdated system behind (no DOF, technical director, sporting director etc). That was fine for him as the guy was a one man army but it was set to tank the moment he retired (which would have been sooner rather then later). Secondly its evident that he still have a huge say at OT. At age 80 and with him not being involved in football on a day to day basis that is silly. Football had moved on, the guy had become too sentimental and what worked in his time won't work now.

6. The fans

We fans are Manchester United's last bastion. Most of the people out there are in for the money (salary) or the fame associated being linked with us (pundits etc) but we're the ones who will stick to the club and throw money at it no matter what. Thus we should have a mind of our own and stop applauding mediocracy. We can't win all the time and that's a fact. However there's standards that need to be met and kept no matter whose the employee is. We have too many blood suckers at the club for us to allow others to do the thinking for us.

5. Recruitment

Time and time again we had been promised that we'll be sorting this issue for good. The result of years of reform was a cautious recruitment team who often overspend (salary or/and fee) on proven players who are either not good enough (Maguire, AWB etc) or whose on their big last pay cheque (Ronaldo, Varane, Cavani). Players are human beings. Those not good enough know it and will do anything to defend their highly paid position (leak information, cheat and get people sacked) while players heading towards the end of their career are either impatient for that last trophy or will take care not to get that injury that they would have to carry for the rest of their lives. Not to forget that what one can do in his 20s is not what can one can do in late 30s either

4. Contract guys

Why do we give so much salary to average players? What's the point of it? Players on a huge salary are so difficult to get rid and would be forced upon the next manager. Also what's the brilliance between letting players walk on free instead of selling them before? We risk losing 100-120m worth of talent this year alone!

3. Players

We've got one of the laziest and quite frankly mediocre squads in the EPL, with players insisting in making Championship level mistakes. United leak like a sieve and no one ever takes responsibility of what's going on. That's disgusting.

2. The board

Where do I start? Ah yes, over 1 Billion pounds spent and 4 managers sacked (+ 2 interim) and there's absolutely nothing to show for it. We allowed a failed Cardiff manager to spend 415m on players, it took us 3 years searching for a DOF only to discover Murtough at Carrington and we gave Fletcher 2 promotions in few months. Now there are even rumours of players being able to bypass the manager and speak directly to the board. How silly is that?

1. The owners

I don't hate the owners as much as the typical United fan does. I do think that they have invested in the club and they tried to keep themselves at an arm's length from football matters which is a good thing. However there comes a time when enough is enough. This club had been throwing tons of their own money in the bin for years. Surely a responsible owner would at least bother to look that up and make necessary changes to stop that from happening. Ours simply don't. I know that the likes of Woodward had produced profit on a year basis however waste is still waste and its bad.

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RedMilo said:

Ultimately it's board and owners fault, coupled with the Premier League/FA for allowing such a takeover to occur in the first place.

The Disneyland of football has been devoid of any real control for so long and not learning from their mistakes it keeps making. The way the club has been run since SAF and Gill left has been nothing short of criminal, and yes the fact they were allowed to saddle us with so much debt in the meantime, any other club(company) would have folded by now, the incompetence is staggering. I think us fans should have sued the football authorities for ratifying such a takeover personally.

At the start of the season, there was so much optimism, with what we thought were world class signings in Varane & Sancho. Most of us got a little bit giddy over Ronaldo, and as fans who can blame us but its a deal they shouldn't have done. The RedCafe was almost unanimous in their opinion Varane & Sancho were real improvements, and with our young attacking talent especially Greenwood and with Cavani signing for another year, we dared to believe we might even come close this year to the title.

The season started off okay and Greenwood was firing, then the opportunity to sign Ronaldo came along, and feck the project (that actually looks like it could get us close, for the first time in 8 years), but as always, the commercial side of the business makes the decisions in this club, no one or thing else matters apart from money. I dont blame Ronaldo, I think he is incredible as an individual for his age, but the team can't play high pressing attacking football with him in the team, and the players are not suited to Rangnick's 4-2-2-2 - it's a mess again.

The players are falling out behind the scene's we are led to believe, and you can see why, so the harmony that Ole brought to the squad post-Jose looks to have gone, and we are back to square one. Ole's period in charge, should have lay the foundations for a more experienced manager/coach to come in and adopt world class tactics and motivation in a good group of players, in order for the football team to take the next step. The owners do not learn.

They have spent money, our money, but only after SAF left the club, knowing that if they didn't their asset would de-value without investment. Let's be frank though, the investment is not out of their own pockets is it!

The other two signings haven't yet improved us either, Varane looks good but is very injury prone and we have enough of those players over the years, and Sancho has all the great close control in the world, but the fecker can't run. I must admit I never really watched him, but for all his hype I thought we were signing a special player, I dont see it.

It feels like the club is run based on reaction from fan's and social media trending, it's hard to imagine now, but more than half of the club's social media activities, were banned before SAF left the building, ever asked yourself why? Ever heard of the saying, the blind leading the partially sighted, that's fan and media reaction leading the board who are leading us back to the promised land. It's turning into a joke of a club.

Get a work class manager, and coach set up in asap, weed out the players who dont want to achieve or be here, and build for the future. We cant win any title for the next 3-4 years without going through this process.

P.S. Stop putting players on ridiculous contracts, because you can't shift them, and they get too much too soon. You have to earn your way to be successful, there is no other way for us to be successful, that comes with basic principals - keep it as much about the club and the football, more than the money - you dumb fecks.

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Marwood said:

SAF left a squad that was about to collapse but LvG alone had enough time and resources to sort that.

Of all the post Fergie managers he did the most damage. A truly shocking record in the transfer market. Set us back years. Then Mourinho came in and gave him a run for his money.

Ultimately the board got the wrong managers in. It's on them.

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ManchesterManchester said:

Sorry but I have to call out that what you just said is just wrong. LVG and Mourinho both did not get the players that they wanted. For you to put the sole blame on them for transfers, I think that’s just not accurate.

This is on record that the board couldn’t deliver their first or even second choice targets. It is also a fact that we have a transfer committee which includes our head scout and no manager has sole control over transfers.

I also disagree with you that the club have done good with transfers under Ole, they spent half a billion pounds! Of course, there will be improvement when you spend that much. Can we say that it was all used wisely though? Some could argue we have regressed, Mourinho and LVG won cups with far less resources than Ole.

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ManchesterManchester said:

I see a lot of arguments in here that Fergie is partly to blame and others argueing he isn’t to blame. I agree with both arguments.

Ferguson is definitely partly to blame as in he has influenced terrible decisions driven by sentiment. However, the buck stops with the owners because a retired legend with health problems should never ever be put into such a vital decision making role. They should have their own expertise and be able to transition Man Utd from the past to the future without relying on Ferguson.

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devilish said:

As said in the initial post I made a list of people who deserve to be blamed with Rangnick and SAF being among the least to blame.

I agree fully with what you've said about Rangnick. However when a manager fails its usually the fault of both the manager and the board. The manager should acknowledge that this squad is not built around gegenpressing and he should adapt to it. That's something any manager should do to succeed but its more important for a transitional manager whose there simply to stir the ship in the right direction.

I blamed SAF on a number of small but significant issues which include not making sure that the club can live without him. He left United with an ageing squad that needed some serious rebuild and a football structure that is, quite frankly, outdated. Don't take me wrong the board should have done better then they did. However let's not kid ourselves that things were great before or that SAF doesn't still hold a certain level of influence at the club. The guy still hold an office at United and is still consulted on a regular basis.

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anant said:

Can't blame Rangnick for this for sure. The issue with the club has been that whenever we change managers, the new manager's play style is drastically different from the previous one's. So, expecting the new manager to just come in and not need a "transition" period is senseless. Add to that, we give our managers too much autonomy in terms of recruitment. Look at LVG's transfers - The abject failure of the club in those 2 summer windows and lack of any clear plan with what they were going for sums up the chaos this club has been.

Similarly, blaming SAF is wrong as well, atleast for the items you've listed. He retired 8.5 years ago, and we've spent a billion post that. Surely, we cant keep going on about "He left an ageing squad". The lack of structure should have been on the board and owners as well - At the end of the day, SAF was an employee of the club who could have resigned or left at any time. With his age, it was obvious that the end was near. If the club isn't prepared for that, that's on the club not the employee. All one can blame him for is having a level of influence at the club - but the guy is the most successful manager of all time. Him having influence could actually be used in the club's favour. Listen to what he thinks, what can be done to solve the mess and while no one is asking you to follow it word to word, but surely you'll learn something in his company

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Marwood said:

You don't have to apologise for disagreeing, it's what the forum is about.

I've never agreed with LvG or Mourinho not being responsible for their transfers. No manager gets their first choice every time but that's no reason to be outright awful in your choice of incomings.

The sheer number of useless players those two(and yes the club) lumbered us with is crazy. Taken years to move them on amd the job still isn't done.

I didn't mention anything about transfers under Ole. Think you've got me mixed up with someone else.

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devilish said:

You're right to an extent. Sure, a young manager would struggle to change his style. However you'd expect more from a manager whose been around for ages. SAF for example adapted to the squad he had. His last squad was built on a cynical and rather defensive style of football which contrasts greatly to the breath taking and creative style used by the treble winning side.

Regarding SAF, well, he was Manchester United or to be more specific, the football side of Manchester United. SAF could rescind his resignation letter in the eleventh hour making the club look like fools in front of a manager who was set to be signed as his replacement or go toe to toe against the club's major shareholders and win. Someone like him simply refused to have overheads which is fair enough considering his talent and experience. However, surely, he must have noticed that his time was close to an end and that the responsible way to leave the club was to have everything set for the next manager to come in and succeed. That means a top sporting director, a DOF, and a competitive squad.

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