Tactical fouling

Good point. I thought that too, after seeing the first goal conceded vs Villa. Fred should be getting carded rather than sticking his left leg out and fecking falling over.

It all down to game management though.

bond19821982 said:

Why aren't we doing it very often ?

Matic is the only who does that . We should have done it against Villa when Mings cut through our midfield for their goal, we should have done it today around 30th minute on a counter attack, when a cross field ball.was played straight to Toney and DDg saved it.

Tactical fouls save goals. Do we have any stats on how do we compare against other teams ?

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When we do them we get booked.

Matic made his first foul at the weekend against Villa with a nothing foul on the touchline and the crowd bought him a yellow card for it.

Matic showed his experience in those last minutes with the tactical foul, footballing intelligence and as you say, most teams use it perfectly.

Stobzilla said:

When we do them we get booked.

Matic made his first foul at the weekend against Villa with a nothing foul on the touchline and the crowd bought him a yellow card for it.

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that was based on accumulative fouls conceded by us, there’s being cute and there is being downright stupid……which is what most of our players tend to do.

Experience.

This is Luke Shaw’s forte

‘Taking one for the team’.
As much a part of the game as ‘taking a ball to the corner flag’ to see out the last minutes.

There was a moment I think in the first half where Brentford had a break on, one their players ran past one of our with the ball, if it was city or pool or several other teams the Brentford player would've been nudged over on the edge of his own area, but instead we allowed him free...in the end no damage done, but its little moments like that where we just aren't cute enough..

OL29 said:

This is Luke Shaw’s forte

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Absolutely. Good shout.

Cause we actually get booked for it when we do it.

We've never been very good at it. I thought we'd get better at it under Jose.

Though nothing tops Rooney's attempt at it, when he tried to clip Stewart Downing's heels, but he kicked too high, ended up kicking him up the arse, and got a straight red.

OnlyTwoDaSilvas said:

We've never been very good at it. I thought we'd get better at it under Jose.

Though nothing tops Rooney's attempt at it, when he tried to clip Stewart Downing's heels, but he kicked too high, ended up kicking him up the arse, and got a straight red.

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Rooney really was one of a kind

Remember what Fergie told Ole for his red card?

Stobzilla said:

When we do them we get booked.

Matic made his first foul at the weekend against Villa with a nothing foul on the touchline and the crowd bought him a yellow card for it.

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We don't do it smartly enough.

Matic let the guy get passed him, then grabbed him by the shirt and pulled him down .That's always a slam dunk yellow.

City and liverpool do it with quick trips that look innocent, they don't get grabby. Refs hate grabbing and it's something we always seem to do.

Fake going for the ball before they fully get it under control and into your half, and you're usually OK to get away with a few.

Galactic said:

Remember what Fergie told Ole for his red card?

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That was just a hack and a rightful red card. You can be more subtle and just get a yellow.

I‘m amazed in a lot of game the opposition make several rough challenges and then a United player gets booked after 1 foul, honestly looks like our players are held to higher standards.

Stobzilla said:

When we do them we get booked.

Matic made his first foul at the weekend against Villa with a nothing foul on the touchline and the crowd bought him a yellow card for it.

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Yeah this is it. We talk about the ABU media, but I think generally we underestimate how the (often subconscious) dislike for us that runs through most of English football affects us on the pitch. We're held to a different standard across the board, it's rarely more obvious than when our players pick up bookings for challenges players at media darling clubs like Pep's City and Klopp's Liverpool get away with 3-4 times a game.

It's also how you react after it. Apart from Bruno, most of our players accept that they have fouled, so it's easier for the ref to show them a yellow. On the contrary, you will see players attempting to kill someone and then protest like they are Spartacus or MLK.

jeff_goldblum said:

Yeah this is it. We talk about the ABU media, but I think generally we underestimate how the (often subconscious) dislike for us that runs through most of English football affects us on the pitch. We're held to a different standard across the board, it's rarely more obvious than when our players pick up bookings for challenges players at media darling clubs like Pep's City and Klopp's Liverpool get away with 3-4 times a game.

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Nah i'm not believing this at all. There's been plenty of talk in the press about them doing it.

