Abortion

Ted Lasso

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It might sound harsh to you but as the world it is right now human life is more valuable than animal life. Animals are known to trample their own kids and kill each other as basic instinct. A vegan will disagree with this but the fact is in general right now we don't equate animals to human beings.
Appreciate your honest thoughts here. It doesn't sound harsh at all. I find that most people don't have a genuine empathy or sincere sense of the value of life for other humans let alone other species.

We're a species that commits genocide on its own and rationalizes it. We also actively destroy our habitat in a way that preempts extinction. Our superiority as the dominant land mammal doesn't make us more valuable in any objective way. I would even go so far as to say the opposite view has more merit - that humans are the least valuable on the planet and whose demise would do the most good for the planet and beyond.

But that's digressing. I understand why you don't value animal life the same way as human life and why you find the lives of unborn to be so important as to dictate the life of a matured human.
 

shamans

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Appreciate your honest thoughts here. It doesn't sound harsh at all. I find that most people don't have a genuine empathy or sincere sense of the value of life for other humans let alone other species.

We're a species that commits genocide on its own and rationalizes it. We also actively destroy our habitat in a way that preempts extinction. Our superiority as the dominant land mammal doesn't make us more valuable in any objective way. I would even go so far as to say the opposite view has more merit - that humans are the least valuable on the planet and whose demise would do the most good for the planet and beyond.

But that's digressing. I understand why you don't value animal life the same way as human life and why you find the lives of unborn to be so important as to dictate the life of a matured human.
Just to be clear my only desire is there be a term limit. A reasonable limit where for sure one has known they are having a child and so on. Following that logic, you can make a decision to have an abortion but don't wait to change your decision again if the term is too late. I don't think that's the unborn dictating it really in that situation. Of course health risks are different.

This obviously can't apply right now in the red states where the term limits are pretty ridiculous to the point you can't even know you're pregnant. It's a complicated topic for me, abortion. Roe vs Wade overturned on the other hand is simply dumb.

As for animals and humans -- it's a lengthy subject. I understand the brutality of human kind likely surpasses that of many animals but I think so does compassion and love of human beings. We are able to love stray animals and bring them in our homes. We have humans who are actively deciding not to consume other animals out of love and care for them which I don't think any animal could do. I think in general as a species we are twats to animals for no reason and it's a real shame but at the end of the day, I can't put the value of an animal life before a human. It's a long topic though and I'm sure whatever I just said is full of counters. Maybe another thread would be suited for it.
 

Peter van der Gea

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I hope that most would agree that if the most premature baby was at 21 weeks, anything before that is unviable and thus solely the woman's choice. Which, as I've said before, is minimum 5+ months.

Sperm donors, government officials, the local fairy-in-the-sky-druids, can feck off until then minimum.
 

Bobade

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People in this thread suggesting there should be some kind of test you have to pass in order to have a baby is bad enough, but the fact that anyone would trust any government body or institution to implement such a test is ludicrous.
 

Jericholyte2

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Were every single one of your beautiful daughter's ancestors better than shite parents? All the way back to prehistory?

I understand your struggle, my sister has recently understood that her chance is finished. Thousands of pounds to get nowhere, I understand your anger too, even though you got through it and were blessed.

Edit: I don't know if your religious or atheist, but maybe your's and my sister's struggles are because you aren't "fit for procreation"? Who said your genes are the ones we need in the future?
I’m not talking about genes.

I’m talking about being ‘pro-life’ in terms of supporting children during development and ensuring that cases where parents cause 60 odd fractures to their children, or deliberately poison, or crush them with car seats, is kept to an absolutely minimum.

Because I know that no matter what, my wife and I would have given our proverbial right arm to have been given the gift that they had repeatedly squandered. But I suppose that some are happy to see headlines about tortured children in order to keep peoples’ precious freedom.
 
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KirkDuyt

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I’m not talking about genes.

I’m talking about being ‘pro-life’ in terms of supporting children during development and ensuring that cases where parents cause 60 odd fractures to their children, or deliberately poison, or crush them with car seats, is kept to an absolutely minimum.

