No Beer!

Sultan

Gentleness adorns everything
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
48,569
Location
Redcafe
Tarrou said:
I hope it will be different during the world cup but it isn't as simple as "do it in private" in Qatar.. people are arrested for their gender expression in public, have their phones searched and can then get detained.. and for example two men can't rent a hotel room for fear of being arrested
Click to expand...
They actually can book a hotel room.

"In May 2022 some hotels on FIFA's official list of recommended accommodations for the World Cup event were outright refusing to provide accommodations to same-sex couples, while other hotels on the list indicated they would accept reservations for same-sex couples so long as they hid their relationship in public.[30] FIFA claimed that it would ensure that the hotels mentioned are once again made aware of the strict requirements in relation to welcoming guests in a non-discriminatory manner.[31] During a press conference in Germany on May 20, the Emir of Qatar Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani stated that the LGBT visitors would be welcomed to the 2022 World Cup but they need to respect the nation’s culture.[32]

On 21 September 2022, According to a report by The Guardian, FA (Football Association) has assured LGBT+ couples will not face arrest while holding hands or kissing in public in Qatar. FA has also declared that fans with rainbow flags will not face arrest as long as they do not “disrespect” the local culture and norms by draping flags over mosques in Qatar.[33][3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Qatar"
 

Fully Fledged

Full Member
Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
16,180
Location
Midlands UK
Sultan said:
It's not a terrible comparison. It's very apt. Basically, respect other people's cultures and faiths. If you are so against a certain country, its laws and cultures you are not forced to visit.

Gay or straight do it in private. That's what normal people do in the world.
Click to expand...
I respect anybody's culture and faith as long as it doesn't cause harm to another human-being but the minute that it impacts on a persons right to be them self.
 

RC89

Full Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2010
Messages
2,972
Gee Male said:
Absolutely agree.

We should consider banning other stuff that we deem people might not be able to handle too. I hear the ban on showing female ankles in Iran is going well, maybe we should bring that in?

What else can we ban?
Click to expand...
Tell me you're an Islamophobe without telling me you're an Islamophobe.
 

Tarrou

Full Member
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
25,629
Location
Sydney
Sultan said:
They actually can book a hotel room.

"In May 2022 some hotels on FIFA's official list of recommended accommodations for the World Cup event were outright refusing to provide accommodations to same-sex couples, while other hotels on the list indicated they would accept reservations for same-sex couples so long as they hid their relationship in public.[30] FIFA claimed that it would ensure that the hotels mentioned are once again made aware of the strict requirements in relation to welcoming guests in a non-discriminatory manner.[31] During a press conference in Germany on May 20, the Emir of Qatar Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani stated that the LGBT visitors would be welcomed to the 2022 World Cup but they need to respect the nation’s culture.[32]

On 21 September 2022, According to a report by The Guardian, FA (Football Association) has assured LGBT+ couples will not face arrest while holding hands or kissing in public in Qatar. FA has also declared that fans with rainbow flags will not face arrest as long as they do not “disrespect” the local culture and norms by draping flags over mosques in Qatar.[33][3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Qatar"
Click to expand...
the first line of that quote literally says some hotels are still refusing

what Qatar is officially stating is changing on a daily basis too

I wouldn't risk travelling there if I was gay

you'd be trusting their local police to just "play nice" for a few weeks, and most of the persecution against LGBT people over the years is very likely off-book anyway
 

UpWithRivers

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
3,649
Sultan said:
Sorry mate I think you are a stranger to the truth or English is not your first language. I quote just a snippet from a number of your posts.

"How? If they are killing gay people and they need 4 witnesses"
Click to expand...
That was in response to you saying killing. You brought it up. You said Google killing and I said ok so if they are killing people then How are they doing it. The sentence literally says If they are killing gay people. If. Not they are. You said you are from India. Im British. I think it is you who has no idea how to speak. You have refused to answer the same question over and over again and just deflect and throw insults. Answer the question. I dare you. I double dare you. How are they managing to prosecute anyone if they need 4 witnesses? Thats all I want to know.
I don't give a sht about Googling stuff or insults or saying you cant speak English. Answer the question!
 
Last edited:

stevoc

Full Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2011
Messages
20,307
Sultan said:
They actually can book a hotel room.

