Jurriën Timber | Arsenal player

Status
Not open for further replies.

RedEM10

Sweaty Foot Monster
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
1,654
I really doubt people like Mark Goldbridge have sources or people that will tell him stuff like this.
I'm not his biggest fan but I always think it's stupid of him to come out with a statement so certain unless he has some sort of idea.


He looks a complete idiot if it doesn't happen. He's not playing to the masses by saying some interest etc. He is point blank saying this will happen.

We will see I suppose but I'll take it today and enjoy it :lol:
 

Adam-Utd

Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
39,954
He looks a complete idiot if it doesn't happen.
As opposed to any other normal day?

What you don't understand is that for somebody like him, any PR is good. if people are talking about him whether good or bad, it gets his name out and brings in viewers.

There is no chance he has an ITK dutch source ffs.
 

nainaisson

Full Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2016
Messages
1,511
Location
Phantom Zone
Mark Goldbridge live on YouTube this morning just said he has spoken to someone today and confirmed "this deal will happen"

Personal stuff sorted and timber has agreed just the other stuff to get done ✅
"Goldbridge" is a pathological liar. He started out by lying that he was an actual journalist, which he has since apologized for, but he's still apparently pretending to be one.
 

Kostov

Full Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2017
Messages
9,399
Location
Skopje, Macedonia
I think a short CB like this kid is a disaster in the PL. Look at Liverpool's CBs, the are frightening to play against. Imagine Mitrovic against this lad next year, he will eat him for breakfast.
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
12,555
I'm not his biggest fan but I always think it's stupid of him to come out with a statement so certain unless he has some sort of idea.


He looks a complete idiot if it doesn't happen. He's not playing to the masses by saying some interest etc. He is point blank saying this will happen.

We will see I suppose but I'll take it today and enjoy it :lol:
Its quite funny because if it doesn't happen, he will blame the club for not making it happen as a backtracking measure.

"I was told it was agreed, but the Glazers didn't want to pay the transfer fee"
 

DWelbz19

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Messages
33,745
Yeah the guy who wasn't a preferred option later on down the line and got sold even though he wasn't in decline and we had nobody better skilled.
Yeah the guy who we still haven’t actually replaced with a comprehensively better CB to win us silverware again, sold by a dinosaur of a manager who it turned out didn’t really know what he was doing anymore
 

Relevated

fixated with venom and phalluses
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
25,995
Location
18M1955/JU5
Yeah the guy who we still haven’t actually replaced with a comprehensively better CB to win us silverware again, sold by a dinosaur of a manager who it turned out didn’t really know what he was doing anymore
It's not a dinosaur mentality to want a CB who is tall :lol: don't force a false narrative bro
 

syrian_scholes

Honorary Straw Hat
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
13,979
Location
Houston
Mark Goldbridge live on YouTube this morning just said he has spoken to someone today and confirmed "this deal will happen"

Personal stuff sorted and timber has agreed just the other stuff to get done ✅
He said the same for Sancho the season before he joined, the dude is a massive bullshitter, he even admitted to lying for views.
 

CloneMC16

Full Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2021
Messages
4,390
Buying a 5'10" CB sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. I hope I'm wrong. As good as he maybe on the ball, him getting bullied is what worries me. Gotta trust in ETH, I guess.
 

The Corinthian

I will not take Mad Winger's name in vain
Joined
Dec 10, 2020
Messages
11,465
Buying a 5'10" CB sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. I hope I'm wrong. As good as he maybe on the ball, him getting bullied is what worries me. Gotta trust in ETH, I guess.
Maguire is 6’4 and has been disaster that did happen.
 

sullydnl

Ross Kemp's caf ID
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
34,063
I think a short CB like this kid is a disaster in the PL. Look at Liverpool's CBs, the are frightening to play against. Imagine Mitrovic against this lad next year, he will eat him for breakfast.
Stylistically City are probably the more relevant comparison for the type of defence we're looking to build rather than Liverpool. I wouldn't have said the likes of Laporte, Stones and Dias are quite as imposing as the Liverpool CBs, yet they have the better defence nonetheless.
 

