James Garner

Yagami · Jul 31, 2022

Pogue Mahone said:
First game of pre-season and it showed. Was understandably rusty and not really at the pace of the game.

But let’s ignore all of that and decide he’s a fraud who was never good enough. Sell him now!

Except I'm not basing it one meaningless game. I'm basing it off of years of watching him throughout various levels of football.

I'm sure we'll regret not cashing in on him. The more he plays, the more people will realise he's not good enough.

Carl · Jul 31, 2022

Gurtej said:
Sell, stop over hyping our players and get whatever we can when stock is high..

him, Brandon Williams, Elanga, Shortie, chong etc … get whatever we can!!

Weird to throw Shoretire in with that group.

Billy Jim · Jul 31, 2022

Idxomer said:
Which was the case in his loan with Forrest though tbf he can play a decent long ball forward.

Yeah I watched a few of his games last season and started noticing it. Seems a good reader of the game off the ball but lacks that natural guile and composure that a top midfielder needs to have.

avgp_1 · Jul 31, 2022

When you look at how good Skipp and Gilmour were on their loans at Norwich or Gallagher at Swansea, and compare it with Garner's at Forest you'd realise how far off he is from being a top 6 level midfielder. I think Forest have upgraded with O Brien in fact for their PL campaign

Trequarista10 · Jul 31, 2022

I think people are picking up on the fact he often plays it safe - I think it's actually a result of him generally looking for a threatening through ball option, and if its not on he plays it safe. Certainly at this level he'll need to mix it up more, look for one twos, short forward passes, or create different angles with a turn.

Too early to make a definitive judgement still. Its pre season, he's 21, new to the first team and new to this level, nobody knows if he will or won't improve yet. Plenty of youngsters who look they will don't, and plenty who look like they won't who do.

Yagami · Jul 31, 2022

avgp_1 said:
When you look at how good Skipp and Gilmour were on their loans at Norwich or Gallagher at Swansea, and compare it with Garner's at Forest you'd realise how far off he is from being a top 6 level midfielder. I think Forest have upgraded with O Brien in fact for their PL campaign

Lewis O'Brien? Definitely an upgrade. Agree with the rest as well.

Tarrou · Jul 31, 2022

Yagami said:
Except I'm not basing it one meaningless game. I'm basing it off of years of watching him throughout various levels of football.

I'm sure we'll regret not cashing in on him. The more he plays, the more people will realise he's not good enough.

I agree with this but really hoping I’m wrong

Trex · Jul 31, 2022

He was "the third midfielder" in a midfield that includes VDB, not bad but compared to what Zidane did when he came on not impressive.

Skills · Jul 31, 2022

Our academy seems to produce very weird midfielders. McTominay, Cleverly, Garner - they just don't seem to want to impose themselves on the game with possession.

Definitely needs some work in the youth development department.

mu4c_20le · Jul 31, 2022

avgp_1 said:
When you look at how good Skipp and Gilmour were on their loans at Norwich or Gallagher at Swansea, and compare it with Garner's at Forest you'd realise how far off he is from being a top 6 level midfielder. I think Forest have upgraded with O Brien in fact for their PL campaign

Wasn't Gilmour so bad at times that he got jeered by the Norwich fans?

khoazany · Jul 31, 2022

Thought he had a decent game all things considered. Obviously that a midfield 3 of him and Eriksen + VdB aren’t gonna work but this is a game for fitness and our 3 first choices started yesterday so…

Iqbal came on when we had more controls of that midfield, and they have different kind of quality.

Cassidy · Jul 31, 2022

khoazany said:
Thought he has a decent game all things considered. Obviously that a midfield 3 of him and Eriksen + VdB aren’t gonna work. Iqbal came on when we had more controls of that midfield, and they have different kind of quality.

Iqbal was the reason we gained more control

AltiUn · Jul 31, 2022

Skills said:
Our academy seems to produce very weird midfielders. McTominay, Cleverly, Garner - they just don't seem to want to impose themselves on the game with possession.

Definitely needs some work in the youth development department.

Same with Angel Gomes and Shola Shoretire. The youth cup winners are the complete opposite, I think we’ll get a few first teamers out of that group.