"In May 2022 some hotels on FIFA's official list of recommended accommodations for the World Cup event were outright refusing to provide accommodations to same-sex couples, while other hotels on the list indicated they would accept reservations for same-sex couples so long as they hid their relationship in public.[30] FIFA claimed that it would ensure that the hotels mentioned are once again made aware of the strict requirements in relation to welcoming guests in a non-discriminatory manner.[31] During a press conference in Germany on May 20, the Emir of Qatar Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani stated that the LGBT visitors would be welcomed to the 2022 World Cup but they need to respect the nation’s culture.[32]

On 21 September 2022, According to a report by The Guardian, FA (Football Association) has assured LGBT+ couples will not face arrest while holding hands or kissing in public in Qatar. FA has also declared that fans with rainbow flags will not face arrest as long as they do not “disrespect” the local culture and norms by draping flags over mosques in Qatar.[33][3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Qatar"
Click to expand...
Yeah you probably won't face arrest but they might confiscate them. Only for safety reasons though.

Major General Abdulaziz Abdullah Al Ansari insisted that LGBTQ couples would be welcomed and accepted in Qatar for the Nov. 21-Dec. 18 FIFA showpiece despite same-sex relations remaining criminalized in the conservative Gulf nation.

But Al Ansari is against the overt promotion of LGBTQ freedoms as symbolized by the rainbow flag that FIFA and World Cup organizers had previously said would be welcome across Qatar’s eight stadiums.

“If he (a fan) raised the rainbow flag and I took it from him, it’s not because I really want to, really, take it, to really insult him, but to protect him,” Al Ansari told the AP. “Because if it’s not me, somebody else around him might attack (him) ... I cannot guarantee the behavior of the whole people. And I will tell him: ‘Please, no need to really raise that flag at this point.’”

Al Ansari is director of the Department of International Cooperation and chairman of the National Counterterrorism Committee at the Ministry of Interior where he discussed World Cup planning for an hour with the AP.
https://apnews.com/article/world-cu...nternational-e6e4861c4b0e8cbb4f1ac41b8e56350a
“You want to demonstrate your view about the (LGBTQ) situation, demonstrate it in a society where it will be accepted,” he said. “We realize that this man got the ticket, comes here to watch the game, not to demonstrate, a political (act) or something which is in his mind.

“Watch the game. That’s good. But don’t really come in and insult the whole society because of this.”
Click to expand...

https://apnews.com/article/business...-middle-east-f03cd08c36dee73b419b2b0e2978fd3f
 

Andersonson

Full Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2013
Messages
3,791
Location
Trondheim
No alcohol in stadiums is fine. Its a family event during day for some. I bet the English cant handle that very well, but thats on the english. I enjoy going to stadiums without drunk people having tantrums
 

Norman Brownbutter

ask him about his bath time mishap
Joined
Nov 4, 2020
Messages
1,668
Andy_Cole said:
Weed? Cocaine? Oh yeh England doesn’t do that. But there’s no outrage.

I was asked in another thread evidence of Islamophobia. Here is one. Why link Iran with Qatar.

Here’s something for you. Brazil also wanted beer banned but FIFA pressured them to reversed the decision. Where was the outrage from Brazil?
Click to expand...
eh, it was ducking everywhere. Even John Oliver did a whole show dedicated to fifa and its bullshit, including but not limited to the beer selling. Brazil told fifa they had issues with people drinking beer in stadiums. fifa said tough shit, bud is one of our sponsors. And of course the predictable happened. FIFA got dragged over the coals about it.
 

Sultan

Gentleness adorns everything
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
48,569
Location
Redcafe
UpWithRivers said:
That was in response to you saying killing. You brought it up. You said Google killing and I said ok so if they are killing people then How are they doing it. The sentence literally says If they are killing gay people. If. Not they are. You said you are from India. Im British. I think it is you who has no idea how to speak. You have refused to answer the same question over and over again and just deflect and throw insults. Answer the question. I dare you. I double dare you. How are they managing to prosecute anyone if they need 4 witnesses? Thats all I want to know.
I don't giver a sht about Googling stuff or insults or saying you cant speak English. Answer the question!
Click to expand...
Show me evidence of anyone arrested or killed for being gay in private. Not from any source connected to the LGBT community, please.

There will be many working in Qatar and also locals who are gay. I don't know if the courts are inundated with sentencing people to death, lashed or sentenced. Simply be like the majority of other human beings. If you love someone of the same gender that's between you and the partner. You can hold hands and spend time together. Just be careful going beyond holding hands to something more intimate in the public is all the host country asks. I think that is quite reasonable. In fact, if I'm out with the kids in the UK I'd expect the same courtesy from people.
 