We just simply do it in a stupid way. Watch the fouls we give and they're always from the wrong position, tugging with arms.

https://theathletic.com/3459766/202...hester-city-premier-league-fouls-yellow-card/

What we all have witnessed, speculated and generally, agreed upon is now backed by data. Last season in the PL, City are top for fouls conceded per yellow (7.5) and Liverpool are 3rd with 7. Curiously, Watford are second in the table. As expected, United being tactically naïve are 15th in the this table. I first noticed fouling as a tactic in Pep's Barca though it took a while to reach the PL. But looking at City and Liverpool from a critical lens, it is fairly obvious how their pressing is dependent upon these clever fouls which avoid bookings even if it is a blatant attempt to stop a counter. But we've reached a point where something has to give. Either the referees wise up to this tactic or other teams will adopt it too resulting in a game which is much more stop-start in nature.

After the Atletico game last season, I wondered how much more entertaining football would be if players got a time-limited send-off for these professional fouls, e.g. pulling the shirt to stop a counter etc.

If players were sent off for 2-5 mins for a tactical foul, I think we would see less of them and thereby more chances and more goals. Thoughts?

I mentioned this in the Maguire thread but Eriksen has to foul Traore for Fulham's winner.

Maguire also should be able to foul him, but he hamstrung himself by picking up a needless yellow card in the first half.

One thing that frustrates me more than anything is our players picking up a completely avoidable yellow, particularly early in the game. It completely changes the dynamic of the game, as they have to reduce their aggression in any duels from that point and are often scared to make any sort of tackle at all, which means the opposition have a field day playing against us. But most importantly, it removes that players ability to make a tactical foul when we need them to. People will analyse the goal we conceded in the last minute and they won't even make the connection to the first half challenge from Maguire, but that stupid challenge has lead to us conceding because he's now missed the most obvious tactical foul opportunity you're ever going to see.

I'd go as far as saying that 90% of the yellow cards we pick up should be deliberate. Any yellows for dissent, kicking the ball away, reckless challenges, aggressively diving into 50/50s and going to ground when there's no reason, are completely and utterly pointless. The yellows we should be receiving should be in the 2nd half of games with deliberate intent to stop dangerous attacks at the expense of a booking.

We have quite a few headless players operating at half distances. That will bring in quite a few yellows

davbon said:

After the Atletico game last season, I wondered how much more entertaining football would be if players got a time-limited send-off for these professional fouls, e.g. pulling the shirt to stop a counter etc.

If players were sent off for 2-5 mins for a tactical foul, I think we would see less of them and thereby more chances and more goals. Thoughts?

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Wow this guy predicted the blue card 2 years ago!

Most of our yellows are down to both poor defensive structure, and our players not proactively reading the game and thus ending up in a situation where they find themselves having to make a risky tackle.

I was annoyed at Eriksen not doing it in the 6-3 game against City last year near half time (think it resulted in City's fourth goal) and he could have done it against Fulham looking at the highlights. Maguire could have done better even if he was on a yellow card already but I don't see why Eriksen couldn't have stopped the break earlier than that.

Whilst not a fan of tactical fouling, it is a sign of game management and game intelligence so kinds of rules out our players from doing it

Irwin99 said:

I was annoyed at Eriksen not doing it in the 6-3 game against City last year near half time (think it resulted in City's fourth goal) and he could have done it against Fulham looking at the highlights. Maguire could have done better even if he was on a yellow card already but I don't see why Eriksen couldn't have stopped the break earlier than that.

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Yep. Stupid to allow Fulham (especially Traore) to counter there. Stupid team we are.

I was thinking this for a long time. If there's even a whiff of any threat, kick em in the shins. It's what City and Liverpool do and it's actually their first line of defense. They are so good at it that they don't even get booked often.

Stop trying to be the nice guys.

spiriticon said:

I was thinking this for a long time. If there's even a whiff of any threat, kick em in the shins. It's what City and Liverpool do and it's actually their first line of defense. They are so good at it that they don't even get booked often.

Stop trying to be the nice guys.

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Kicking people in the shins isn’t a tactical foul. That’s an actual, sanctionable foul which usually brings a free kick.

Clever tactical fouling is basically a collection of barges/subtle shirt pulls/blocking runners/hustling opposition ball carriers in numbers to start transitions etc which fall in the grey area of ‘contact sport’ and place a doubt in the referee’s mind re blowing his whistle.

It’s what clever, modern, high pressing, attack-focussed, aggressive teams do which is why city and Liverpool top that list. It allows them to ball-hog with an ultra high-line just outside the opposition box thus maximising chances and simultaneously stopping counterattacks.

It’s a world away from the old fashioned simeone and mourinho style which is all about niggly continuous fouling as a means of shithousing the opponent and creating frustration.

Our players are too stupid.
Our manager is too clueless.

the fact that City and Liverpool average seven fouls per yellow tells you it is something that works in the modern game but you need an influential coach and smart players to pull it off.

Some of the defending high up the pitch before Fulham counters was absolutely criminal.

el_loco_bielsa said:

Kicking people in the shins isn’t a tactical foul. That’s an actual, sanctionable foul which usually brings a free kick.

Clever tactical fouling is basically a collection of barges/subtle shirt pulls/blocking runners/hustling opposition ball carriers in numbers to start transitions etc which fall in the grey area of ‘contact sport’ and place a doubt in the referee’s mind re blowing his whistle.

It’s what clever, modern, high pressing, attack-focussed, aggressive teams do which is why city and Liverpool top that list. It allows them to ball-hog with an ultra high-line just outside the opposition box thus maximising chances and simultaneously stopping counterattacks.

It’s a world away from the old fashioned simeone and mourinho style which is all about niggly continuous fouling as a means of shithousing the opponent and creating frustration.

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I'd love someone to explain why the bolded isn't demonized as much as the tactical fouling this thread was created for.

el_loco_bielsa said:

Kicking people in the shins isn’t a tactical foul. That’s an actual, sanctionable foul which usually brings a free kick.

Clever tactical fouling is basically a collection of barges/subtle shirt pulls/blocking runners/hustling opposition ball carriers in numbers to start transitions etc which fall in the grey area of ‘contact sport’ and place a doubt in the referee’s mind re blowing his whistle.

It’s what clever, modern, high pressing, attack-focussed, aggressive teams do which is why city and Liverpool top that list. It allows them to ball-hog with an ultra high-line just outside the opposition box thus maximising chances and simultaneously stopping counterattacks.

It’s a world away from the old fashioned simeone and mourinho style which is all about niggly continuous fouling as a means of shithousing the opponent and creating frustration.

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Yep, it’s why I’ve been so ready for referees to get far more liberal with carding the fouls you mentioned far more. These teams that have mastered pressing have done so because they also mastered these seemingly innocent fouls in the opposition half right as a team is about to break, and it just further minimizes the risk that you’d normally associate with playing an ultra high line. I don’t like that the game has become such a pressing fest so much so that it’s one of the main things clubs have to look for in attackers apart from actual ability to score/create.

Its creates a game that’s just a constant choppy midfield battle for control and limits the game so much even if its extremely effective.

Didnt this just used to be known as a professional foul?

It's hard to tactical foul when you have our sluggish players trying to defend huge spaces due to tactics.

Valencia Shin Crosses said:

Yep, it’s why I’ve been so ready for referees to get far more liberal with carding the fouls you mentioned far more. These teams that have mastered pressing have done so because they also mastered these seemingly innocent fouls in the opposition half right as a team is about to break, and it just further minimizes the risk that you’d normally associate with playing an ultra high line. I don’t like that the game has become such a pressing fest so much so that it’s one of the main things clubs have to look for in attackers apart from actual ability to score/create.

Its creates a game that’s just a constant choppy midfield battle for control and limits the game so much even if its extremely effective.

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I don't see how you can. Like you said, they are seemingly innocent fouls, and if you start carding those fouls, you'd have to card nearly every foul on the pitch.

adexkola said:

I don't see how you can. Like you said, they are seemingly innocent fouls, and if you start carding those fouls, you'd have to card nearly every foul on the pitch.

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Yeah I guess the answer is “getting better referee’s that can discern between the two” but we all know that won’t happen.

Just frustrating to watch because there should be a level of risk with pushing 10 men into the opposition half. But with Rodri and company able to scythe you down if you play perfect one touch stuff from your own box around them it’s not really as risky as it might seem, especially with keepers all sweeping nowadays as well.

Bruno has more fouls than Rodri/any City player this season from a similar number of games so the idea we don't foul enough is a fairly weak theory.

The simple fact of the matter is we struggle because we badly lack physicality, we're too slow, too weak and not aggressive enough across the board