Because I know that no matter what, my wife and I would have given our proverbial right arm to have been given the gift that they had repeatedly squandered. But I suppose that some are happy to see headlines about tortured children in order to keep peoples’ precious freedom.
Not butting into the whole parenting test thing, but how is this train of thought even in your brain while having an 11 day old child :lol:
 

Bobade

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I’m not talking about genes.

I’m talking about being ‘pro-life’ in terms of supporting children during development and ensuring that cases where parents cause 60 odd fractures to their children, or deliberately poison, or crush them with car seats, is kept to an absolutely minimum.

Because I know that no matter what, my wife and I would have given our proverbial right arm to have been given the gift that they had repeatedly squandered. But I suppose that some are happy to see headlines about tortured children in order to keep peoples’ precious freedom.
This is absolute hyperbole. 1, wanting to keep people's freedom does not mean you're happy to see children tortured. 2, children would still get tortured and killed, no matter what vetting process you put in place. 3, you've completely ignored the argument that no government department is trustworthy to determine who is suitable to have a child. How would they even do it? What criteria would you be proposing ?
 

Jericholyte2

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This is absolute hyperbole. 1, wanting to keep people's freedom does not mean you're happy to see children tortured. 2, children would still get tortured and killed, no matter what vetting process you put in place. 3, you've completely ignored the argument that no government department is trustworthy to determine who is suitable to have a child. How would they even do it? What criteria would you be proposing ?
1. Doing nothing isn’t an option for me when I see headlines about child murder / torture

2. ‘Bad guys would still get guns even if we put in gun control laws’ - yes, some still would, but that doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be a net.

3. I previously mentioned how difficult the practicalities of implementing such a scheme would be. I’m in no doubt that, for example, Dominic Raab as Justice Minister should be absolutely nowhere near making such legislation. But that doesn’t render the need for something moot.
 

nimic

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I’m not talking about genes.

I’m talking about being ‘pro-life’ in terms of supporting children during development and ensuring that cases where parents cause 60 odd fractures to their children, or deliberately poison, or crush them with car seats, is kept to an absolutely minimum.

Because I know that no matter what, my wife and I would have given our proverbial right arm to have been given the gift that they had repeatedly squandered. But I suppose that some are happy to see headlines about tortured children in order to keep peoples’ precious freedom.
I think it's wonderful that you and your wife finally managed to have a child, and it's sad that it was such a struggle for you to get one. But I also think you're understandably too wrapped up in your own situation to be objective here. You mention your child and your difficulties in every post about the topic. Maybe you're simply too close to it.
 

Bobade

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1. Doing nothing isn’t an option for me when I see headlines about child murder / torture

2. ‘Bad guys would still get guns even if we put in gun control laws’ - yes, some still would, but that doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be a net.

3. I previously mentioned how difficult the practicalities of implementing such a scheme would be. I’m in no doubt that, for example, Dominic Raab as Justice Minister should be absolutely nowhere near making such legislation. But that doesn’t render the need for something moot.
The need is moot. Having children is a basic biological function and desire. The practicalities are more than difficult. They are impossible.

And 'doing nothing isn't an option for you' when you read about child murder? OK, so what are you doing currently? I don't mean that to sound snarky, I'm genuinely asking. I hate people who murder kids as much as anyone, but I'm not sure what I can do about it? Maybe there is something I can do and you will explain this to me.
 

Mike Smalling

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How can you advocate for the freedom of choice to end a pregnancy but also advocate to remove the freedom of choice to start one?
Freedom of choice to start one is all about women's ability to control their semen intake. It's really not that difficult.
 

KirkDuyt

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I sort of somehow get the notion of wanting to restrict people from having children, but reflecting on this properly for about a second surely makes it obvious that it's neither workable nor something we should ever aspire to. Restricting a couple's choice to have children is, quite frankly, fascist. Sure, some people should probably not have children, but where do you draw this line and who the feck are we to decide that line? No parent is perfect and not everyone is actually fit to be a parent, even if they do have the means and will. That's not something for a government or law to decide.

I do think there should be a bigger effort in educating people about health in regards to pregnancy and raising children. It may be very a very alien realization for us well educated people, but not everyone knows you shouldn't eat red meat or drink alcohol while pregnant. I'd say we should teach them instead of locking their wombs.

