Are penalties a disproportionate punishment for most handball offences?

Yep completely agree. An indirect free kick would be much fairer.

The only time it should be a penalty is if the ball is going in and it's stopped by a player's hand (I'd even say give the referee the power to award a goal if it's literally stopped on the goal line for example) or if a player is through on goal and dispossessed by someone's hand.

Out of everything in football I'd reform this, along with the way playing time works (ie, the clock should stop entirely every time the ball is out of play, inc. if a keeper is holding onto it, throw ins etc)

Yes, but then that goes for a lot of penalties in general. A tackle on the edge of the box where it meets the byline, on a player that isn’t going anywhere should never really be rewarded with basically a free goal.

Agreed, I'd say :
- stopping or deflecting a shot on target should be a penalty
- othewise it should be indirect free kick
They did a good job overall this season changing the rules, but hopefully next season we'll have more consistent var decisions on handball.

The problem with this is what's stopping the defender from punching a ball that's going in if the consequence is an indirect free kick?

If we try to state that it only applies to incidents that are accidental or the arm was in an unnatural position we're venturing into subjective territory. The non-penalty against Arsenal where the defender crawled along the floor then punched the ball is a good example of the subjectiveness already applied to handballs.

Quite frankly, if the arm isn't by your side or it hits you at point blank range, it should be a penalty. Ball to hand used to be a thing.

Yes, penalties need a full rework. I posted a similar thread in the newbs last week.

Penalties are a disproportionate punishment for many fouls, while freekicks are often disproportionately lower chances, than what was taken away by the foul. Personally I would like it if refs could award free kicks instead of penalties for certain offenses inside the box, while I also believe a penalty should be rewarded for a foul that destroys a great opportunity, even if that foul happened outside the box. It would be more just this way, I believe.

I'd theoretically be in favour of penalties only being for denial of a goalscoring opportunity, regardless of the type of foul, but I'd be nervous about massively increasing the occasions the officials make that particular call given I don't think they're very consistent at it right now.

Solius said:

I literally said in the OP if it’s deliberate then it should still be a pen.

You’ll never find a solution for the subjective examples but stuff like Suarez or Gibbs handballs would be the examples of blatant and warranted pens.

Click to expand...

Alright, I didn't read it all. BUT what's deliberate? It's too subjective and the refs are too shit to be consistent. We often see defender's giving away penalties (like ours at Brighton that Fernandes took after the game had ended) where their arms are up in the air for some reason. Is that deliberate? He wasn't even looking at the ball, but it's still a stone wall penalty,

100% - I've long thought this - unless they deny a goal / clear goalscoring opportunity, then it should be an IDFK.

To be honest I'm thinking that most fouls in the box should be an IDFK - the reward is disproportionate to the offence in 90% of cases. Guess the issue is determening clear instances for when a penalty should be awarded (which is eaiser to do with handballs)

Annihilate Now! said:

100% - I've long thought this - unless they deny a goal / clear goalscoring opportunity, then it should be an IDFK.

To be honest I'm thinking that most fouls in the box should be an IDFK - the reward is disproportionate to the offence in 90% of cases. Guess the issue is determening clear instances for when a penalty should be awarded (which is eaiser to do with handballs)

Click to expand...

Define this though

Penalties from handballs or dodgy tackles on the edge of the box should be different than ones where a clear goalscoring opportunity has been prevented. You can call them "kicked in the shins penalties." Just before the kicker takes his run he gets kicked in both shins really hard, and for added pressure he's also informed that he'll be kicked in the shins again if he scores.

crossy1686 said:

Define this though

Click to expand...

Handball on the line / handball that blocks a shot that's going on target / handball that prevents someone from clearly getting a free shot away.

Imagine the amount of moaning over the 'is it a clear and obvious goal-scoring chance?' for these decisions. Doesn't it depend on how good the shooter is? No, all should be penalties.

Annihilate Now! said:

Handball on the line / handball that blocks a shot that's going on target / handball that prevents someone from clearly getting a free shot away.

Click to expand...

What about handball where a player has his hands in the air while jumping? If the player hands the ball but he's facing away from the ball? If the ball hits a players knee then rolls onto his arm and he pushes it away from the goal or opposition player? The player makes a sliding tackle and his trailing arm touches or traps the ball? The player picks the ball up in his own area because he thought he heard the ref's whistle?