Dominos

Full Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
6,959
Location
Manchester
It’s never ideal to be undersized as a CB because it’s a seemingly obvious weakness and inlet to attack, but the reality is the more important things for short CB’s is their understanding of their own bodies and limitations. Generally,*great* short CB’s are athletic marvels with tremendous compensatory leaps and immaculate timing and reading of the game and when and when not to contest bigger men aerially: Passarella; Cannavaro; Baresi; B.Wright; Ayala; Cordoba; Puyol; not one of them would people say were deficient aerially, in fact, to a man they were praised for their ‘surprising’ aerial prowess, but you don’t even have to look at those in that tier; players like Heinze, Mascherano; Bruce all of whom read the flight of crosses and the timings and in the moment snapshot superbly well, in fact Heinze and Bruce immediately go to the conversation of best aerial defenders United have ever had, such was their brilliance in any kind of aerial contest.

Point is, it’s not height that’s ruinous; it’s understanding and pre-emptive actions - you better be doubly good at reading play and positioning yourself if you’re short, is the point, so in and of itself, what needs to be asked about Timber as a CB is how good is he actually at being a defender? What are his defensive fundamentals like and does he use his immense physical attributes in unison with a good, core understanding of defensive actions? It’s not height that is the downfall; it’s being shit at defending, where a shorter CB has to be even more honed in the craft than taller ones.

Timber’s height wouldn’t determine anything in the PL; he’d just be exposed as a poor CB if constantly outdone in aerial duels.

Anyway, I still don’t know why the notion is he comes here just to be a CB when his eclectic nature really primes him for more adventurous roles, especially so with our gaping holes and need for players in multiple positions.

What can also happen is start the guy wide so he gets a feel for the league and the lay of the land, and then slowly integrate him to central positions. That can be after an outright RB comes in; it certainly doesn’t have to be: buy, throw in at the deep end.

But yeah, height is not a reason to avoid a CB unless he’s pint-sized, which Timber isn’t as he’s no shorter than Heinze or Puyol who were famed for their aggression and robustness over practically anyone active at the time they were playing.
I keep going back to this, it's not just that he's short, his aerial stats are bad. Bottom 9th percentile in the Dutch league compared to other CB's for % aerial duels won (if I'm reading them correctly). So I'm not even sure you could say he's good in the air for his height.

A lot of the shorter centre backs listed played in decades gone by, never played in the Premier league, or were protected by their teams dominance (e.g. Mascherano at Barca). Heinze was also primarily a full back for us and only played CB for emergency injury cover (same way likes of Neville had to do so occasionally).

I mean, would Mascherano ever have been a successful centre back at Liverpool before he joined Barca? Almost certainly not in my opinion.
 
Last edited:

DWelbz19

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Messages
33,745
It's not a dinosaur mentality to want a CB who is tall :lol: don't force a false narrative bro
I’m talking about Jose. You referenced Daley Blind, as if his height held him back, which was a poor reference because:
1. The last 3 trophies this club won was with him in the team; and
2. We are yet to replace him with a CB who has been comprehensively better than him.

Is being short a detriment to playing well at CB? Yeah, generally speaking. But I was picking on the point that referencing Blind as an example to buff your point was wrong (because it is). I’m not speaking on any narratives, bro
 

CloneMC16

Full Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2021
Messages
4,390
Maguire is 6’4 and has been disaster that did happen.
Obviously just being tall isn't enough. You can be tall, handle yourself physically against the more physical strikers in the league, while also being comfortable on the ball. That's what I think we need. I hope Timber is great, either way.
 

Dominos

Full Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
6,959
Location
Manchester
Stylistically City are probably the more relevant comparison for the type of defence we're looking to build rather than Liverpool. I wouldn't have said the likes of Laporte, Stones and Dias are quite as imposing as the Liverpool CBs, yet they have the better defence nonetheless.
Liverpool's centre backs could all play for City no problem to be fair, they're all good on the ball and good all round defenders.

And there's a difference between not being the most physical CB in the world and being 5ft10 and bottom 9th percentile in the Dutch league CB's for aerial duels %
 

The Corinthian

I will not take Mad Winger's name in vain
Joined
Dec 10, 2020
Messages
11,465
Obviously just being tall isn't enough. You can be tall, handle yourself physically against the more physical strikers in the league, while also being comfortable on the ball. That's what I think we need. I hope Timber is great, either way.
Of course. I think 5’10 is a decent height for a CB. A poster mentioned above that City’s defence aren’t physically imposing and I agree. Dias is built like a brick shit house, but Laporte, Stones, Ake, Cancelo aren’t physically imposing defenders, but are still excellent defenders (I left Walker out as he is physically athletic).

One position that helps City’s defence immeasurably is having a world class holding midfielder in Rodri just ahead. Nailing that position is also key.
 

goptun

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 15, 2021
Messages
253
Jesus Christ, the revisionism surrounding Daley Blind is astounding. He was fairly useful for a short period and covered well during an injury crisis, but it doesn't go much beyond that. The fact that he's been one of the less tragic defenders we've had since Fergie means incredibly little, it just speaks to how poor United has been in terms of recruitment and performance.

Regardless, it sounds like one of Timber's attributes is his physicality and mobility. Two things which Blind lacked in abundance, the latter of which was often to his and our detriment whenever he played.
 

Bojan Djordjic

Full Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2018
Messages
1,649
Lots of great forwards who were great in the air were not that tall. They managed to get by with positioning, movement and timing. I think it shouldn't be that different for CBs either

Ajax's defensive record this season is very good, so Timber's lack of height can't have been much of a problem there
People keep making this argument and using examples of small people that are good in the air. It’s not relevant because we know he isn’t good in the air and he’s coming to the most physical, athletic league in the world. Lots of reasons to think the signing might be a good idea, mainly having a passing/carrying profile that is better than virtually any other defender on the planet.

However, he’s straight up weak in the air and we’ve seen how AWB and Lindelof have been ruthlessly targeted in the air even though both are stronger in aerial duels than Timber. Progressing the ball is a huge skill but he’s going to find it comes back a lot quicker than it did at Ajax because of the paucity of our midfield.
 

goptun

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 15, 2021
Messages
253
Of course. I think 5’10 is a decent height for a CB. A poster mentioned above that City’s defence aren’t physically imposing and I agree. Dias is built like a brick shit house, but Laporte, Stones, Ake, Cancelo aren’t physically imposing defenders, but are still excellent defenders (I left Walker out as he is physically athletic).

One position that helps City’s defence immeasurably is having a world class holding midfielder in Rodri just ahead. Nailing that position is also key.
For a fullback, Cancelo is physically imposing - he's 6 ft. He was outjumping Chris Wood in aerial battles the other week, so he's definitely able to impose himself.
 

The Corinthian

I will not take Mad Winger's name in vain
Joined
Dec 10, 2020
Messages
11,465
For a fullback, Cancelo is physically imposing - he's 6 ft. He was outjumping Chris Wood in aerial battles the other week, so he's definitely able to impose himself.
I think all the defenders I mentioned are able to impose themselves. The point I’m making is that Cancelo’s physicality is secondary to his other qualities. Dias has both the technical abilities as well as being built and physically dominating.
 

Fortitude

TV/Monitor Expert
Scout
Joined
Jul 10, 2004
Messages
22,409
Location
Inside right
We're shit at getting decent fees for our players unfortunately. You have to consider the players we sell mean they have to be replaced.

We let go of Bailly, Jones, Tuanzebe, AWB, Henderson that means we need to bring in a right back, centre back, and goalkeeper.

That's in addition to the signings we need in midfield in attack.

I keep going back to this, it's not just that he's short, his aerial stats are bad. Bottom 9th percentile in the Dutch league compared to other CB's for % aerial duels won (if I'm reading them correctly). So I'm not even sure you could say he's good in the air for his height.

A lot of the shorter centre backs listed played in decades gone by, never played in the Premier league, or were protected by their teams dominance (e.g. Mascherano at Barca). Heinze was also primarily a full back for us and only played CB for emergency injury cover (same way likes of Neville had to do so occasionally).

I mean, would Mascherano ever have been a successful centre back at Liverpool before he joined Barca? Almost certainly not in my opinion.
If he’s bad in the air then that’s another issue, which is why fundamentals are so important in the assessment for short CB’s.

There are so many nuances to this discussion in terms of ways shorter players can really disrupt taller players without even jumping for the ball. If we had a league full of Drogba’s, Duncan Ferguson’s and any other bigger forwards who were then exceptional in the air on top of that, it’d be a bigger issue, but as it stands, the PL isn’t some behemoth when it comes to the aerial game anymore; in and of itself it isn’t the issue, but if we’re talking about a poor, short aerial defender, it’s a completely different story especially so if he hasn’t mastered the arts of crossing over/under his man and completely ruining his attempted leaps for the ball or even his chance to get a clean head on it.
 

sullydnl

Ross Kemp's caf ID
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
34,063
Liverpool's centre backs could all play for City no problem to be fair, they're all good on the ball and good all round defenders.

And there's a difference between not being the most physical CB in the world and being 5ft10 and bottom 9th percentile in the Dutch league CB's for aerial duels %
Dias was in the bottom 28th percentile for aerial duels won this season and he doesn't have the excuse of being a still-developing 20 year old, or of being 5ft 10. Yet City still had the best defence while carrying that apparent weakness.

And for all that Timber may have ranked so low within his own league, that didn't stop Ajax from having by far the best defence there either, even as he was partnered with a CB who was shorter again than he is which obviously wouldn't be the case here.

Aerial ability in isolation clearly isn't the be all and all in these set-ups. If it was, City and Ajax wouldn't have the best defences in their leagues.
 

Dominos

Full Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
6,959
Location
Manchester
If he’s bad in the air then that’s another issue, which is why fundamentals are so important in the assessment for short CB’s.

There are so many nuances to this discussion in terms of ways shorter players can really disrupt taller players without even jumping for the ball. If we had a league full of Drogba’s, Duncan Ferguson’s and any other bigger forwards who were then exceptional in the air on top of that, it’d be a bigger issue, but as it stands, the PL isn’t some behemoth when it comes to the aerial game anymore; in and of itself it isn’t the issue, but if we’re talking about a poor, short aerial defender, it’s a completely different story especially so if he hasn’t mastered the arts of crossing over/under his man and completely ruining his attempted leaps for the ball or even his chance to get a clean head on it.
I don't think the compensating mentality is serving us very well.

Maybe we can get away with Maguire not being able to run. Maybe we can get away with Timber being short. Meanwhile, Liverpool have 3 centre backs who are quick, can defend 1v1, are good on the ball and dominant in the air. They didn't have to compensate for major weaknesses. We don't have to either, we're just choosing to with the players we sign.
 

Fortitude

TV/Monitor Expert
Scout
Joined
Jul 10, 2004
Messages
22,409
Location
Inside right
I don't think the compensating mentality is serving us very well.

Maybe we can get away with Maguire not being able to run. Maybe we can get away with Timber being short. Meanwhile, Liverpool have 3 centre backs who are quick, can defend 1v1, are good on the ball and dominant in the air. They didn't have to compensate for major weaknesses. We don't have to either, we're just choosing to with the players we sign.
Would depend on what he’s being signed up to play, though. I’m more convinced you deploy him in midfield or at fullback than as a centre back, but I don’t know know what ten Hag is planning or if he believes Timber can do well at CB here. I didn’t know about his aerial stats when I made the post, more it was a counter to the notion about short CB’s being a problem by default. If he has no guile as a CB, it obviously changes things quite emphatically.
 

Red_toad

Full Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2010
Messages
11,587
Location
DownUnder
I'm not his biggest fan but I always think it's stupid of him to come out with a statement so certain unless he has some sort of idea.


He looks a complete idiot if it doesn't happen.
He's not playing to the masses by saying some interest etc. He is point blank saying this will happen.

We will see I suppose but I'll take it today and enjoy it :lol:
Go look on his channel, he just rehashes shite from other sources. He’s got no direct links to anyone who manages transfer deals.
He frequently looks an idiot, he needs no assistance with that.
 

Dominos

Full Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
6,959
Location
Manchester
Dias was in the bottom 28th percentile for aerial duels won this season and he doesn't have the excuse of being a still-developing 20 year old, or of being 5ft 10. Yet City still had the best defence while carrying that apparent weakness.

And for all that Timber may have ranked so low within his own league, that didn't stop Ajax from having by far the best defence there either, even as he was partnered with a CB who was shorter again than he is which obviously wouldn't be the case here.

Aerial ability in isolation clearly isn't the be all and all in these set-ups. If it was, City and Ajax wouldn't have the best defences in their leagues.
Ajax have a level of dominance in their league that Timber won't have for us. And it will take a long time for us to reach the level of dominance City have. It would be like Liverpool playing Mascherano at CB around the time he was starting for Barca and wondering why they're not getting the same results Barca had with him, different leagues, different circumstances.

And I still think there's likely a world of difference in physicality between Dias who's competing in the most physical league and Timber.

But I guess we'll see next season.
 

goptun

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 15, 2021
Messages
253
I think all the defenders I mentioned are able to impose themselves. The point I’m making is that Cancelo’s physicality is secondary to his other qualities. Dias has both the technical abilities as well as being built and physically dominating.
Oh, right. The way you worded it was confusing then, as you said 'Laporte, Stones, Ake, Cancelo aren’t physically imposing defenders'. I'd say Cancelo is a physically imposing defender, regardless of whether or not it's his standout quality (it obviously isn't!). It goes without saying that you can be physically imposing and have first-rate technical abilities, see Rio, van Dijk etc, though they are really hard to come by.
 

amolbhatia50k

Sneaky bum time - Vaccination status: dozed off
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
95,336
Location
india
Not sure what that has to do with a centre back who's weak in the air?