On a similar note, I sometimes lament the fact every adult is allowed to vote since so many of us are utterly unfit to decide who should represent us in government, but restricting who can or cannot vote would be similarly fascist.
 

Buster15

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I sort of somehow get the notion of wanting to restrict people from having children, but reflecting on this properly for about a second surely makes it obvious that it's neither workable nor something we should ever aspire to. Restricting a couple's choice to have children is, quite frankly, fascist. Sure, some people should probably not have children, but where do you draw this line and who the feck are we to decide that line? No parent is perfect and not everyone is actually fit to be a parent, even if they do have the means and will. That's not something for a government or law to decide.

I do think there should be a bigger effort in educating people about health in regards to pregnancy and raising children. It may be very a very alien realization for us well educated people, but not everyone knows you shouldn't eat red meat or drink alcohol while pregnant. I'd say we should teach them instead of locking their wombs.

On a similar note, I sometimes lament the fact every adult is allowed to vote since so many of us are utterly unfit to decide who should represent us in government, but restricting who can or cannot vote would be similarly fascist.
That is an extremely philosophical issue.
In essence you are right on both points - having children and voting.
But your point about education is the most important.

We were fortunate enough to have had 2 children. But whatever you are told beforehand, bringing up a child is one of the steepest learning curves ever.
And unfortunately some people are not able to cope with all of the difficulties. But are free to have as many children as they please.

Contrast that with the incredibly arduous process of adoption, which is so physically and emotionally challenging.
 

12OunceEpilogue

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The problem is beyond just Trump. Republicans have been building for this for decades and McConnell would have given any Republican President this option and none of Trump's nominations were due to Trump. They were all hand picked for him by the Federalist Society and their allies. I wish we could just blame Trump for this but the reality is much scarier. We have somewhere between 25%-40% that have no problem imposing their minority beliefs on the rest of the nation at all costs through the undemocratic nature of the US government (electoral college, Senate). What the rogue President did do though, was show even less care in outright trying to overturn an election that didn't go his way which is something this new breed of firebrand conservatives seems to have taken and run with.
Indeed, I was listening to piece talking about Bush's victory over Gore (if you want to talk about stolen elections maybe start there Q Shaman and assorted dickheads) as a sliding doors moment that got us here. They also mentioned Ruth BG not stepping down under Obama when she knew she had months to live so he could make the pick but she wanted to hang on for Hilary, plus candidate Obama's stated priority of codifying the right to abortion being brushed under the carpet as soon as he's in and Pelosi's poem and crocodile tears when firmer action could have been taken years ago. The system is tragic.
 

Adisa

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The most depressing thing about this (apart from all the lives potentially ruined obviously) is the realisation that the Democrats are impotent millionaire fecks. Best of luck America.
Paid handsomly to lose.
Just look at Joe Manchin. He probably is the best funded senator in America.
 

UpWithRivers

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Got to ask why these rich arseholes give a fk about abortions because its nothing to do with pro life thats for sure. Maybe to stop the population decline? Although everyone thinks less people the better. Its actually not good for the economy. They need the labor pool for their sweat shops and not a population of geriatrics that take resources. Thats probably their thinking, Im thinking.
 

Carolina Red

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Got to ask why these rich arseholes give a fk about abortions because its nothing to do with pro life thats for sure. Maybe to stop the population decline? Although everyone thinks less people the better. Its actually not good for the economy. They need the labor pool for their sweat shops and not a population of geriatrics that take resources. Thats probably their thinking, Im thinking.
And to be consumers.
 

MUW4Eva

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Indeed, I was listening to piece talking about Bush's victory over Gore (if you want to talk about stolen elections maybe start there Q Shaman and assorted dickheads) as a sliding doors moment that got us here. They also mentioned Ruth BG not stepping down under Obama when she knew she had months to live so he could make the pick but she wanted to hang on for Hilary, plus candidate Obama's stated priority of codifying the right to abortion being brushed under the carpet as soon as he's in and Pelosi's poem and crocodile tears when firmer action could have been taken years ago. The system is tragic.
Hang on for Hillary, this was idiotic, and you know she had lost the plot there, Hillary was never winning and becoming President, America will not have a woman as President (voted in anyway, Harris could if something happens to Joe Biden) in my or probably anyone's lifetime.

