"Big Dunc" - R.I.P.

golden_blunder

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after what Harry Gregg did in the immediate aftermath of the crash i'll have nothing but respect for the man, gripe or no gripe.

i saw a post by TomClare a few weeks ago elsewhere. I was saddened to see the lack of respect for an event that changed many peoples lives and indeed shaped the direction and culture of the club. Some 'United' fans would do well to remember that

RIP Duncan, a young man cut down in his prime
 

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golden_blunder said:
after what Harry Gregg did in the immediate aftermath of the crash i'll have nothing but respect for the man, gripe or no gripe.

i saw a post by TomClare a few weeks ago elsewhere. I was saddened to see the lack of respect for an event that changed many peoples lives and indeed shaped the direction and culture of the club. Some 'United' fans would do well to remember that

RIP Duncan, a young man cut down in his prime
It wasn't a lack of respect at all. I have nothing but the deepest admiration for his heroics on that sad day. What Harry did that day was above question and beyond the call of duty, and I have never ever questioned that in any way. Neither could anybody accuse me of having a lack of respect for the event - nothing could ever be further from the truth.

What I do find hard to come to terms with is Harry's comments about other people involved on that sad day. He called into question the integrity of both Bill Foulkes and Bobby Charlton, and later, also Wilf McGuinness, and in my honest opinion, it was the wrong thing to do.

Again, I have nothing but admiration for his heroics that day, and for his ability as a goalkeeper and a servant of United.
 

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sorry Tom, i should point out that the lack of respect was not about your post but by some of the United fans who replied to your post.
 

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golden_blunder said:
sorry Tom, i should point out that the lack of respect was not about your post but by some of the United fans who replied to your post.

Thanks for that - misunderstanding on my part!
 

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Dresilved said:
TomClare said:
gteam. They were on the receiving end of one of the most premeditated, precalculated, acts of violence on a football field that I have ever witnessed

Excuse my ignorance Tom, what exactly happened.
The keeper was shoulder-barged (if thats the right term for it!) by McParland

Did Wood break or dislocate his shoulder in that incident?
 

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Dresilved said:
TomClare said:
gteam. They were on the receiving end of one of the most premeditated, precalculated, acts of violence on a football field that I have ever witnessed

Excuse my ignorance Tom, what exactly happened.
The ball was headed by one of the Villa forwards at goal - I think it was actually by McParland himself, and Ray Wood caught the ball and had it safe and secure in his hands. But McParland continued his run and threw himself head first at Wood, catching him full in the face with his head. It fractured his cheekbone and jaw and effectively put Wood out of the game. There was no need for it - the ball was to all intents and purposes "dead" in Wood's hands. Today, as Julian said, it would have been a definite red card, but back then you were allowed to charge the 'keeper shoulder to shoulder. This though, was never anywhere near to a shoulder charge. The United players were certain that Villa had hatched a plan in the dressing room to take Wood out of the game. It gave them an advantage as there was no substitutes allowed back then, and was the only way they could stand a chance of winning.
 

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Tom, compared to the more talanted players around today, who would you most compare him to? would you say that he was our best player ever, or close? I've only seen a few snips of the guy unfortunately, do you know of any other DVDs with him apart from the FA cup Final
 

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Dresilved said:
Tom, compared to the more talanted players around today, who would you most compare him to? would you say that he was our best player ever, or close? I've only seen a few snips of the guy unfortunately, do you know of any other DVDs with him apart from the FA cup Final
i've never seen duncan ever play live but i feel it is impossible to compare players from vastly different eras. I am not taking anything away from any of the babes, but football in the 60's is much different from the brand played in the 90's which is different from the brand played today.
 

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Dresilved said:
Tom, compared to the more talanted players around today, who would you most compare him to? would you say that he was our best player ever, or close? I've only seen a few snips of the guy unfortunately, do you know of any other DVDs with him apart from the FA cup Final
I have to admit that I am biased where Edwards is concerned. But I can honestly say, putting my bias to one side, that I have never seen a player since him, to come anywhere near to him in terms of ALL ROUND ABILITY. In some ways he was a freak, and I say that in the nicest possible way. If you listen to football people talk about him, then you'll get the gist of what I am saying. Bobby Charlton says Duncan was the only player who ever made him feel inferior. Terry Venables who has coached through this modern era states he was "the greatest ever" as does Sir Bobby Robson. If I had to make a choice of the player who I suspect may have come near to him, then I would have to go with Bryan Robson at the zenith of his game.

I know that it is difficult for younger people to take in what is said by the people who watched Duncan play, and that there could have been a player who was so perfect. But have a look at his track record even from being a young boy, and that will give you some indication of how special he was.

He was in his schools team at 8 years of age playing against kids 3 years older than him; he represented his County at schoolboy level at just 11 years of age; he was in the England Schoolboy team at just 13 years of age, and captained them at fourteen, and fifteen. He made his debut for United at just 16 years and 185 days; made his debut for the England Under 23 side at just 17 years of age; made his full debut for England at aged just 18 years 183 days in April of 1955 at Wembley in a 7-2 demolition of the Jockinese. To earn those kind of honours back in those days was unheard of at his age.

This piece is taken from a piece I wrote three years ago about him - I think the full piece is on this website somewhere; but this bit epitomises Edwards.

"The late Jackie Milburn used to tell the story of the day that he first came up against Duncan. He recalls early on in the game standing besides him and listening as Duncan told him; 'I know that you are a great player Mr. Milburn, and that you have a big reputation, but it means nothing at all to me. Today I am not going to allow you a kick at the ball.' This was from a young 16 years old boy - it wasn-t arrogance, or egoism, it was Duncan's inherent self-belief in his own ability. As Jackie was to say; 'the thing was, Duncan was absolutely true to his word, I hardly did get a kick throughout that game and United won 5-2. I just could not believe how mature this young kid was, and what ability and self-belief he had'. His reputation had already started to grow, but it never went to his head. He had his feet firmly planted on the ground. Duncan knew he was special, I don't think that he ever doubted that. He just loved to play, be it in the first team or even the Youth team, he gave each game the same commitment. His appetite for playing was voracious. Jimmy Murphy recalled another game, this time a Youth team match early in the stages of the competition against a well known London team. From the very start of the game, there was a loud mouth sat behind Jimmy who kept on baiting him by shouting; 'where's your famous Edwards then Murphy, where's this so-called superstar?' Jimmy just gritted his teeth and said nothing until about ten minutes into the game, a tackle was won in the centre circle, and the tackler was away with the ball and moving towards goal. Several of the opposition players tried to get within touching distance of him, but he was just too strong. From full 30 yards he unleashed a tremendous shot that hardly got off the ground. Before the home goalkeeper could move, it was past him and nestling into the back of the net. Jimmy just smiled, turned around, looked the loud mouth straight in the eye, and said; 'that's Edwards!'"

I don't buy into the argument that you can't compare players from different eras, and that's not having a go at modern day players. Great players, are great players, whatever era they play in. The one thing that you can't take away from any player is skill. The game today has better facilities, and medical expertise is much better and that does nothing but good for the game. It is said that the game today is a lot quicker, and I'll accept that - but not by much! but I don't think that it is down to the players or their fitness levels. The pitches they play on today are all in pristine condition and this is one of the biggest factors why the ball moves quicker. The surfaces those old players played on were akin to sunday league park pitches. During the winter months it was a credit to their fitness levels that they got through 90 minutes on a lot of the surfaces they played on. The game was also a lot more physical back then as well - today it seems to get less physical with each passing season, and the art of tackling is now fast becoming defunct! As I said, great players are great players whatever the era, but the one thing they all have is great skill, and adaptability.

Comparisons always are contentious, especially if you haven't seen a player. But I haven't talked to anyone yet, anywhere in Britain, who actually sawEdwards play, who hasn't hesitated to nominate him as the greatest. If you ever go to the Emirates, try and get in conversation with some of the old Arsenal fans who remember that last game at Highbury that finished 5-4 to United. They will tell you just how good the "big fella" was.
 

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TomClare said:
The only medal that he got was a loser's medal in the 1958 FA Cup Final.
Of course. He missed out on a FAC winners medal in 1963 because, although having recovered from injury, Sir Matt decided to leave Gaskell in goal - nearly a disastrous decision I might add. Then injury again in the 1965 Championship winning side when Pat Dunne kept the no 1 spot. In 1966 -67 he was down the pecking order and joined Stoke in December. Bad luck really
 

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TomClare said:
I have to admit that I am biased where Edwards is concerned. But I can honestly say, putting my bias to one side, that I have never seen a player since him, to come anywhere near to him in terms of ALL ROUND ABILITY. .
Fair enough. I'll throw a couple of names into the hat however. John Charles was a tremendous all round player and perhaps is the one you could compare with Duncan from an ability and a physical viewpoint. It has to be remembered however that Duncan was only 21 at Munich and Charles was quite a bit older at that time. So obviously Duncan had the potential to become even better than he already was. The other was Dave Mackay of Spurs. Different to Duncan admittedly but a very great competitor and a huge influence on that great Spurs side that did the double in 60 - 61.
 