From the young age defenders and forwards learn that the penalties can be really harmful to their team, it's really not hard to avoid conceeding penalties, especially if you are not stupid.

Jumping with your arms high in the box near the ball or making stupid tackles in the box means you'll get punished. You don't see the likes of Van Dijk or any other quality defenders and players conceeding stupid penalties.

Only thing that could be worked are soft penalties given for soft fouls and handballs that weren't going anyhwere(like the one @Solius mentioned we got againdt PSG).

No.
Otherwise where do you stop with this sort of thing?

Say a trip a centimetre in the pen box, or someone tripped running away from goal...should they not be pens as they're not someone tripping someone with an open goal 3 yards out centrally?

Solius said:

Yeah you’re never going to be rid of subjectivity but the threshold would be for the refs to decide I guess.

Click to expand...

Then surely we're just adding more potential inconsistency to the decision making process by forcing the ref to make a subjective decision on accidental or not first. We already see massive disparity in penalty claims as it is for handballs.

Yes. I hate penalties ruining matches.
It’s an easy let off for many teams.

I was also going to open a thread about penalty shoot outs. Seems to be Liverpool’s thing, which doesn’t help.
I don’t agree with being able to ‘win’ a trophy based on a lottery.

crossy1686 said:

What about handball where a player has his hands in the air while jumping? If the player hands the ball but he's facing away from the ball? If the ball hits a players knee then rolls onto his arm and he pushes it away from the goal or opposition player? The player makes a sliding tackle and his trailing arm touches or traps the ball? The player picks the ball up in his own area because he thought he heard the ref's whistle?

Click to expand...

Well for the ones which classify as handballs (and some don't under the current rules) then it would be on the ref to decide whether it's a DOGSO or not - like a ref already has to do for other incidents. I don't see how it's any different to other decisions a referee has to make.

Yes. It's a side effect of VAR though. The harshness of penalties was kept under control by human error and a referees inability to see everything. Last season they called everything and exposed how crazy the penalty rules can be. Now they're trying to pull it back in line with pre-VAR decision making and it's equally ridiculous because now they're blindly ignoring obvious infringements.

Annihilate Now! said:

Well for the ones which classify as handballs (and some don't under the current rules) then it would be on the ref to decide whether it's a DOGSO or not - like a ref already has to do for other incidents. I don't see how it's any different to other decisions a referee has to make.

Click to expand...

Personally I think most handball incidents are penalties, you can see on a replay whether it was ball to hand or it's hit a poorly placed hand. Defenders don't deserve the benefit of the doubt, they'll do whatever possible to stop a goal, just presume they meant it and give the penalty unless it's clear they knew nothing about it.

Lecland07 said:

Imagine the amount of moaning over the 'is it a clear and obvious goal-scoring chance?' for these decisions. Doesn't it depend on how good the shooter is? No, all should be penalties.

Click to expand...

A foul in the box is a pen is fine by me. You're right, there's enough hair splitting as it is. It'd be a feckin nightmare.

Yes, totally. Especially the way the hand ball interpretation keeps shifting. If a player deliberately uses their hand to deflect the ball in the box, that should be a penalty, and if it was goal-bound, a red. Barring that, it's unrealistic to expect people who are running and tussling to avoid flinging their arms around, even jumping up makes your arms swing, and when the ball is played at you there's no time to react. The handball rule needs an overhaul.

Yes, and someone accidentally fouled when they are running away from the goal.
Not sure what the solution could be.... indirect freekick, maybe?

Grylte said:

Yes, and someone accidentally fouled when they are running away from the goal.
Not sure what the solution could be.... indirect freekick, maybe?

Click to expand...

See I don’t mind that, most cases it’s going to be the defender’s fault for jumping in stupidly. The handballs where it’s a shit cross and it hits an arm are the worst.

Maybe pens for handballs that block an on target shot, intentional or deny a goal scoring opportunity?

Solius said:

I literally said in the OP if it’s deliberate

Click to expand...

That just sounds like more power into the hands of the ref. Already refs struggle to comprehend stuff like "clear and obvious error" and do as they will.

HTG said:

Penalties are a disproportionate punishment for many fouls, while freekicks are often disproportionately lower chances, than what was taken away by the foul. Personally I would like it if refs could award free kicks instead of penalties for certain offenses inside the box, while I also believe a penalty should be rewarded for a foul that destroys a great opportunity, even if that foul happened outside the box. It would be more just this way, I believe.