RBG has to take the blame there for being egotistic enough to think that her mindset was the right one.
 

Rob

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Hang on for Hillary, this was idiotic, and you know she had lost the plot there, Hillary was never winning and becoming President, America will not have a woman as President (voted in anyway, Harris could if something happens to Joe Biden) in my or probably anyone's lifetime.

RBG has to take the blame there for being egotistic enough to think that her mindset was the right one.
Not that I disagree with you regarding RBG, but Hillary did get 3 million more votes than Trump.

Only because of Americas archaic way of doing things did she not win in a landslide.
 

WI_Red

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Not that I disagree with you regarding RBG, but Hillary did get 3 million more votes than Trump.

Only because of Americas archaic way of doing things did she not win in a landslide.
She also ran one of the worst campaigns in my memory. Ignoring the midwest and assuming those states were in the bag was (and proved to be) suicidal.
 

Peter van der Gea

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I’m not talking about genes.

I’m talking about being ‘pro-life’ in terms of supporting children during development and ensuring that cases where parents cause 60 odd fractures to their children, or deliberately poison, or crush them with car seats, is kept to an absolutely minimum.

Because I know that no matter what, my wife and I would have given our proverbial right arm to have been given the gift that they had repeatedly squandered. But I suppose that some are happy to see headlines about tortured children in order to keep peoples’ precious freedom.
The children would have been tortured no matter the freedoms.

Life doesn't work that way. You can't tell which parents will become abusers and which will take the worst parts of their lives and turn it into fertilizer for their roses.

I understand that you and your wife have tried really hard for children, but that still doesn't stop you from having the potential to abuse. Love and emotional disregulation are not opposing things, they can be happening at the same time.

Mate, I am a child abuse survivor, stories like Star's, Baby P's and Arthur's are my story, except I stayed alive, somehow, and got out. I still get flashbacks and night terrors, my last suicide attempt was just over 3 months ago. I've been having therapy for some years now. And my mum was a good mum, to my sisters, its just something broke inside her around the same time I needed her the most and the two got linked.

I'm a good dad, but everyone has a history, and no matter how hard anyone tries, the past is only as far away as your most recent memory of it. Time doesn't work linearly.

We've had the social services in our children's lives since before they can remember. And while my kids have been watched like hawks, kids like Star, Arthur and Baby P have died by the hands of their parents.

I don't raise my voice to my kids, I don't swear in front of them and I have never, and will never, strike them. But because, away from them and my wife, I have tried to commit suicide on a number of occasions, my children are 'kept' children. It means that for the last few months, I've only been allowed supervised contact with them a couple of times a week. I will change this, but it's a fecking tough battle.

Its what they call proactive intervention. Doing what you think, they think because of my past their is a chance that my mother's mistakes will echo through me, despite any evidence to that. It's actually the opposite, I parent in the exact opposite way that my mum did and my daughters are happy, confident, rounded women.

The government have looked at the balance of probabilities and determined that its worth spending millions of pounds monitoring my family. The fact that I'm brown and Baby P's, Star's and Arthur's parents are all white, lends credence to systematic racism in social services, and these are the people you want vetting potential parents before they have children? Knowing that some people crumble with the pressure of parenting and others thrive?

I am not talking about genes either, that's nature, I'm talking about how we nurture kids. I'm sorry to say, the likely hood is that your daughter will be traumatised at some point, hope not or hopefully not more than once, but it's how you deal with the traumas and safeguard as much as you can. Just as every foetus has the potential of being a human, every person has the potential of being a good parent. In both cases, you don't know until birth.

I know this is a very emotive subject, just as the abortion debate is, but both come down to the same thing, freedom of choice.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Got to ask why these rich arseholes give a fk about abortions because its nothing to do with pro life thats for sure. Maybe to stop the population decline? Although everyone thinks less people the better. Its actually not good for the economy. They need the labor pool for their sweat shops and not a population of geriatrics that take resources. Thats probably their thinking, Im thinking.
Think you are giving many of these nut jobs far too much credit. They are told what to believe due to a male believe man in the sky who hides their own insecurities. They are brainwashed to believe these things, very little conscious thought to it, in my opinion.
 

