Abortion

Wolverine

Full Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2004
Messages
2,448
Location
UK
How are the red states going to legislate women crossing border to get these done? Or telemedicine with pills sent in the post?
Or clinics on federal property?

worst part about this is the democrats after so much legislative and political inertia has a genuine chance to show a bit of political character but its doubtful theyll do anything substantive
 

RoadTrip

petitioned for a just cause
Joined
May 9, 2013
Messages
26,370
Location
Los Pollos Hermanos...
choccy77 said:
No one should be in a position to dictate or oppress how someone lives or the decisions they make that are the best for themselves or their wellbeing.

Unfortunately, in all walks of life and especially online, many people feel they are the power to judge or dictate what other people should do or say rather than look at their own behaviours, actions or words.

Sadly, despite many progresses, we live in a world of self importance and the need to control how others live their lives and now more than ever, people all over the world need to become more compassionate and accepting of others and we will all begin to live in a happier world.
Click to expand...
And we are moving further and further away from that world.
 

Sweet Square

Full Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
23,542
Location
The Zone
DiceRoller said:
I’m genuinely torn on where to settle on abortion.

On one hand, I completely see the rights of a woman to decide on what happens with their body.

On the flip I can’t shake the instances I’ve seen of college women aborting because it doesn’t suit their stage in life and studying schedule.

Maybe it’s a case of permitting it in certain instances.

I just can’t shake the memory of my wife being pregnant, getting a scan, hearing the heartbeat. Hearing that heartbeat makes it real that it’s a person developing.

I don’t know, I’ve struggled with this one for a bit.
Click to expand...
Imo the only to come to an answer is to at first put aside the debate around things like at what stage of the pregnancy does the foetus become a person or do women have right to control their own bodies all time, etc, etc.

And to deal with very blunt reality that history shows regardless of the law, women have always terminated the pregnancy if they didn’t want it. So really the question is are you in favour of the medical procedure of abortion getting carried out as safe possible or not.
 

Infra-red

Full Member
Joined
May 4, 2010
Messages
13,411
Location
left wing
It's a very strange country and looks like it is only going to get stranger. Definitely not somewhere I would ever want to live.
 

GDaly95

Says he's one of the best posters
Joined
May 1, 2013
Messages
6,273
Location
Wicklow, Ireland
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Why does a heartbeat matter? It’s an organ. Not sentience.

By your logic, everyone should be kept on life support until their heart gives up?

I appreciate you being brave enough to speak up in open forum. Too few are willing.

Women should choose though. 100% of the time, with zero restrictions. The world would be a better place if it were that way. That it’s even a question is a black mark on society.
Click to expand...
What do you mean by this?

I'm pro-choice and I agree with the premise that it is the woman's right to choose.

But we would probably also both agree (or maybe not) that abortion shouldn't be allowed to take place say, one week before the estimated day of birth assuming there are no medical emergencies or new circumstances that have surfaced this late on in the pregnancy. I think most people would agree with that, meaning most pro-choice people at a certain point essentially become pro-life, no?

Also, am I not right in saying that the house Republican stance on abortion is a 15 week abortion limit, and not the complete ban of abortion? Again, could be wrong. This is what I've read. How does that fare with the laws across Europe, would it actually be more liberal than the European laws?
 

MarylandMUFan

Full Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2004
Messages
5,165
Location
About 5,600 kilometers from Old Trafford
GDaly95 said:
What do you mean by this?

I'm pro-choice and I agree with the premise that it is the woman's right to choose.

But we would probably also both agree (or maybe not) that abortion shouldn't be allowed to take place say, one week before the estimated day of birth assuming there are no medical emergencies or new circumstances that have surfaced this late on in the pregnancy. I think most people would agree with that, meaning most pro-choice people at a certain point essentially become pro-life, no?