Click to expand...

This is an interesting proposition and you're right in that it would be more just, but this would bring a lot of subjectivity in the evaluation of what offences constitute as a penalty.

For now, unfortunately, the next best thing is consistent interpretation of the handball rule. Referees are having trouble with this as is!

sugar_kane said:

Yep completely agree. An indirect free kick would be much fairer.

The only time it should be a penalty is if the ball is going in and it's stopped by a player's hand (I'd even say give the referee the power to award a goal if it's literally stopped on the goal line for example) or if a player is through on goal and dispossessed by someone's hand.

Out of everything in football I'd reform this, along with the way playing time works (ie, the clock should stop entirely every time the ball is out of play, inc. if a keeper is holding onto it, throw ins etc)

Click to expand...

I'd change this slightly to a penalty for deliberate handball and an indirect free kick for accidental handball. The referee can determine intent. If you make yourself noticeably bigger I think that can be deemed intentional or if your recklessly throw your body in the way of shot for example. But a deflection off your thigh onto your arm should not be a pen nor should it be unpunished.

The vast majority of penalties are indeed disproportionate to the offence committed. What is it, something like a 78% chance of scoring one? There's nowhere near that chance of scoring a goal when one is awarded most of the time.

Having said that, they should be in a way because if you only restored the situation/gave the team a similar chance of scoring then there'd be no difference between fouling or not/handling the ball or not. You have to punish them to a greater extent than the opportunity that was taken away. Penalties are the easiest way to do it I suppose.

Maybe one day when we have super high tech they'll introduce something using xG or similar. Commit handball or a foul in the box and the oppo get a free shot on goal from a position in line with the xG probability of scoring from that situation + a certain amount added on as the punishment. You deny a 0.10 xG chance, they get given a shot at a 0.30 xG chance or something along those lines. I don't think we're near that point yet and it would take some getting used to if it ever happened. Not sure I'd even like it but perhaps we'll see it one day.

Wouldn't mind automatic goals being awarded by refs for handball on the line because the chance of scoring the pen is less than the goal that certainly would have been. Of course, the oppos get a player sent off too in such circumstances but if it's very late in the game then it would be stupid not to handball it like Suarez did in that Uruguay v Ghana match.

crossy1686 said:

Then surely we're just adding more potential inconsistency to the decision making process by forcing the ref to make a subjective decision on accidental or not first. We already see massive disparity in penalty claims as it is for handballs.

Click to expand...

I think it would be better in the sense that an attacking team knows its getting either an indirect free kick or a pen. At the moment the majority of handballs in the box go unpunished.

No penalty.

Chop the hand off, they won't do it again in a hurry.

Deliberate handball to me is what Tavares did v you guys, sticks his hands up to deflect away a cross. Or stopping a shot near the goalline although that rarely happens much.

It's calmed down since that ridiculous period start of last season when defenders were having shots smashed at them from two yards and some penalties were given even when backs were turned. In that scenario it should honestly be treated same as a backpass.

Are the handball rules to strict?

Fernandes getting booked for getting from close range, Martínez conceding a penalty against Sociedad

It's meant to be deliberate handball, just bin all the stupid guidance and go back to the original law.

Referees can judge if a player is deliberately getting an advantage by using their hands. Be it by making their body bigger or other means.

Annihilate Now! said:

100% - I've long thought this - unless they deny a goal / clear goalscoring opportunity, then it should be an IDFK.

To be honest I'm thinking that most fouls in the box should be an IDFK - the reward is disproportionate to the offence in 90% of cases. Guess the issue is determening clear instances for when a penalty should be awarded (which is eaiser to do with handballs)

Click to expand...

Fouls like this (min 2:30), in the corner of the box, not remotely close to even being a half chance let alone a goal scoring chance, is what I think of when people say a penalty is disproportionate to the crime.

Instead of an IDFK I would suggest a penalty kick from the spot of the foul. So in this scenario, Jorginho would have to attempt to beat the keeper from just inside the corner of the box

Yes, but IFAB decided to eliminate the indirect free kick in the box for some reason....

Imo handball should always be an indirect fk unless it's deliberate or stops a shot on goal