Norman Brownbutter

ask him about his bath time mishap
Joined
Nov 4, 2020
Messages
1,668
Andersonson said:
No alcohol in stadiums is fine. Its a family event during day for some. I bet the English cant handle that very well, but thats on the english. I enjoy going to stadiums without drunk people having tantrums
Click to expand...
it’s not about that, mate. It’s about the last minute change. If they change this, what else are they going to change?
 

Sultan

Gentleness adorns everything
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
48,569
Location
Redcafe
The laws in Qatar are pretty similar for straight or gay in going over the top (sexually) in public.
 

stw2022

New Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2021
Messages
3,687
This is about a last minute change of policy due to demand of hosts backtracking on a promise they've previously made, one of a series there's always been question marks over their intention of ever keeping. One of these include it being safe for gay football fans to attend.

Painting this as "boohoo westerners can't drink" is dumb and disingenuous.
 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,526
stevoc said:
Yeah you probably won't face arrest but they might confiscate them. Only for safety reasons though.

“If he (a fan) raised the rainbow flag and I took it from him, it’s not because I really want to, really, take it, to really insult him, but to protect him,” Al Ansari told the AP. “Because if it’s not me, somebody else around him might attack (him) ... I cannot guarantee the behavior of the whole people.
Click to expand...

https://apnews.com/article/business-soccer-sports-lifestyle-middle-east-f03cd08c36dee73b419b2b02978fd3f
Click to expand...
This is a ridiculous statement from someone involved with tournament security. He's admitting that there's a conceivable chance you may get attacked for...bringing a rainbow flag to the stadium.

Now, of course, in reality I'm sure this wouldn't actually happen (they probably do have better control over any possible nutters who might attack people in the stands than they do in most places) - but the statement is just beyond laughable on all sorts of levels.
 

UpWithRivers

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
3,649
Sultan said:
Show me evidence of anyone arrested or killed for being gay in private. Not from any source connected to the LGBT community, please.

There will be many working in Qatar and also locals who are gay. I don't know if the courts are inundated with sentencing people to death, lashed or sentenced. Simply be like the majority of other human beings. If you love someone of the same gender that's between you and the partner. You can hold hands and spend time together. Just be careful going beyond holding hands to something more intimate in the public is all the host country asks. I think that is quite reasonable. In fact, if I'm out with the kids in the UK I'd expect the same courtesy from people.
Click to expand...
There you go not answering the question again and derailing the conversation. Because you cant answer it. I repeat for the hundredth time - How are they managing to prosecute anyone if they need 4 witnesses? P R O S E C U T E NOT K I L L I N G. P R O S E C U T E
 

Sultan

Gentleness adorns everything
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
48,569
Location
Redcafe
UpWithRivers said:
There you go not answering the question again and derailing the conversation. Because you cant answer it. I repeat for the hundredth time - How are they managing to prosecute anyone if they need 4 witnesses? P R O S E C U T E NOT K I L L I N G. P R O S E C U T E
Click to expand...
I'm telling you for the millionth time there are no instances of killings or prosecutions that you first claimed. Anyway, you win the internet. Sleep happy.
 

UpWithRivers

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
3,649
Sultan said:
I'm telling you for the millionth time there are no instances of killings or prosecutions that you first claimed. Anyway, you win the internet. Sleep happy.
Click to expand...
Yes finally! Took you all day but at least you are finally admitting it. It's a sham law and unenforceable. I think you have finally been able to tell the truth and can grow as a person. Thank you
 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,526
UpWithRivers said:
How are they managing to prosecute anyone if they need 4 witnesses?
Click to expand...
It is my understanding that if you actually end up being prosecuted for a consensual homosexual act, this wouldn't be prosecuted as - well - a homosexual act as such, but rather as an act of "adultery" (or possibly "fornication" or some such concept if you're not married). In other words, the gender of the persons involved would, technically, be irrelevant.

As for the witnesses, I have no idea how this works in practice. I can only imagine a) that "4 witnesses" doesn't necessarily mean four persons who were direct eye witnesses to one and the same act and b) that not many end up being prosecuted for this. The accounts we've seen about mistreatment and abuse of homosexuals and trans people in Qatar haven't mentioned anything about legal proceedings. Which is what you'd expect: the problem isn't that you'll get prosecuted for "adultery" (or whatever) according to the letter of the law (that's more of a theoretical scenario), but rather that you'll be interrogated, threatened, beaten up (and worse) without trial.
 

Sultan

Gentleness adorns everything
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
48,569
Location
Redcafe
Chesterlestreet said:
It is my understanding that if you actually end up being prosecuted for a consensual homosexual act, this wouldn't be prosecuted as - well - a homosexual act as such, but rather as an act of "adultery" (or possibly "fornication" or some such concept if you're not married). In other words, the gender of the persons involved would, technically, be irrelevant.