LDUred

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Abortion, in my opinion, is simply wrong. The same as destroying any nascent life is wrong.

The fact that the foetus is not yet a fully-fledged human being is irrelevant. It is life in its most vulnerable form and in its most invioble state (within a womb) being killed.

Yes, there are cases where the life of the mother may be jeopardized by giving birth, but the act of killing foetuses is one that we should not just casually dismiss as a society, nor encourage.

There is a wider issue of rape culture and promiscuity that leads to unwanted pregnancies and to some degree necessitates birth control. Again, it is up to us to fix that. We need, as a society, to stop promoting casual flings and Tinder-dates as being part of who we are as a people. We have to stress the importance and sanctity of settled relationships and building a family.

It's anyone's guess as to why we don't do that anyway, especially when it is to everyone's benefit. We don't encourage people to smoke cigarettes and we limit alcohol advertising, so why don't we advise people, particularly at a young age, to get married and have a family. Instead we genuflect culturally to a kind of degrading hedonism that leaves people broken, mentally damaged, and isolated. Some of these people have to convince themselves, against inevitable doubts, that they were right to abort an unborn child that they had conceived and succoured, a life that relied exclusively on them and survived and existed only because of them.

The level of mental trauma that must exist for doctors and mothers who go through abortions cannot be underestimated.
 
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Carolina Red

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Abortion, in my opinion, is simply wrong. The same as destroying any nascent life is wrong.

The fact that the foetus is not yet a fully-fledged human being is irrelevant. It is life in its most vulnerable form and in its most invioble state (within a womb) being killed.

Yes, there are cases where the life of the mother may be jeopardized by giving birth, but the act of killing foetuses is one that we should not just casually dismiss as a society, nor encourage.

There is a wider issue of rape culture and promiscuity that leads to unwanted pregnancies and to some degree necessitates birth control. Again, it is up to us to fix that. We need, as a society, to stop promoting casual flings and Tinder-dates as being part of who we are as a people. We have to stress the importance and sanctity of settled relationships and building a family.

It's anyone's guess as to why we don't do that anyway, especially when it is to everyone's benefit. We don't encourage people to smoke cigarettes and we limit alcohol advertising, so why don't we advise people, particularly at a young age, to get married and have a family. Instead we genuflect culturally to a kind of degrading hedonism that leaves people broken, mentally damaged, and isolated. Some of these people have to convince themselves, against inevitable doubts, that they were right to abort an unborn child that they had conceived and succoured.
The Victorian Era has entered the chat.
 

Peter van der Gea

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Abortion, in my opinion, is simply wrong. The same as destroying any nascent life is wrong.

The fact that the foetus is not yet a human is irrelevant. It is life in its most vulnerable form and in its most invioble state (within a womb) being killed.

Yes, there are cases where the life of the mother may be jeopardized by giving birth, but the act of killing foetuses is one that we should not just casually dismiss as a society, nor encourage.

There is a wider issue of rape culture and promiscuity that leads to unwanted pregnancies and to some degree necessitates birth control. Again, it is up to us to fix that. We need, as a society, to stop promoting casual flings and Tinder-dates as being part of who we are as a people. We have to stress the importance and sanctity of settled relationships and building a family.

It's anyone's guess as to why we don't do that anyway, especially when it is to everyone's benefit. We don't encourage people to smoke cigarettes and we limit alcohol advertising, so why don't we advise people, particularly at a young age, to get married and have a family. Instead we genuflect culturally to a kind of degrading hedonism that leaves people broken, mentally damaged, and isolated.
Your opinion, in my opinion, is wrong. Your weird logic, in my opinion, is wrong. Your belief in the nuclear family, in my opinion, is wrong. Your right to choose whether you get married, have kids, fornicate like a bonobo chimp or have an abortion is yours.
 

RedSky

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Appreciate your honest thoughts here. It doesn't sound harsh at all. I find that most people don't have a genuine empathy or sincere sense of the value of life for other humans let alone other species.