DWelbz19 · Jul 31, 2022

Much like Laird, he’s had a few good championship loans, but nothing has transpired for us on the limited occasions either have played for us. I think both will probably end up PL level in the end, but I don’t think it’ll be here. Bit absolutist, I know, but just a feeling seeing them play.

avgp_1 · Jul 31, 2022

mu4c_20le said:
Wasn't Gilmour so bad at times that he got jeered by the Norwich fans?

It was harsh on a young player in a struggling team, played safe in a dysfunctional setup. He
still had some great games on the ball. Basically got punished for being a loan player from the fans but his quality shown through quite a few times

Forest Red · Jul 31, 2022

What have you done to him! You’ve had him back for a couple of weeks and ruined him. Poor lad. seriously, Surely you can’t write him off after a kids/bomb squad game?

Santoryo · Jul 31, 2022

I'm done over hyping our youth. Unless they show tremendous talent coming out of the academy like a Greenwood, Januzaj(who didn't make it not due to lack of talent but attitude) then I'm not getting hyped at all.

This place overrate every single one of our academy who get invited to train with the first team sometimes. They don't show anything special yet this place will hype them to haven then when they're put on stage they don't show even flashes.

Unless I see a talent at the level of a Greenwood, Januzaj, I'm not batting an eye.

Santoryo · Jul 31, 2022

bosnian_red said:
Sigh. We'll need to be patient with him. He has some very good qualities but whenever he's appeared for the first team, he looks like he just reverts to playing in a shell and is scared to try anything.

Played 75 minutes today but honestly don't remember him doing a single thing

I remember him passing the ball back to Ronaldo something like 5 times, scared and refusing to take any responsibility and wasn't brave enough to do anything with the ball beside few yards passes.

Trequarista10 · Jul 31, 2022

theatreofdreams777 said:
The difference between him & Iqbal is clear as day. Garner are in that group of not good enough along with Laird, Pellistri, Chong, Williams, Elanga, Shoretire etc. Only Garnacho & Iqbal worth giving opportunities.

Shoretire? Weird one to include.

Drainy · Jul 31, 2022

avgp_1 said:
I think Forest have upgraded with O Brien in fact for their PL campaign

You mean the player who was outplayed in the final by Garner, who won the man of the match?

Skills · Jul 31, 2022

Santoryo said:
I'm done over hyping our youth. Unless they show tremendous talent coming out of the academy like a Greenwood, Januzaj(who didn't make it not due to lack of talent but attitude) then I'm not getting hyped at all.

This place overrate every single one of our academy who get invited to train with the first team sometimes. They don't show anything special yet this place will hype them to haven then when they're put on stage they don't show even flashes.

Unless I see a talent at the level of a Greenwood, Januzaj, I'm not batting an eye.

I think it's just the case the average football fan is genuinely shockingly poor at knowing how good the average premier league pro is. They don't realise how hard it's to actually make a top level career, so you see ridiculous expectations from crops of youth players.

I would happily bet, from each youth cohort you'll get maximum 1 player who's good enough to have a squad career at Man Utd, and another 1 who'll end up with a solid PL career. The rest will eventually end up in the scrap of the lower leagues.

marcus agrippa · Jul 31, 2022

Yagami said:
I'm the opposite. He's not good enough and never was going to be. We need to cash in on players who still have value. Like I said with Donny who will go for peanuts eventually when we could've recouped some of his fee when people still rated him.

My comment is not directed at Garner especially, because he's just back from injury, but I agree re: cashing in ASAP on players who aren't really going to make it here, or been underwhelming. We need to be more decisive and quicker. I'm thinking of the likes of Chong. Donny's shown little to nothing all preseason, but I reckon his stock is so low now that we'd struggle to recoup much of our original outlay. Bailly is another.

Santoryo · Jul 31, 2022

Skills said:
I think it's just the case the average football fan is genuinely shockingly poor at knowing how good the average premier league pro is. They don't realise how hard it's to actually make a top level career, so you see ridiculous expectations from crops of youth players.

I would happily bet, from each youth cohort you'll get maximum 1 player who's good enough to have a squad career at Man Utd, and another 1 who'll end up with a solid PL career. The rest will eventually end up in the scrap of the lower leagues.

Pretty much this.

A youth has got to show talent that far separate them from the pack for them to have a chance at United first team.

They've got to have quality that leaves one in wow seeing them in the youth team and when they show in the first team, despite their inexperience they'll still show flashes due to their enormous talent. We'd seen that with Adnan and Greenwood right away. It's unfortunate things didn't work out with them but it wasn't due to the lack of talent or abilities on their parts.

Forest Red · Jul 31, 2022

Drainy said:
You mean the player who was outplayed in the final by Garner, who won the man of the match?

Garner and o’brien are different players - If anything LO’B is Jack Colbacks replacement. A big part of our recruiting has been about providing options from the sub bench now that we can make 5 Subs.

Games like today are taylor made for the talented eye catching individual players. Jimmy’s game relies on partnerships and understanding the players around him.

avgp_1 · Jul 31, 2022

Drainy said:
You mean the player who was outplayed in the final by Garner, who won the man of the match?

I just dont go by one-off matches, I have seen quite a bit of them both. O'Brien has beautiful balance and dribbling, high energy, something that will be highlighted even more at the top level. Garner in the final was more about keeping possession ,set pieces and crosses, one of which led to the winning goal, which I admit he is very good at. He is very good defensively as well. But overall I believe O' Brien is the better player

OrcaFat · Jul 31, 2022

I’m glad he played 6 today. I don’t think he’s going to make it but I’d love to be wrong.

Marwood · Jul 31, 2022

Santoryo said:
Pretty much this.

A youth has got to show talent that far separate them from the pack for them to have a chance at United first team.

They've got to have quality that leaves one in wow seeing them in the youth team and when they show in the first team, despite their inexperience they'll still show flashes due to their enormous talent. We'd seen that with Adnan and Greenwood right away. It's unfortunate things didn't work out with them but it wasn't due to the lack of talent or abilities on their parts.

I think the bigger problem with expectation levels is just the sheer amount of analysis in general.

Because we can now watch most youth games, most on loan games and we now have places like this, teenagers are now assessed by fans on a game by game basis.

It's too much really, players being written off or hyped depending how their last appearance went.

I bet very few saw the class of '92 until they were 20/21 and breaking into the first team.

Big Ben Foster · Jul 31, 2022

Santoryo said:
I'm done over hyping our youth. Unless they show tremendous talent coming out of the academy like a Greenwood, Januzaj(who didn't make it not due to lack of talent but attitude) then I'm not getting hyped at all.

This place overrate every single one of our academy who get invited to train with the first team sometimes. They don't show anything special yet this place will hype them to haven then when they're put on stage they don't show even flashes.

Unless I see a talent at the level of a Greenwood, Januzaj, I'm not batting an eye.

This. My litmus test usually is "if this player were on another team, would I want United to sign him?"

More often than not, the answer to that is no.

Marwood · Jul 31, 2022

Big Ben Foster said:
This. My litmus test usually is "if this player were on another team, would I want United to sign him?"

More often than not, the answer to that is no.

There are so many players who at one stage of their career would fail that test. Players who were great for us.

Trequarista10 · Jul 31, 2022

Forest Red said:
Surely you can’t write him off after a kids/bomb squad game?

Hi, you must be new here!

Forest Red · Jul 31, 2022

Trequarista10 said:
Hi, you must be new here!

To be fair it happens on our forum too - it’s all about opinions. I‘m just invested in Jimmy after him being brilliant for us last season. If he’s not coming back to Forest then I want the lad to make it at United.

Olecurls99 · Jul 31, 2022

Pogue Mahone said:
First game of pre-season and it showed. Was understandably rusty and not really at the pace of the game.

But let’s ignore all of that and decide he’s a fraud who was never good enough. Sell him now!

Yeah it all seems a bit excited and overly harsh in here to me.

Bondi77 · Jul 31, 2022

Yagami said:
I'm the opposite. He's not good enough and never was going to be. We need to cash in on players who still have value. Like I said with Donny who will go for peanuts eventually when we could've recouped some of his fee when people still rated him.

He was at Ajax when people rated him....not at Utd.

NoPace · Jul 31, 2022

Skills said:
Our academy seems to produce very weird midfielders. McTominay, Cleverly, Garner - they just don't seem to want to impose themselves on the game with possession.

