African players playing for European countries

do.ob

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Yes privilege like most economic inputs has a point of optimal marginal utility and now, I'm arguing it might actually be yielding diminishing returns. You say players are better but let's focus on England, and who are these players who can measure up to Gerrard, Scholes, Beckham, Owen, the Coles, and co?? Sure they might be more balanced in their basic skills but the real talent isn't visible anymore. These are mechanical footballers today.

Your second question is moot because we agree that African players may not be the best per se, what we disagree on is why. But even at that, such a question is a little strange as there are lots of African players who've come out from the youth system and taken Europe by storm.

Victor Osimhen - 10 goals and record u17 world cup top scorer straight from high school. he wasn't even in a formal national coaching program, and was recruited to the national u17 team from open trials.

Kelechi Iheanacho - granted he petered off a bit, but went Straight to Man city for big money from a nigerian academy

John Mikel Obi, went straight from a Nigerian Acadmey to being rated second best player behind Messi at the youth world cup in 2005 (or so), and you know the battle for his signature that followed.

These are just the Nigerian ones.
Osimhen spent his first 18 months in Europe at Wolfsburg, where he played a combined ~300 minutes without recording a single goal or assist. He then loaned out to Belgium and only when he was 21 did he have his first good season in a big league, Mikel spent his first two years in Europe at FK Lyn in Norway. Iheanacho cost City 1 million, that's hardly a big commitment by their standards - the same summer they spent four times as much for 16 year old Angelino. Two of those examples actually show the opposite, if anything and even if they didn't three players over close to 20 years doesn't speak for much.

And if modern footballers are "mechanical" as you put it, it's because modern coaches want their players to be that way.

Speaking in general it's just common sense to me that the more focused attention and guidance you give to a child the easier it will find it to develop its skills and I don't see how millions pumped into youth football would only yield minimal advantages. An example to highlight the disparity would be Otto Addo, in the African system he's Ghana's head coach, in Europe he's a "talent coach", whose only job it is to mentor a few select talents at Dortmund. A while ago I read that Bradley Fink, by no means in the top tier category of talents, uses a personal trainer in his spare time to improve on his weaknesses in 1on1 sessions, on top of all the work he does at the club. You think all that doesn't have a clear effect? Even within Europe we can clearly see significant differences in the effectiveness of youth development.

I wouldn't say that African footballers are flat out worse, but it seems obvious to me that their privileged European counter parts have a significant head start over them and the African kids have to play catch up for a few years even after they move to Europe. Hence even all-time greats such as Mane and Salah having to move up the ladder step by step until their mid 20s, before catching their big break, hence someone like Osimhen flopping at Wolfsburg.
 

The Original

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Osimhen spent his first 18 months in Europe at Wolfsburg, where he played a combined ~300 minutes without recording a single goal or assist. He then loaned out to Belgium and only when he was 21 did he have his first good season in a big league, Mikel spent his first two years in Europe at FK Lyn in Norway. Iheanacho cost City 1 million, that's hardly a big commitment by their standards - the same summer they spent four times as much for 16 year old Angelino. Two of those examples actually show the opposite, if anything and even if they didn't three players over close to 20 years doesn't speak for much.

And if modern footballers are "mechanical" as you put it, it's because modern coaches want their players to be that way.

Speaking in general it's just common sense to me that the more focused attention and guidance you give to a child the easier it will find it to develop its skills and I don't see how millions pumped into youth football would only yield minimal advantages. An example to highlight the disparity would be Otto Addo, in the African system he's Ghana's head coach, in Europe he's a "talent coach", whose only job it is to mentor a few select talents at Dortmund. A while ago I read that Bradley Fink, by no means in the top tier category of talents, uses a personal trainer in his spare time to improve on his weaknesses in 1on1 sessions, on top of all the work he does at the club. You think all that doesn't have a clear effect? Even within Europe we can clearly see significant differences in the effectiveness of youth development.

I wouldn't say that African footballers are flat out worse, but it seems obvious to me that their privileged European counter parts have a significant head start over them and the African kids have to play catch up for a few years even after they move to Europe. Hence even all-time greats such as Mane and Salah having to move up the ladder step by step until their mid 20s, before catching their big break, hence someone like Osimhen flopping at Wolfsburg.

Osimhen moved to Wolfsburg at 18. He was loaned to Charleroi almost immediately, at 19, where he scored 19 league goals. It seems obvious (he's spoken about it anyway) how a young palyer might struggle to adapt to Europe, to a different level of professional football, and etc. That has nothing to do with catching up as he barely played football in that time. As you've noted.

Iheanacho moved from a Nigerian academy for #1 million as you say, and you're comparing that to some other player. Clearly, African clubs do not expect anything near what European clubs demand for a young player, and not for that much. In any case, the emphasis should be on the fact that once introduced into the first team, he immediately went on to establish the best goal scoring ratio in Europe.