We're a species that commits genocide on its own and rationalizes it. We also actively destroy our habitat in a way that preempts extinction. Our superiority as the dominant land mammal doesn't make us more valuable in any objective way. I would even go so far as to say the opposite view has more merit - that humans are the least valuable on the planet and whose demise would do the most good for the planet and beyond.

But that's digressing. I understand why you don't value animal life the same way as human life and why you find the lives of unborn to be so important as to dictate the life of a matured human.
Humans kill each other on a regular basis, are known to rape children and kill children, force children into slavery and into the sex trade. I don't understand his opinion at all, he's turning a blind eye to all the horrific things humans do to each other on a fairly common basis.
 

nimic

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We need, as a society, to stop promoting casual flings and Tinder-dates as being part of who we are as a people. We have to stress the importance and sanctity of settled relationships and building a family.
Why? The answer can't have anything to do with abortion, since the abortion rates in many (possibly most) countries in the West are lower than they've been in decades.

Instead we genuflect culturally to a kind of degrading hedonism that leaves people broken, mentally damaged, and isolated.
This is reactionary and unhistorical, to be frank.
 

shamans

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Abortion, in my opinion, is simply wrong. The same as destroying any nascent life is wrong.

The fact that the foetus is not yet a fully-fledged human being is irrelevant. It is life in its most vulnerable form and in its most invioble state (within a womb) being killed.

Yes, there are cases where the life of the mother may be jeopardized by giving birth, but the act of killing foetuses is one that we should not just casually dismiss as a society, nor encourage.

There is a wider issue of rape culture and promiscuity that leads to unwanted pregnancies and to some degree necessitates birth control. Again, it is up to us to fix that. We need, as a society, to stop promoting casual flings and Tinder-dates as being part of who we are as a people. We have to stress the importance and sanctity of settled relationships and building a family.

It's anyone's guess as to why we don't do that anyway, especially when it is to everyone's benefit. We don't encourage people to smoke cigarettes and we limit alcohol advertising, so why don't we advise people, particularly at a young age, to get married and have a family. Instead we genuflect culturally to a kind of degrading hedonism that leaves people broken, mentally damaged, and isolated. Some of these people have to convince themselves, against inevitable doubts, that they were right to abort an unborn child that they had conceived and succoured, a life that relied exclusively on them and survived and existed only because of them.

The level of mental trauma that must exist for doctors and mothers who go through abortions cannot be underestimated.
I'm only going to agree with the promiscuity comment. I agree it's bad for mental health to lead a life that way and mostly results in pain and long term mental issues but I think that's not related to abortion.

I'd imagine it's the educated and liberal population more open to hookup culture and as a result they have better access to birth control.

Usually the sort of schools and neighborhoods where girls are getting knocked up at young ages are very low income and lack education. So for abortion I think being 'not promiscuous' doesn't matter but in general I think hookup culture is damaging for sure. Probably a topic for another thread.

I think we'll come to realize it in time like how smoking was seen as a non issue. I think porn will go that way as well where eventually we find out it's harm. But again I think the implications are personal mental health not related to abortions or murder or anything
 

Mike Smalling

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I think we'll come to realize it in time like how smoking was seen as a non issue. I think porn will go that way as well where eventually we find out it's harm. But again I think the implications are personal mental health not related to abortions or murder or anything
Isn't there already tons of studies proving this? I don't think it's particularly controversial to say that easy access to porn, particularly for younger male adults, have harmful effects. It's just gonna be incredibly hard to fix, because there is a demand for it, money can be made from it, and it is super easy to distribute over the internet.
 

shamans

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Isn't there already tons of studies proving this? I don't think it's particularly controversial to say that easy access to porn, particularly for younger male adults, have harmful effects. It's just gonna be incredibly hard to fix, because there is a demand for it, money can be made from it, and it is super easy to distribute over the internet.
I don't know last I checked it's all theories without scientific backing (that I subscribe to) but I think eventually with enoguh data we'll get there.

I think porn and masterbation is seen as harmless for the most part which they probably are biologically but mentally it's so easy to fall into an addiction due to the ease of access.
 

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We need, as a society, to stop promoting casual flings and Tinder-dates as being part of who we are as a people. We have to stress the importance and sanctity of settled relationships and building a family.
:lol: