He has to because of the football environment. its a big deal because he puts himself at risk from chants and toxic masculinity. He is indeed brave.
Gay footballers | Czech Republic international Jakub Jankto comes out as gay
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MackRobinson
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Who is bending over backwards to offer him accommodations b/c of his personal beliefs?Not really. Welcomed would be bending over to offer him accommodations because of his personal beliefs.
Not giving a reason is dicey and opens yourself up to all sorts of assumptions, especially when he comes from a country that is known to persecute homosexuals.
Yeah it does open himself up to assumptions, but to act based on those assumptions would be the height of irony b/c that's essentially discrimination.
Frasbul
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I agree, he is brave. Don't get me wrong.He has to because of the football environment. its a big deal because he puts himself at risk from chants and toxic masculinity. He is indeed brave.
I don't like the media in this though. They keep comparing him to a guy that subsequently killed himself. Footballers "coming out" is special, because the media makes it special. I mean how cool would it have been, if he just brought his boyfriend/date/whatever to an official event without addressing it at all. Because him being gay really shouldn't be worth addressing.
jeff_goldblum
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I think something a lot of people don't think about is the very basics of being a publically gay footballer on the pitch. We've seen plenty of examples of homophobia from current footballers, how must it feel for a gay player to walk onto a pitch knowing they might be going into a 50/50 challenge with someone who thinks they are disgusting/immoral/that their way of life is a crime against nature/God? Are we reallt surprised that people don't risk coming out in an industry where homophobia (and all sorts of other questionable behaviour) is largely tolerated as long as you perform on a football pitch (as we've seen with Blackpool's current captain)?He has to because of the football environment. its a big deal because he puts himself at risk from chants and toxic masculinity. He is indeed brave.
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Until Gueye responds with why it's difficult to debate as we don't know his reasoning for it. I am obviously against his view if he opposes gay marriage/homosexuals etc., but he's entitled to his view despite how abhorrent many of us believe it is. We as a society are also entitled to shun him/others for those views. He's also entitled to not share his reasonings and people can make their own mind up as to why.
It's also v. different to Mclean not wearing the poppy for example as the institute it represents killed his people unlawfully. To my knowledge an army of gay people hasn't done that to Gueye's people.
It's also v. different to Mclean not wearing the poppy for example as the institute it represents killed his people unlawfully. To my knowledge an army of gay people hasn't done that to Gueye's people.
mu4c_20le
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No one, just like no one is forcing him to wear the shirt, we're just discussing hypotheticals here. If he doesn't want to show solidarity with everyone else and doesn't want to explain why, then he shouldn't be there at all is what I'm saying. PSG allowed him to make up a reason and pull out of the game, I probably would have done the same.Who is bending over backwards to offer him accommodations b/c of his personal beliefs?
Yeah it does open himself up to assumptions, but to act based on those assumptions would be the height of irony b/c that's essentially discrimination.
Semper Fudge
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It's about visibility and representation. Yes, of course in an ideal world it'd be great for it not to be a thing at all, but we're not there yet. Other closeted people will see Jake come out and think "maybe it's not so bad, maybe I can do that too", and that's huge for a lot of people.I agree, he is brave. Don't get me wrong.
I don't like the media in this though. They keep comparing him to a guy that subsequently killed himself. Footballers "coming out" is special, because the media makes it special. I mean how cool would it have been, if he just brought his boyfriend/date/whatever to an official event without addressing it at all. Because him being gay really shouldn't be worth addressing.
HTG
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To me it very much does.Refusing to take part doesn't mean you are an asshole. Unless you come out with bigoted reasons for not taking part.
HTG
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Equalising these two things is a very stupid and wrong thing to do. Being homophobic and hating on homophobes ain’t the same thing.I’m confused - where have I mentioned anything about abuse?
My point is that’s their right and they choose to exercise it, just as Gueye is. Getting abuse for it is abominable just as it would be for Daniels getting abuse for being gay (if it was to happen).