Definitely needs some work in the youth development department.

Does feel a bit like we produce good Championship or okay lower Prem 6s and 8s and then we have a bunch of skillfull #10s who don't really have a position in modern football.

Bondi77 · Jul 31, 2022

Feck me!
If we paid 80mil for a player and he played like that we would be saying he needs time to settle.....give the young man a chance

Yagami · Jul 31, 2022

Skills said:
Our academy seems to produce very weird midfielders. McTominay, Cleverly, Garner - they just don't seem to want to impose themselves on the game with possession.

Definitely needs some work in the youth development department.

If you watch our youth teams, you can see we’ve been working on this.

McTominay, Cleverley and Garner never excelled under pressure at youth level which is why they aren’t good enough at senior level for us.

We now have a few cms in the academy who excel under pressure in the academy. Galbraith, Mejbri, Iqbal, Mainoo, Gore. They will take to senior football better because they are comfortable under pressure.

Bondi77 said:
He was at Ajax when people rated him....not at Utd.

There were still loads of people saying we were misusing Donny, and that he should be starting. The majority are only now just realising he’s rubbish.

Wing Attack Plan R · Jul 31, 2022

Forest Red said:
To be fair it happens on our forum too - it’s all about opinions. I‘m just invested in Jimmy after him being brilliant for us last season. If he’s not coming back to Forest then I want the lad to make it at United.

I'm with you. I've been watching Garner for years now and I think he's got what it takes to make the step up. ETH has to get his lineup figured out to know where Garner can play. With DeJong and without DeJong are two very different variations, but Garner has versatility as a 6 or an 8 and can play more defensively. Give him some time.

Wing Attack Plan R · Jul 31, 2022

Yagami said:
If you watch our youth teams, you can see we’ve been working on this.

McTominay, Cleverley and Garner never excelled under pressure at youth level which is why they aren’t good enough at senior level for us.

We now have a few cms in the academy who excel under pressure in the academy. Galbraith, Mejbri, Iqbal, Mainoo, Gore. They will take to senior football better because they are comfortable under pressure.

There were still loads of people saying we were misusing Donny, and that he should be starting. The majority are only now just realising he’s rubbish.

I think you're selling Cleverley short. He was very good for us at senior level before his injury. He never got back to his best after that, but pretending he wasn't good enough is just not accurate.

Trequarista10 · Jul 31, 2022

NoPace said:
Does feel a bit like we produce good Championship or okay lower Prem 6s and 8s and then we have a bunch of skillfull #10s who don't really have a position in modern football.

Good point. Is it a United thing or an English thing?

Very few top English midfielders. Even the good ones are kinda weird or not quite midfielders. Rice was a CB turned DM who drives with the ball. A ton of attacking mids like Maddison, Mount, Foden, Grealish, Smith-Rowe, Alli, Barkley who tend to play wide or off the front. Some journeyman workhorses like Milner and Henderson have found a niche under Klopp but wouldn't look out of place at Watford. A few tidy but unadventurous passers like Winks, Cleverly, Drinkwater have come and gone. Some young lads like Bellingham, Gallagher and Ramsey seem like old school box to box mids but question marks over their possession game to make at at the top level. Phillips looked like Pirlo in the Championship, in the Prem he looks like just another hatchet man but who can occasionally hit a 40 yard pass. Ward-Prowse looks like a Championship midfielder except for being one of the best dead ball specialists around.

We should probably just try and sign a couple Spanish 16 year olds every summer!

Edit:

Yagami said:
If you watch our youth teams, you can see we’ve been working on this.

McTominay, Cleverley and Garner never excelled under pressure at youth level which is why they aren’t good enough at senior level for us.

We now have a few cms in the academy who excel under pressure in the academy. Galbraith, Mejbri, Iqbal, Mainoo, Gore. They will take to senior football better because they are comfortable under pressure.

Thats reassuring, thanks. Are other English academies heading the same way or are United leading the pack?

Mickeza · Jul 31, 2022

Is Shoretire actually 22 or something? The absolute bollocks that’s been said about him today. Anyway, I’ve said for months I don’t think Garner is quite there yet physically and another loan will do him some good (if we actually sign a CM).

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