Mikel Obi moved to Lyn Oslo in 2004 at 17 but in reality, this was at Chelsea's behest, as he had already trained with them. Meanwhile, Man United signed that infamous contract by 2005 when he was 18. So from Plateau United's academy, Chelsea recruited him and Man Uniuted came sniffing a year later. All the while he played a total of 6 games at Lyn, so again, where is the catching up in football terms? By 2005 he had made his name at the Youth World Cup where he was second best to Messi.

What is common to all three that you've not picked up on, is that they significantly outshone their European peers on the global stage, coming directly from local academies. That alone is enough to dispel any questions of the quality of football training received at source. Any periods of adjustment had nothing to do with skill, but with normal adjustment every player goes through, particularly changing continents with no family support whatsoever at that age.

Now, that's three random examples from one country alone, so I don't know why you would conclude that it was meant to be an exhaustive list. Did you provide an exhaustive list of European talents? There are many more.
 

NinjaZombie

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The reason African countries have not won a WC is because despite there being a lot of top quality African players, they don't all play for the same African country. The European countries have both quality and quantity.

Another reason is Luis Suarez, that rat faced cheat. :lol:
 

JPRouve

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The reason African countries have not won a WC is because despite there being a lot of top quality African players, they don't all play for the same African country. The European countries have both quality and quantity.

Another reason is Luis Suarez, that rat faced cheat. :lol:
Are you suggesting that there is +52 countries in Africa?
 

Bennz McCarthey17

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I'm in that situation, I know dozens of people in the same situation and no one shares the view that you shared. For everyone that I know it's extremely simple, people feel that they are from the place they are born and/or grew up, the heritage that you get from your parents is a bonus, it adds to your identity it's not what primarily defines you, you don't have to lose anything.
Are you African, as in a black African, with both African parents?, and do you have any siblings, family that your parents left behind here in Africa?. To be honest with you, millions of African immigrants feel this way. Even say Zimbabweans who are born here in South Africa, with both Zimbabwean parents, identify more as Zimbabweans than South Africans. That goes for Nigerians, Ghanaians etc. I have never talked to any African brother who lives here in South Africa, who dreams to play for us than their mother country. Its a cultural thing, I'm interested to know where your parents come from, from Africa. Its way deeper than Football I promise you that.
 

JPRouve

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Are you African, as in a black African, with both African parents?, and do you have any siblings, family that your parents left behind here in Africa?. To be honest with you, millions of African immigrants feel this way. Even say Zimbabweans who are born here in South Africa, with both Zimbabwean parents, identify more as Zimbabweans than South Africans. That goes for Nigerians, Ghanaians etc. I have never talked to any African brother who lives here in South Africa, who dreams to play for us than their mother country. Its a cultural thing, I'm interested to know where your parents come from, from Africa. Its way deeper than Football I promise you that.
I'm mixed and yes I have family in Africa, I spent summers in Africa almost every years. I would have agreed with you if you said that africans do not joke about their ethnicity and will never swap it, but nationality? Absolutely not. The majority of people I know that are born in an african country from parents that are from an other country identify to the country they grew up in, many that are grew up in a country but are born in an other identify as nationals of the country they grew up with or the country they have the most affinity with. There is no strict rule, it's an individual decision.

Now I have friendly counter examples to your claim, where is Mtawarira born? What is the current talk in South Africa regarding Tambwe and Tshituka which country are they trying to represent? :D
 

Bennz McCarthey17

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I'm mixed and yes I have family in Africa, I spent summers in Africa almost every years. I would have agreed with you if you said that africans do not joke about their ethnicity and will never swap it, but nationality? Absolutely not. The majority of people I know that are born in an african country from parents that are from an other country identify to the country they grew up in, many that are grew up in a country but are born in an other identify as nationals of the country they grew up with or the country they have the most affinity with. There is no strict rule, it's an individual decision.

Now I have friendly counter examples to your claim, where is Mtawarira born? What is the current talk in South Africa regarding Tambwe and Tshituka which country are they trying to represent? :D
You're mixed, meaning you dont have a clue about what I was talking about. That disqualifies you. I guess You could have an African Father/Mother and British Mother/Father. There are too many factors that play a part in you choosing to represent a Country you were born in, compared to someone who has both african parents, but was born in another Country. Infact you have the nice privilege to choose the country of one of your parents that you were born into anyway. And 9/10 times, it's a European Country or North American Country. Not much of a hard choice is there.

As for Beast. Zimbabwe literally has no Rugby team.

You sound like you dont know much about Africa. Which is no dig at you, cause you probably know waay more about the country you were born in.:)
 

JPRouve

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You're mixed, meaning you dont have a clue about what I was talking about. That disqualifies you. I guess You could have an African Father/Mother and British Mother/Father. There are too many factors that play a part in you choosing to represent a Country you were born in, compared to someone who has both african parents, but was born in another Country. Infact you have the nice privilege to choose the country of one of your parents that you were born into anyway. And 9/10 times, it's a European Country or North American Country. Not much of a hard choice is there.