The Corinthian
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It’s not though. Do you think Gueye deserves abuse?Equalising these two things is a very stupid and wrong thing to do. Being homophobic and hating on homophobes ain’t the same thing.
HTG
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No one is abusing him. He’s being called out for his homophobia. He deserves to be. Freedom of speech goes both ways. He should have every right to refuse to partake in showings of solidarity like these. But we have every right to voice our opinions towards this refusal. And in my opinion Gueye is a homophobic and bigoted person to whom I wish only the worst.It’s not though. Do you think Gueye deserves abuse?
The Corinthian
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Ok so you agree then. Neither should be abused.No one is abusing him. He’s being called out for his homophobia. He deserves to be. Freedom of speech goes both ways. He should have every right to refuse to partake in showings of solidarity like these. But we have every right to voice our opinions towards this refusal. And in my opinion Gueye is a homophobic and bigoted person to whom I wish only the worst.
UDontMessWith24
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If you think it'd be cool for a pro footballer to be free to show up to an event with his boyfriend then you should probably try to figure out why him being gay is absolutely worth addressing.I agree, he is brave. Don't get me wrong.
I don't like the media in this though. They keep comparing him to a guy that subsequently killed himself. Footballers "coming out" is special, because the media makes it special. I mean how cool would it have been, if he just brought his boyfriend/date/whatever to an official event without addressing it at all. Because him being gay really shouldn't be worth addressing.
poleglass red
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we see a positive step like Daniels then back to the dark ages with actions by the likes of Gueye.
adexkola
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To me that's absolute nonsense.To me it very much does.
Are players who refused to take the knee bigots or racists?
Stacks
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You're missing context here. He keeps ranting about the religious hypocrisy angle, as if that's the issue when Gueye refuses to do his job, rather him being a cnut for not supporting gay people.
It implies had Gueye been more consistent he'd have been worthy of more respect.
To me, whatever his religious text says or how it's interprets shouldn't absolve him of his actions in any way, shape or form.
In fact if a religious person (like millions already do) goes against the mainstream interpretation of their religious texts in their views on gay people, they should be commended and shouldn't be labeled a hypocrite. This doesn't pertain to Gueye obviously.
I think no person in work should be "forced" to publicly support anything truthfully. I am black and wouldn't care if white players did not want to kneel or raise the power fist as its your right. So long as you are not going out of your way to harm, opress or disadvantage anyone then I don't care. I knew something like this would happen sooner or later in the multi-cultural sport we love and the increase in social/political activism in the sport. There will always be conflict of beliefs/opinions.I’m confused - where have I mentioned anything about abuse?
My point is that’s their right and they choose to exercise it, just as Gueye is. Getting abuse for it is abominable just as it would be for Daniels getting abuse for being gay (if it was to happen).
Roane
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I have a question which I'm not sure how to ask.
Basically can you disagree with homosexuality yet not be a homophobe?
I mean no disrespect here and am unsure of the phrasing, as in the word disagree.
Basically can you disagree with homosexuality yet not be a homophobe?
I mean no disrespect here and am unsure of the phrasing, as in the word disagree.
Stacks
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I don't think its that deep. I respect Daniels for his bravery. I also believe he doesn't expect the community to force every football player to love him and support him for who he romps with as that's his personal business. You can support United without wearing a United shirt alsowe see a positive step like Daniels then back to the dark ages with actions by the likes of Gueye.
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I have a question which I'm not sure how to ask.
Basically can you disagree with homosexuality yet not be a homophobe?
I mean no disrespect here and am unsure of the phrasing, as in the word disagree.
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Roane
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I think this is the key, for me anyway.I think no person in work should be "forced" to publicly support anything truthfully. I am black and wouldn't care if white players did not want to kneel or raise the power fist as its your right. So long as you are not going out of your way to harm, opress or disadvantage anyone then I don't care. I knew something like this would happen sooner or later in the multi-cultural sport we love and the increase in social/political activism in the sport. There will always be conflict of beliefs/opinions.
The issue starts when a person is disadvantaged or hated upon for gender, race, creed etc.
HTG
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As I haven’t heard a single person giving a reasonable explanation as to why not, they probably are. Yes.To me that's absolute nonsense.
Are players who refused to take the knee bigots or racists?
Roane
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Not sure how to take this. It was a genuine question. Again wasn't sure how to phrase it.
I was asked once by a guy, who was gay, what I thought about homosexuality. My honest response was it wasn't something I thought about. He said I was homophobic.
The truth is though it's not something I had thought about. It's not something that bothers me either way. I worked with people and disliked or like them on how they treated me. What they did in their own time was/is not something I think about.
Even as a religious person I believe that you don't oppress or look down on an individual based on their lifestyle or belief etc. That is the key message from my faith. Doesn't mean as a concept I have to disagree or agree with something. If that makes sense
I was asked once by a guy, who was gay, what I thought about homosexuality. My honest response was it wasn't something I thought about. He said I was homophobic.
The truth is though it's not something I had thought about. It's not something that bothers me either way. I worked with people and disliked or like them on how they treated me. What they did in their own time was/is not something I think about.
Even as a religious person I believe that you don't oppress or look down on an individual based on their lifestyle or belief etc. That is the key message from my faith. Doesn't mean as a concept I have to disagree or agree with something. If that makes sense
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I think ultimately no. In regards to the incident that I assume spurred this question (and afaik it's still rumours), it was about showing support and tolerance. If someone can't support and tolerate women, I'd think they were a sexist. If they couldn't do the same for muslims, I'd think they were an islamophobe, for black people I'd think racist.I have a question which I'm not sure how to ask.
Basically can you disagree with homosexuality yet not be a homophobe?
I mean no disrespect here and am unsure of the phrasing, as in the word disagree.
Roane
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My question was general. Not specific to the Geuye incident as such.I think ultimately no. In regards to the incident that I assume spurred this question (and afaik it's still rumours), it was about showing support and tolerance. If someone can't support and tolerate women, I'd think they were a sexist. If they couldn't do the same for muslims, I'd think they were an islamophobe, for black people I'd think racist.
To be fair it's something that i often think about with regards to many topics. I just am unsure at times if everything is black and white as some people see it.
It's hard not to get pigeonholed if views aren't black and white. I kind of find that frustrating.
poleglass red
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he was asked to wear a shirt for one game with a rainbow symbol on it by the club who pay his wages. How deep does his thought process go that he can't even do that, one game...Maybe I'm wired differently, I've had no issues supporting any gesture that promotes inclusiveness. Enough hate in the world right now, any gesture big or small, I think we should all support.I don't think its that deep. I respect Daniels for his bravery. I also believe he doesn't expect the community to force every football player to love him and support him for who he romps with as that's his personal business. You can support United without wearing a United shirt also
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Just looked at The Mail Online, and every single comment is pro Gueye’s stand. Very disheartening, but not surprised considering the base the Mail caters to.
Stacks
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I too would wear it but is it in his contract to wear any symbolism that the club demands? Surely players should be consulted before they put their name to any gesture and it should be ones own choice no?he was asked to wear a shirt for one game with a rainbow symbol on it by the club who pay his wages. How deep does his thought process go that he can't even do that, one game...Maybe I'm wired differently, I've had no issues supporting any gesture that promotes inclusiveness. Enough hate in the world right now, any gesture big or small, I think we should all support.
Stacks
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really? isn't it intolerant to not leave people to themselves and therefore force them to support things? The way you represent support may be different to another. I can support womens rights and not call myself a feminist. Or I can simply not be interested in this stuff or care enough to show public support. Doesn't make you a "phobe" or an "ist"I think ultimately no. In regards to the incident that I assume spurred this question (and afaik it's still rumours), it was about showing support and tolerance. If someone can't support and tolerate women, I'd think they were a sexist. If they couldn't do the same for muslims, I'd think they were an islamophobe, for black people I'd think racist.