As for the witnesses, I have no idea how this works in practice. I can only imagine a) that "4 witnesses" doesn't necessarily mean four persons who were direct eye witnesses to one and the same act and b) that not many end up being prosecuted for this. The accounts we've seen about mistreatment and abuse of homosexuals and trans people in Qatar haven't mentioned anything about legal proceedings. Which is what you'd expect: the problem isn't that you'll get prosecuted for "adultery" (or whatever) according to the letter of the law (that's more of a theoretical scenario), but rather that you'll be interrogated, threatened, beaten up (and worse) without trial.
Click to expand...
If you're a migrant worker or on holiday you get simply deported. Without going into specifics it's pretty much the same law for adultery for locals.
 

UpWithRivers

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
3,649
Chesterlestreet said:
It is my understanding that if you actually end up being prosecuted for a consensual homosexual act, this wouldn't be prosecuted as - well - a homosexual act as such, but rather as an act of "adultery" (or possibly "fornication" or some such concept if you're not married). In other words, the gender of the persons involved would, technically, be irrelevant.

As for the witnesses, I have no idea how this works in practice. I can only imagine a) that "4 witnesses" doesn't necessarily mean four persons who were direct eye witnesses to one and the same act and b) that not many end up being prosecuted for this. The accounts we've seen about mistreatment and abuse of homosexuals and trans people in Qatar haven't mentioned anything about legal proceedings. Which is what you'd expect: the problem isn't that you'll get prosecuted for "adultery" (or whatever) according to the letter of the law (that's more of a theoretical scenario), but rather that you'll be interrogated, threatened, beaten up (and worse) without trial.
Click to expand...
Thanks - So its a sham law. Which is what I was saying. Sultan was saying if you do it in private nothing happens and their laws are better because they need 4 witnesses whereas in the UK you only need two for public indecency. But as you pointed out its nonsense because they just make up whatever they want to. 4 witnesses! Ha! how can that ever be enforceable? Its a joke
 

Lee565

Full Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2019
Messages
5,052
stw2022 said:
This is about a last minute change of policy due to demand of hosts backtracking on a promise they've previously made, one of a series there's always been question marks over their intention of ever keeping. One of these include it being safe for gay football fans to attend.

Painting this as "boohoo westerners can't drink" is dumb and disingenuous.
Click to expand...
This, people are seriously missing the point, qatar got the world cup on false promises, they said they could host a summer world cup, they backtracked on that, they said that alcohol will be sold at matches and then lied at the very last minute once fans had already booked everything.
 

Rood

nostradamus like gloater
Scout
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
21,316
Location
@United_Hour
There is a whole 30pages of gay rights discussion - this thread is for beer or lack thereof!
 

UpWithRivers

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
3,649
Rood said:
There is a whole 30pages of gay rights discussion - this thread is for beer or lack thereof!
Click to expand...
It gets derailed because if you point out hypocrisy on one subject they don't have any legal or moral ground to stand on so they move to another and another. You start talking about beer and end up with but with they have rights to live in Quatar. Which is the only leg they have left to stand on
 

Oldyella

Full Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
5,837
Andersonson said:
No alcohol in stadiums is fine. Its a family event during day for some. I bet the English cant handle that very well, but thats on the english. I enjoy going to stadiums without drunk people having tantrums
Click to expand...
Little bit xenophobic.
 

GreenFieldsGoldenBarley

Full Member
Joined
May 4, 2021
Messages
439
Location
Tangier
Chief123 said:
You’ve literally posted the quote yourself and completely misunderstood it while having a cheap swipe at the guy you’re responding to. Amazing. :lol:

Like the guy said, the ban is for outside the stadium. There was only one person talking shite and it wasn’t him.
Click to expand...
So you'd prefer to debate the definition of 'perimeter' than think about why this has happened and why it pissed people off. Cool I guess.
 

GreenFieldsGoldenBarley

Full Member
Joined
May 4, 2021
Messages
439
Location
Tangier
Rood said:
Firstly, I didn't mention Bin Thani at all
Secondly, what you say in a) and b) is entirely possible, you obviously haven't read my posts if you think I'm defending Qatar on this last minute change

The point that alcohol was never planned to be available in the stadiums is important because several posts in this thread haven't understood this (talking about whats the big deal to not have a drink for 90mins/2hrs while the match is on).
TBF it's not surprising since most media stories have been refering only to the stadiums when it's actually worse because originally Qatar said fans could buy beer around the grounds for 3 hours before kickoff and 1 hour after

Now it's available only in fanparks which are not near some stadiums
Click to expand...
Al-Thani was the guy (brother to the emir of Qatar) who apparently pushed for the last minute banning of alcohol from stadium perimeters. He's been in charge of organisation for the world cup bid since 2010.

My original point was just that it's not a good or reasonable excuse for him to just not be aware of the stadium layout until 2 days before the event starts. That would make both him and the Qatar organising committee ridiculously inept.

It seems to me like this massive flex - Qatar is warning the world that it can do what it wants at this world cup. That should make anyone going to the world cup feel nervous, as there is nothing to guarantee that their legal/contractual rights will be observed during the wc.

The beer thing in itself doesn't bother me - if it was agreed in good time, even 6 months in advance, there would have been no issue. So the exact location of the banned beer stands isn't the issue for me. The issue is that Qatar is clearly totally comfortable promising things that it has no intention of doing - what does that mean for the other promises it has made?
 

Chief123

Full Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2013
Messages
12,787
GreenFieldsGoldenBarley said:
So you'd prefer to debate the definition of 'perimeter' than think about why this has happened and why it pissed people off. Cool I guess.
Click to expand...
I’d prefer to discuss the fact you condescendingly told @Rood he was naive and talking shite while the truth is you made a cock-up and were the one talking shite. Debating the definition of “perimeter” would be viable if you actually meant perimeter. But you were stupidly referring to the “inside”.
 

Gee Male

Full Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2009
Messages
4,313
UpWithRivers said:
Thanks - So its a sham law. Which is what I was saying. Sultan was saying if you do it in private nothing happens and their laws are better because they need 4 witnesses whereas in the UK you only need two for public indecency. But as you pointed out its nonsense because they just make up whatever they want to. 4 witnesses! Ha! how can that ever be enforceable? Its a joke
Click to expand...
You're missing the real point re 4 witnesses - it means that women very rarely succeed in prosecuting rape because they need 4 witnesses too. And if they bring a claim without 4 witnesses, then not only does the claim get thrown out bit the claim itself is used as an admission for adultery.

So yeah, sham law, everything is great. Woohoo.
 

Fully Fledged

Full Member
Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
16,180
Location
Midlands UK
Rood said:
There is a whole 30pages of gay rights discussion - this thread is for beer or lack thereof!
Click to expand...
The last minute change of policy puts all other guarantees in question. Therefore all the things that they said they would accept is called into question.
 

stevoc

Full Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2011
Messages
20,307
Chesterlestreet said:
This is a ridiculous statement from someone involved with tournament security. He's admitting that there's a conceivable chance you may get attacked for...bringing a rainbow flag to the stadium.

Now, of course, in reality I'm sure this wouldn't actually happen (they probably do have better control over any possible nutters who might attack people in the stands than they do in most places) - but the statement is just beyond laughable on all sorts of levels.
Click to expand...
It's ridiculous alright, especially since Qatar has told Fifa these sorts of things will be fine. There seems to be a lot of mixed messages coming out of Qatar on many issues at this world cup. Whether that's just down to different officials offering their own opinions or done deliberately to put doubt in people's minds and discourage some things is anyones guess.
 

Crimson King

Full Member
Joined
May 11, 2013
Messages
3,078
Sultan said:
It's not a terrible comparison. It's very apt. Basically, respect other people's cultures and faiths. If you are so against a certain country, its laws and cultures you are not forced to visit.

Gay or straight do it in private. That's what normal people do in the world.
Click to expand...
Are you able to give me an example of what constitutes a 'normal' person?

I really don't think you should be a staff member for this site.
 

stevoc

Full Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2011
Messages
20,307
Sultan said:
It's not a terrible comparison. It's very apt. Basically, respect other people's cultures and faiths. If you are so against a certain country, its laws and cultures you are not forced to visit.

Gay or straight do it in private. That's what normal people do in the world.
Click to expand...
Perhaps but does that work the other way round though? All these people will be in Qatar because of a decision Qatar themselves made. Should Qatar respect the fact that they've decided they wanted to host a global tournament that would involve possibly 1 million + people from more liberal cultures that are used to vastly more freedoms, coming to their country and then being subjected to their draconian laws?

Nobody forced Qatar to bid for hosting of the World Cup either. Yet they did it anyway knowing it would shine a light on the way people are treated in Qatar. And create lots of uncomfortable situations with so many foreigners in their country at the same time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.