Also, am I not right in saying that the house Republican stance on abortion is a 15 week abortion limit, and not the complete ban of abortion? Again, could be wrong. This is what I've read. How does that fare with the laws across Europe, would it actually be more liberal than the European laws?
Click to expand...
I think the point is that a heartbeat is just as random of an organ to determine the beginning of life (or some imaginary cut off) as any other organ like a liver or kidney. The religious right have attached some sort of special meaning to heart development to determine when one can have an abortion (and absolutely made up imaginary heart beat timelines).
 

flameinthesun

Full Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
2,032
Location
London
I don't know if respect is the word I'd use for the republicans and the right but they sure do seem to get things done and quickly whereas the dems and left always seem slow and impotent. Which is frustrating because it leads to voter frustration with people thinking whats the point if voting left or voting at all if they are not going to do anything.
 

InfiniteBoredom

Full Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2013
Messages
13,610
Location
Melbourne
flameinthesun said:
I don't know if respect is the word I'd use for the republicans and the right but they sure do seem to get things done and quickly whereas the dems and left always seem slow and impotent. Which is frustrating because it leads to voter frustration with people thinking whats the point if voting left or voting at all if they are not going to do anything.
Click to expand...
This movement to overturn Roe has been literally 40 years in the making, if not more.

It’s not so much Republicans being efficient, it’s the ineptitude of their opinion that allowed this to happen.
 

MarylandMUFan

Full Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2004
Messages
5,165
Location
About 5,600 kilometers from Old Trafford
flameinthesun said:
I don't know if respect is the word I'd use for the republicans and the right but they sure do seem to get things done and quickly whereas the dems and left always seem slow and impotent. Which is frustrating because it leads to voter frustration with people thinking whats the point if voting left or voting at all if they are not going to do anything.
Click to expand...
True, but on the flip side, there are states that passed laws years ago guaranteeing the right to abortion so some more liberal states were ahead of the game.
 

calodo2003

Flaming Full Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
41,728
Location
Florida
GDaly95 said:
What do you mean by this?

I'm pro-choice and I agree with the premise that it is the woman's right to choose.

But we would probably also both agree (or maybe not) that abortion shouldn't be allowed to take place say, one week before the estimated day of birth assuming there are no medical emergencies or new circumstances that have surfaced this late on in the pregnancy. I think most people would agree with that, meaning most pro-choice people at a certain point essentially become pro-life, no?

Also, am I not right in saying that the house Republican stance on abortion is a 15 week abortion limit, and not the complete ban of abortion? Again, could be wrong. This is what I've read. How does that fare with the laws across Europe, would it actually be more liberal than the European laws?
Click to expand...
Not really. House republicans never supported such. It’s a moot point as now it is left up to individual states. Half the country has effectively outlawed abortion or is about you. Many of those states don’t even have exemptions for rape & incest.
 

calodo2003

Flaming Full Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
41,728
Location
Florida
flameinthesun said:
I don't know if respect is the word I'd use for the republicans and the right but they sure do seem to get things done and quickly whereas the dems and left always seem slow and impotent. Which is frustrating because it leads to voter frustration with people thinking whats the point if voting left or voting at all if they are not going to do anything.
Click to expand...
Their focus is much narrower than the left. They can exert more pressure & weight on specific issues much more effectively, especially at the state & local levels.
 

arnie_ni

Full Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2014
Messages
15,191
nimic said:
The money isn't for her, it's for the kid. This would just punish a whole lot of kids.
Click to expand...
This is a whole different argument but you can't guarantee it gets to the kid. But if a father uses that an excuse to bail on their kids upbringing he's a bit of a twat
 

RoadTrip

petitioned for a just cause
Joined
May 9, 2013
Messages
26,370
Location
Los Pollos Hermanos...
GDaly95 said:
What do you mean by this?

I'm pro-choice and I agree with the premise that it is the woman's right to choose.

But we would probably also both agree (or maybe not) that abortion shouldn't be allowed to take place say, one week before the estimated day of birth assuming there are no medical emergencies or new circumstances that have surfaced this late on in the pregnancy. I think most people would agree with that, meaning most pro-choice people at a certain point essentially become pro-life, no?

Also, am I not right in saying that the house Republican stance on abortion is a 15 week abortion limit, and not the complete ban of abortion? Again, could be wrong. This is what I've read. How does that fare with the laws across Europe, would it actually be more liberal than the European laws?
Click to expand...
Firstly, you’re wrong on the republican stance. Just see what’s happening in all the states controlled by republican legislatures. We are talking full bans on abortion, even in the most heinous of situations (E.g rape).

Secondly, your logic is a bit flawed. Someone who is pro-choice doesn’t become pro-life. They just move in the spectrum within their choice. Again, you’re conflating the idea of pro-choice inherently being pro-abortion. Many, many people who support choice (me included) do not morally agree with the idea of an abortion. Hence the question is about choice - should I, if I was in a position of power, enforce my viewpoint on the millions? Or should each of those people be able to make a decision based on what is best for them? That’s the question.
 

oneniltothearsenal

Caf's Milton Friedman and Arse Aficionado
Scout
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
11,114
Supports
Brazil, Arsenal,LA Aztecs
12OunceEpilogue said:
Has anybody got reliable stats for public opinions on this? My instinct is this is old conservatives holding a generally more liberal population to ransom but I've been struck by the amount of footage I'e seen in the past 24 hours of young women (no doubt carefully placed at the front of crowds to get on TV for the precise aim of skewing perceptions) celebrating the ruling. The 'Pro-Life Generation' slogan looks a weird, sick joke to me as an outsider but is there more genuine pro-life feeling in young people in the US than I'd imagined?
Click to expand...
This poll has 61% believe abortion should be legal in all or most cases
38% illegal in all or most cases

https://www.pewresearch.org/politic...legal-abortion-oppose-overturning-roe-v-wade/

Brookings divides slightly differently
25% to 35% believe always legal
10% to 15% believe it should never be legal
With the rest somewhere on between

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2022/06/24/roe-v-wade-overturned-despite-public-opinion/amp/

And here 64% oppose overturning Roe
33% support overturning Roe

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/19/1099844097/abortion-polling-roe-v-wade-supreme-court-draft-opinion

However the surveys are parsed it's clear that a majority take a view that is some form of pro choice.

I was at a smaller protest yesterday and the majority of cars, based on constant honking, would seem to oppose the decision though I do live in California which already has a trigger law that legalizes abortion.
 

Adisa

likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
50,359
Location
Birmingham
Imagine forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy. It doesn't make sense.
 

Mike Smalling

Full Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2018
Messages
10,827
calodo2003 said:
Click to expand...
It really is crazy the extent to which companies have to take a stand around political issues in the US. Just goes to show that there is a clear right and wrong here, since they are not scared of pissing off some of their employees and customer base.
 

oneniltothearsenal

Caf's Milton Friedman and Arse Aficionado
Scout
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
11,114
Supports
Brazil, Arsenal,LA Aztecs


And she mentions the common right-wing response I've seen all over the internet the last two days, she was much more calm in her replies than I have been

"Truly obsessed with the many, many people in my mentions telling me to keep my legs shut and being forced to birth and raise an unwanted child won’t be a problem for me. Love the idea of living in a world where all sex is consensual and birth control failures don’t exist! "

"Hang out in a divorce group, learn how common marital rape is and get back to me!"
 

Blackwidow

Full Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
7,751
It is not about babies. If you look to how western Europe (and it not an ideal life there, too, and having kids is a poverty risk especially for unmarried women) takes care of their kids and families the USA simply is a third world country - nah, even a lot of third world countries offer more support for the children.
 

MarylandMUFan

Full Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2004
Messages
5,165
Location
About 5,600 kilometers from Old Trafford
It's funny, we celebrated like everything was better when Biden won, knowing the damage was done with not only the Supreme Court appointments but a shit ton of unqualified religious Federalist Society lawyers being appointed throughout the lower court systems.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.