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Wonder what their definition of a 'real man' is?
Fridge chutney
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It depends on how you define "disagree". If by disagree, you mean that you don't share the same attraction that a homosexual person does, then of course that doesn't mean you are homophobic. You can't help who you love or who you are attracted to.Basically can you disagree with homosexuality yet not be a homophobe?
However, if by "disagreeing" with homosexuality, you are casting a negative judgement on that person for being homosexual, then it absolutely makes you homophobic. Unfortunately we have seen this in comments about "real men" from Daniels' fellow footballers. Homophobia is alive and well in society, sadly.
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I am surprised by how fans are surprised that their idols don't share the same values as them. If anything, the fans are stupid themselves to expect anything real and genuine from both the big club and elite players. It's a business foremost and many have regressive mentality.
All these anti-racism , LGBT messages by clubs are done in only comfort zones, despite their huge worldwide influences. They constantly backtrack and hide themselves whenever it matters. Like, recently this club deleted it's support LGBT messages on it's Muslim social media pages.
All these anti-racism , LGBT messages by clubs are done in only comfort zones, despite their huge worldwide influences. They constantly backtrack and hide themselves whenever it matters. Like, recently this club deleted it's support LGBT messages on it's Muslim social media pages.
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Which club, United?I am surprised by how fans are surprised that their idols don't share the same values as them. If anything, the fans are stupid themselves to expect anything real and genuine from both the big club and elite players. It's a business foremost and many have regressive mentality.
All these anti-racism , LGBT messages by clubs are done in only comfort zones, despite their huge worldwide influences. They constantly backtrack and hide themselves whenever it matters. Like, recently this club deleted it's support LGBT messages on it's Muslim social media pages.
Scholesgoals
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This is called the paradox of tolerance:
The word tolerant now looks weird to me
Tldr it follows that in being tolerant of intolerance the intolerant prohibit tolerance in society.Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant
The word tolerant now looks weird to me
Chesterlestreet
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You mean something like this?Basically can you disagree with homosexuality yet not be a homophobe?
A religious person who believes homosexuality is a sin - but who respects individual homosexuals in a "live and let live" sort of way? More precisely, they would not discriminate against homosexuals or abuse them in any way?
If so - I suppose, yes. For me, that person would be misguided but not "homophobic" (that really wouldn't be the most fitting term).
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It's should be mutual respect, never toleranceThis is called the paradox of tolerance:
Tldr it follows that in being tolerant of intolerance the intolerant prohibit tolerance
in society.
The word tolerant now looks weird to me
Being tolerant when faced with constant intolerance, makes you weak and impotent.
Zlatattack
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You should listen to Wilfred Zahas objection to it.As I haven’t heard a single person giving a reasonable explanation as to why not, they probably are. Yes.
I can respect where you're coming from, but even in a general sense it comes to thinking there is fundamentally wrong with someone. If you disagree with homosexuality, it comes down to not accepting gay people. Even if done without malice.My question was general. Not specific to the Geuye incident as such.
To be fair it's something that i often think about with regards to many topics. I just am unsure at times if everything is black and white as some people see it.
It's hard not to get pigeonholed if views aren't black and white. I kind of find that frustrating.
I tied in the incident to the question, but the question was " Basically can you disagree with homosexuality yet not be a homophobe? " not the incident in a vacuum.really? isn't it intolerant to not leave people to themselves and therefore force them to support things? The way you represent support may be different to another. I can support womens rights and not call myself a feminist. Or I can simply not be interested in this stuff or care enough to show public support. Doesn't make you a "phobe" or an "ist"
Irwin99
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What was that?You should listen to Wilfred Zahas objection to it.
Chesterlestreet
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Eh? United did that?Like, recently this club deleted it's support LGBT messages on it's Muslim social media pages.
And what's "Muslim social media pages"?
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I meant those Muslim countries like Indonesia....Eh? United did that?
And what's "Muslim social media pages"?