As for Beast. Zimbabwe literally has no Rugby team.

You sound like you dont know much about Africa. Which is no dig at you, cause you probably know waay more about the country you were born in.:)
You know nothing about me and seemingly know very little about africans outside of yourself. You also know nothing about Rugby, who are currently the 27th nation in the IRB ranking?
 

paraguayo

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He says that but Éder scorer of goal was born in Guine Bissau and portugal would'nt have an Euros
 
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Needham

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He says that but Éder scorer of goal was born in Guine Bissau and portugal would'nt have an Euros
Eder won't the early bus forum had means to Bambaata and the soul sonic force. Too many people misunderfascinate African plays mistake them for legions of rounds qualificatory. In 1990 WC opening game Cannigia hair dropem lyke a mowse but still knock out by England unfair cheat wrongness and a relatively progressive co-comms line up of let them be for fecks sake. But agree Portugal would'nt have an Euros.
 

justsomebloke

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It's not actually entirely clear from the tweets what exactly Mourinho is saying. If he means that players who move to another country at a young age to play football and then becomes citizens of that country and join their national team, then that's I think a legitimate debate. Obviously it's tough to draw a precise line that gets it right in every case, with all the inherent complexity of such situations. But personally I think it makes sense that the country you play for should be "yours" in a more meaningful sense than just having moved there because of football. Are there really a lot of such cases though? Jorginho springs to mind, and that Brazilian FB playing for Russia, but I can't think of a lot of examples.

A bigger issue to me is players representing countries they have only the most tenuous link to, like Matty Cash playing for Poland, a country he hadn't even visited if I remember correctly.

I think what would make sense is if you can only play for countries in which you have citizenship (preferably predating your first football contract), and that you also are not allowed to switch teams, with a very early cut-off point. I realise there are strong incentives to give players and teams as much flexibility as possible to enable as many good players as possible to play in international competitions, but the way it is it just seems a bit absurd sometimes. Like, Aymeric Laporte is suddenly Spanish now?

If what he's saying is that a player who was born in (say) France or moved there at a very young age, grew up in France, was trained as a footballer in France and is a French citizen shouldn't be allowed to play for France, then that is just absurd. Obviously, so is having separate rules for African players or players of African descent, if that's what he means.
 

Stacks

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You're mixed, meaning you dont have a clue about what I was talking about. That disqualifies you. I guess You could have an African Father/Mother and British Mother/Father. There are too many factors that play a part in you choosing to represent a Country you were born in, compared to someone who has both african parents, but was born in another Country. Infact you have the nice privilege to choose the country of one of your parents that you were born into anyway. And 9/10 times, it's a European Country or North American Country. Not much of a hard choice is there.

As for Beast. Zimbabwe literally has no Rugby team.

You sound like you dont know much about Africa. Which is no dig at you, cause you probably know waay more about the country you were born in.:)
what about me? My DNA says I am 93% African (Nigerian, Cameroon, Ivorian, Ghanian, Seneghal, Malian) but partially European Jew (Eastern Europe), Norwegian, 4% Scottish so who can I play for and what qualifies you?
 

JJ12

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what about me? My DNA says I am 93% African (Nigerian, Cameroon, Ivorian, Ghanian, Seneghal, Malian) but partially European Jew (Eastern Europe), Norwegian, 4% Scottish so who can I play for and what qualifies you?
Id probably pick Norway to play with Haaland
 

criticalanalysis

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what about me? My DNA says I am 93% African (Nigerian, Cameroon, Ivorian, Ghanian, Seneghal, Malian) but partially European Jew (Eastern Europe), Norwegian, 4% Scottish so who can I play for and what qualifies you?
Pick any European Country, you're not a "full" African:lol:

It's like very remotely related but I just wanted to post because funnies.
 

Bennz McCarthey17

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You know nothing about me and seemingly know very little about africans outside of yourself. You also know nothing about Rugby, who are currently the 27th nation in the IRB ranking?
Im 1000 percent sure I know much much more Rugby than you. You dont even wanna test me there. You sound like a young kid too. You need to spend more than summers in Africa to get the gist of what being an African means to us Africans. I will never be taught by the likes of you about Africa. Im in Africa everyday. I have lived, live, am friends with Africans from other countries, Not a single one of us would represent each others countries because we are "born" there. Get out of here.

That Zimbabwean Rugby Team is as good as non existent. Im sure you dont even know 1 single player there. You dont even know when last they played a game. Go google that. And act like a know it all.

And next time if you do not want things to be personal, dont make them personal to begin with. Enjoy the Country you were born into.
 

Bennz McCarthey17

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It's like very remotely related but I just wanted to post because funnies. [/QUOTE said:
Yeah its funny until 'your country of birth' is in the European final, and you miss a penalty, and you get told to go back to Africa, or when you're a Mario Balotelli, and the people from the country you were born into start telling you, you're not Italian. And they make monkey chants at the stadiums you play in. In this same country you represent 'proudly'.