Pep's Barca got away with Mascherano so I'm not saying it's impossible. But good luck to us trying to recreate that level of dominance, and in a completely different league.
Another good example.

Well, Liverpool made up for Firmino's non prolific nature by providing more goals and assists from other places and through Firminos pressing. So maybe we can do the same. Also he's a kid so we'd likely be looking at him as a squad option or someone who can perform in a variety of roles. If we'd be spending big money on FDJ who had a major weakness that would be a bigger problem.
 

Kaos

Full Member
Joined
May 6, 2007
Messages
31,603
Location
Ginseng Strip
Goldbridge is the same idiot who claimed he was 99% certain we were gonna sign Sancho the summer before last.

In short he knows feck all, and his channel is nothing more than clickbait conjecture.
 

Bojan Djordjic

Full Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2018
Messages
1,649
Dias was in the bottom 28th percentile for aerial duels won this season and he doesn't have the excuse of being a still-developing 20 year old, or of being 5ft 10. Yet City still had the best defence while carrying that apparent weakness.

And for all that Timber may have ranked so low within his own league, that didn't stop Ajax from having by far the best defence there either, even as he was partnered with a CB who was shorter again than he is which obviously wouldn't be the case here.

Aerial ability in isolation clearly isn't the be all and all in these set-ups. If it was, City and Ajax wouldn't have the best defences in their leagues.
Do you not see any difference in being a defender for City/Ajax where your team is dominating possession and control in every game versus being a defender for United where you’re being countered constantly? Ruben Dias faces 3.21 aerials per 90 and is a known weak aerial defender. Maguire, who’s a very strong aerial presence defends 4.90 aerials p90. Doesn’t sound much but it all adds up over time if you can’t control the ball. That’s why, to me, a midfield is a greater priority, by an order of magnitude. If we have a willingness to address our other dodgy positions this window, then I’d be far less concerned.
 

Dominos

Full Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
6,959
Location
Manchester
Another good example.

Well, Liverpool made up for Firmino's non prolific nature by providing more goals and assists from other places and through Firminos pressing. So maybe we can do the same. Also he's a kid so we'd likely be looking at him as a squad option or someone who can perform in a variety of roles. If we'd be spending big money on FDJ who had a major weakness that would be a bigger problem.
It's not a good example if you consider the circumstances. Do I think Liverpool would have had success playing Mascherano at CB before he joined Barca? Almost certainly not in my opinion. But again not impossible.

We're talking specifically aerially weak centre backs. Having a creative forward is a completely different discussion.

The issue is it's not one or the other. It's not a choice between a centre back who's good in most areas but short vs a centre back who's bad in most areas but tall. You can have the best of both worlds, and elite teams quite often get the best of both worlds e.g. Liverpool.
 
Last edited:

sullydnl

Ross Kemp's caf ID
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
34,063
Do you not see any difference in being a defender for City/Ajax where your team is dominating possession and control in every game versus being a defender for United where you’re being countered constantly? Ruben Dias faces 3.21 aerials per 90 and is a known weak aerial defender. Maguire, who’s a very strong aerial presence defends 4.90 aerials p90. Doesn’t sound much but it all adds up over time if you can’t control the ball. That’s why, to me, a midfield is a greater priority, by an order of magnitude. If we have a willingness to address our other dodgy positions this window, then I’d be far less concerned.
Absolutely. But the point of bringing ETH in is to turn us into exactly that Ajax/City style side. And when you're making transfers you buy players who suit the side you're trying to turn into, not the side you're trying to stop being.

I don't think anyone would argue that midfield isn't more of a priority but we have multiple positions that need strengthening. And if (as reported) Bailly and Jones are looking to leave then CB is certainly one of them. With RB also an area of concern, signing Timber makes sense from a squad composition POV as it kills two birds with one stone.
 

Elcabron

New Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2022
Messages
848
No he wouldn't. More realistic I think would be:

Henderson 20-25
AWB 20-25
Bailly 10-12
Tuanzebe 10-12

60-74m total, the upper end being quite optimistic.
Timing is everything.

See other thread created short while ago entitled "Newcastle weighing up 40m deal for Dean Henderson".
 
Status
Not open for further replies.