So, apologies if I'm misunderstanding you, but you're saying that the Qatari state has zero responsibility for what goes on in terms of labour practices on their own soil? It's all on the companies involved?
Boycott The Qatar World Cup?
- Thread starter OldSchoolManc
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Hypocrites and those who want to have the moral high-ground tend to deflect proof of double standards by accusing others of whatabout-isms.
That's why the rest of the world - generally non-confrontational by nature - continue to take it in their stride. Besides, political theatre rarely solve major issues.
That's why the rest of the world - generally non-confrontational by nature - continue to take it in their stride. Besides, political theatre rarely solve major issues.
What are you talking about? It's not a case of having double standards. It's a case of actively condemning the treatment of migrant workers. Are you saying you don't see anything wrong with the Qatari world cup preparations?
No. Of course, the regime in Qatar bears some responsibility. But the issue is just as complex as the rest of the issues brought up here.
And the posters in here ignoring the complexity and trying to make this WC look like the worst sporting event ever, and again trying to put the blame for that exclusively on the Qatari state/population (while jamming up all sorts of excuses for Western regimes/actors) is the pinnacle of double standards.
You are right. Western regimes should be allowed to torture civilians, massacre kids and we have to shut the ** about it. Mentioning it is not cool.
This particular World Cup has been a farce from day 1, it should never have been awarded to Qatar and stinks of corruption. I won't be watching it.
Some people seem to think invading and destroying a country, and bombing plenty other countries in a specific area won't have an effect on the area as a whole as long as that specific area hasn't been touched.
It's like France getting invaded, Spain getting bombed and expecting no effects in Portugal, just going to live life completely normal. Events in the Middle East shape the regimes he loves to talk about. Unfortunately the West is the main driving force behind the changes and the goings on in the Middle East. I'm sure he won't like it being mentioned that the regimes he despises were put there by the West themselves. Like how the British convinced the Saud family to rebel against the Ottomans and then once the Ottoman empire fell made the first Saud, king of Saudi Arabia. Or how the British once leaving the Gulf countries in the 70s-80s put certain families in power.
But I don't want to derail the subject at hand. How Qatar treated the migrant labourers is bad enough, and discussing recent (since the 1900s) Western Influence in the Middle East will take days, months and even years.
But, again, what does the Iraq war have to do with labour conditions and the World Cup in Qatar? It seems to be being used as some weird sort of apologist deflection. Also, saying that the regime in Qatar bears 'some responsibility' seems to be downplaying it slightly. Unless you're saying that the Qatari regime doesn't have the ability to control what goes on within its borders as far as labour laws go. Yes, companies should be more ethical but the state is letting them get away with it and, ultimately, the state is the one hosting the tournament and spending absurd amounts of money to do so. The buck has to stop with them.
I'm not justifying Qatar's actions, I was just pointing out double standards as I mentioned in the last page. How similar problems were happening in Brazil and Russia but there was no media outrage and independent, undercover investigations on those 2 World Cups.
I for one, don't remember a boycott Russia WC thread in the caf in 2018. It was more of a it's coming home vibe. That is of course despite this:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/07/13/russias-bloody-world-cup
It is not called whataboutery, its called double standards. You cant be picky morally depending on the country or race.
Who's being picky? I absolutely condemn the Iraq invasion. I just don't think it has anything to do with the Qatar World Cup and is certainly not a reason to stop people condemning the Qatari state for their handling of the event. To say 'well you can't condemn Qatar for this because of the Iraq war' is illogical and just plain dumb.
Any human rights violations are indefensible...you'll get no arguments from me there. That said, they seem more widespread and on a much grander scale this time around. I agree that they should have been more broadly reported in Russia, absolutely, but it doesn't stop what's happening in Qatar from being shitty and people should absolutely continue to call it out as such.
If a government is handed a prestigious event to hold, YES I WILL LOOK AT THE NEAR HISTORY of this government and the blood on their hands. You miss the point again, it is not condemning the qatari here we have problem with (that is rightfully logical). It is the selectivity in the moral judgment, IF you think human rights are important, then you must have problem with these countries (RUSSIA, UK, USA) holding these events, not only Qatar.
You're trying to have an argument with me over something I'm not saying. Your hysterical caps screech makes no sense to me...which government are you talking about here? Qatar?
Yes, I do have an issue with any country holding an event if human rights are infringed during their preparation for the event. What are you arguing about?
You can condemn Qatar. It is the right thing to do. But when you condemn Qatar while at the same time defending the western regimes wholeheartedly, then it is going to be called out for what it is. Hypocrisy.
It is not about the invasion and destruction of Iraq. Funny you are still calling it "Iraq war", that's poor semantics. It is not about the kids starved to death in Yemen as we speak, with the regimes in the US and the UK among others, empowering KSA in its despicable crimes there. It is not about any specific subject. It is the whole picture.
But maybe you voiced your anger back in 2005 when the government of Tony Blair was awarded the organization of the 2012 Olympics with no scrutiny into its HR record.
Maybe. Absolute rulers like these can probably do whatever they want. Even though most of these big firms building the stadiums would have won their billions $ contracts thanks to some lobbying from western democracies. And that would give them enough power to push back unwarranted state regulation.
IMO the Qatari state doesn't want to reform the labor laws seriously. The classic Thatcherism that all the GCC countries follow tells us that more regulation and more taxes would make working in Qatar unattractive. If a bigger share of the pie was going to safety and to taxes, the migrant workers from Bangladesh would clear less money and might prefer other destinations. Leaving the country with unbearable workforce shortages.
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Who's defending western regimes wholeheartedly? I'm certainly not...the west has done some absolutely awful things for a variety of dreadful reasons. You won't get any arguments from me there.
'Iraq war' is shorthand for that particular invasion...pull me up on semantics if you want but it smacks as petty, point scoring pedantry. If we're going down that route, though, it's Tony Blair not Toni.
As for the 2012 Olympics, I must have missed all of the migrant labourer deaths and human rights abuses perpetrated to make that happen. Can you link me to that? Or are you saying that the UK should have been allowed to host the Olympics because of foreign policy decisions totally unrelated to the games?
Glad to see that you acknowledge condemning Qatar is the right thing to do, though. That's a start.
Tens of thousands enter, or attempt to enter the UK and USA every year in search of human rights protections. Might I add, predominantly from the region you seem so keen to defend.
Are you seriously equating the human rights records in Qatar with those of the US and UK?
In which case, something doesn’t add up?
This WC, together with City and Newcastle, just shows these dictator's strategy works perfectly. The amount of people defending this bs says it all, it's working so they'll keep doing it until we all live in a permanent state of whataboutism.
Everyone who owns a phone or a pair of sneakers is an hypocrite blah blah blah... sot tiring.
Everyone who owns a phone or a pair of sneakers is an hypocrite blah blah blah... sot tiring.
amazing is it not?
It really is. Why can't people just say "look I love football, so I can't imagine not watching the WC"? I mean we all do it, it's really impossible to live our lives being 100% ethical all the time. I can't go into deep research every time I want to buy an appliance or clothing. It's just the way it is.
But no, suddenly people are construction experts and are digging examples of workers who sadly passed away in western countries to justify qatari practices. What the feck?
Regardless of the missteps we all do as consumers, we should still be able to call a spade a spade: this WC was bought by a terrible regime to whitewash their image and FIFA didn't give a shit, in fact, they accepetd several illegalities to make it happen. We should all be angry at this, regardless of whether we'll watch it in the end or not.
Well I can't and wouldn't tell people to shut the feck up about something like that. But to be honest it isn't cool to mention it in a thread that has nothing to do with it, is it?
Obviously any government shouldn't be allowed to torture people or massacre children. But I imagine if I started a thread on here to discuss, raise awareness or criticize any particular atrocity carried out by a western power there wouldn't be people immediately jumping in with whataboutisms about other bad (yet totally unrelated shit) to muddy the waters and in the process derail any meaningful discussion on the subject at hand. And yet it happens in pretty much every thread that is in any way negative towards a Middle Eastern regime.
And just for context I come from a part of the world that has had people tortured and children killed by the military actions of a Western Power. And on a personal level my family has lost a young member in an atrocity.
Yeah they have mastered it, and people gobble it up hook line and sinker. Then regurgitate it at every opportunity.
I'm with Eric, I won't be watching it. No interest in supporting a despot regime in their attempts to whitewash their actions.
Why do we need a get out of jail card? You got to a final in the summer and you brought shame on your entire nation with the cave man behaviour of your fans. You also got to the final with a relatively easy route and fell apart when you actually met a good team. Lot more good teams in the world cup. So between your fans and average team we will keep the get out of jail card in our pockets as it wont be needed.
Well it's true. Things aren't so black and white in life.
And Eric, while you're at it why don't you boycott France ? The amount of death and brutality it took to enjoy your modern day France would put anything qataris did to shame.
You can condemn Qatar and boycott it as well. Just don't want people rolling their eyes when others point out hypocrisy of taking the moral high ground.
Are these numbers checked ?
I'm still not seeing where the hypocrisy is? I condemn human rights abuses wherever I see them, regardless of the perpetrator. So how can that be hypocrisy?
@shamans you're the guy jumping out of the well in that famous meme.
Because you own a phone. Obviously. Did you think about those poor children being exploited in africa so those batteries are made? No? Then you can't criticise anything else. Ever.
Mental 'logic', isn't it?! I'm not sure why some are taking criticism of human rights abuses so personally.
I’m pretty sure less leagues get disrupted than they would if it was in July. But you might just be referring to the leagues that interest you.
Professional sport is exactly that,a profession,a business,a big business when it comes to football.May as well boycott all professional sport,at least stop supporting it with your hard earned in anyway you can from Sky sports to match day tickets.
It's why it works so well doing the whitewashing through football. People defend this bs like they defend their clubs, even when deep down they know they're wrong.
Any death is unfortunate and sad, but the number is manipulated by the guardian report for a reason, in the headline they failed to mention that the numbers of deaths are for workers passing away from any cause not only deaths in in construction sites, deaths from natural causes like heart attacks or even road accidents. In fact from 2m workers in Qatar a third is working in a world cup/ infra structure related job. The report states that the deaths are taken for workers from 5 Asian countries. For example India have 500,000 workers in Qatar and reported the death of 2711 Indian workers in Qatar in the period of 10 years, that is about 271 deaths per 500,000 per year
here is what the indian government said about the numbers:
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33019838
In the UK dies 0.74 person per 1000 between the age of 20-44 that means for 500,000 people it is 370 person per year (The number is off course higher for only males) which is higher than the numbers in Qatar itself.
This is the guardian report
https://www.theguardian.com/global-...grant-worker-deaths-qatar-fifa-world-cup-2022
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Would this wc till be a thing if those thousands of dead workers didn't come from poor countries. No names, no faces, no wall to wall coverage, no families rich enough to sue anyone.
I'd be completely indifferent if not for the fact that Denmark are so damn good at the moment. We may never get a better shot at going deep in the draw again in my lifetime.
His points are valid but the hypocrisy surrounding it reek of a phobia for anything that comes from the Middle East (an offshoot of Islamaphobia really).
Being morally outraged about the code of ethics - or lack thereof - in certain parts of the world, yet being sponsored by/wearing shirts emblazoned with the insignia of corporations profiteering off of sweatshops, practically starving local communities (see a very popular cola drinks behaviour in India) is very in vogue these days.
Those who raucously applaud him, yet remain eerily silent on violations of other states/corporations must sleep so well with their holier than thou passive racism.
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He's spot on TBF.
Sorry but Fearless already tried that in the Palestine thread, you'll have to try a new one. People can criticize governments without being racist, you know?
His points are valid but the hypocrisy surrounding it reek of a phobia for anything that comes from the Middle East (an offshoot of Islamaphobia really).
Being morally outraged about the code of ethics - or lack thereof - in certain parts of the world, yet being sponsored by/wearing shirts emblazoned with the insignia of corporations profiteering off of sweatshops, practically starving local communities (see a very popular cola drinks behaviour in India) is very in vogue these days, particularly on this forum.
I'm sure those of you raucously applauding him sleep much easier knowing you're of such sound character, while at the same time being passive racists.
Passive racists? That's a pretty big accusation...care to back it up?
His points are valid but the hypocrisy surrounding it reek of a phobia for anything that comes from the Middle East (an offshoot of Islamaphobia really).
Being morally outraged about the code of ethics - or lack thereof - in certain parts of the world, yet being sponsored by/wearing shirts emblazoned with the insignia of corporations profiteering off of sweatshops, practically starving local communities (see a very popular cola drinks behaviour in India) is very in vogue these days, particularly on this forum.
I'm sure those of you raucously applauding him sleep much easier knowing you're of such sound character, while at the same time being passive racists.