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Julian Denny said:
Fair enough. I'll throw a couple of names into the hat however. John Charles was a tremendous all round player and perhaps is the one you could compare with Duncan from an ability and a physical viewpoint. It has to be remembered however that Duncan was only 21 at Munich and Charles was quite a bit older at that time. So obviously Duncan had the potential to become even better than he already was. The other was Dave Mackay of Spurs. Different to Duncan admittedly but a very great competitor and a huge influence on that great Spurs side that did the double in 60 - 61.
Both great players Julian - I loved to watch Mackay - tremendous ability and scrupulously fair. Hard as nails as well. The thing for me with John Charles - and again he was a great, great, player - was that most of the years that he played in English football, were spent in Division Two and as you stated, he was older than Edwards by quite a bit. He did well at Juve and is revered in Turin, but was just a shadow of himself when he returned to Britain.
 

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Julian Denny said:
Fair enough. I'll throw a couple of names into the hat however. John Charles was a tremendous all round player and perhaps is the one you could compare with Duncan from an ability and a physical viewpoint. It has to be remembered however that Duncan was only 21 at Munich and Charles was quite a bit older at that time. So obviously Duncan had the potential to become even better than he already was. The other was Dave Mackay of Spurs. Different to Duncan admittedly but a very great competitor and a huge influence on that great Spurs side that did the double in 60 - 61.

I'm very biased I admit up front but Duncan was still the best - John Charles and Mackay were great players in their positions but Duncan was great in virtually any position
 

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TomClare said:
I have to admit that I am biased where Edwards is concerned. But I can honestly say, putting my bias to one side, that I have never seen a player since him, to come anywhere near to him in terms of ALL ROUND ABILITY. In some ways he was a freak, and I say that in the nicest possible way. If you listen to football people talk about him, then you'll get the gist of what I am saying. Bobby Charlton says Duncan was the only player who ever made him feel inferior. Terry Venables who has coached through this modern era states he was "the greatest ever" as does Sir Bobby Robson. If I had to make a choice of the player who I suspect may have come near to him, then I would have to go with Bryan Robson at the zenith of his game.

I know that it is difficult for younger people to take in what is said by the people who watched Duncan play, and that there could have been a player who was so perfect. But have a look at his track record even from being a young boy, and that will give you some indication of how special he was.

He was in his schools team at 8 years of age playing against kids 3 years older than him; he represented his County at schoolboy level at just 11 years of age; he was in the England Schoolboy team at just 13 years of age, and captained them at fourteen, and fifteen. He made his debut for United at just 16 years and 185 days; made his debut for the England Under 23 side at just 17 years of age; made his full debut for England at aged just 18 years 183 days in April of 1955 at Wembley in a 7-2 demolition of the Jockinese. To earn those kind of honours back in those days was unheard of at his age.

This piece is taken from a piece I wrote three years ago about him - I think the full piece is on this website somewhere; but this bit epitomises Edwards.

"The late Jackie Milburn used to tell the story of the day that he first came up against Duncan. He recalls early on in the game standing besides him and listening as Duncan told him; 'I know that you are a great player Mr. Milburn, and that you have a big reputation, but it means nothing at all to me. Today I am not going to allow you a kick at the ball.' This was from a young 16 years old boy - it wasn-t arrogance, or egoism, it was Duncan's inherent self-belief in his own ability. As Jackie was to say; 'the thing was, Duncan was absolutely true to his word, I hardly did get a kick throughout that game and United won 5-2. I just could not believe how mature this young kid was, and what ability and self-belief he had'. His reputation had already started to grow, but it never went to his head. He had his feet firmly planted on the ground. Duncan knew he was special, I don't think that he ever doubted that. He just loved to play, be it in the first team or even the Youth team, he gave each game the same commitment. His appetite for playing was voracious. Jimmy Murphy recalled another game, this time a Youth team match early in the stages of the competition against a well known London team. From the very start of the game, there was a loud mouth sat behind Jimmy who kept on baiting him by shouting; 'where's your famous Edwards then Murphy, where's this so-called superstar?' Jimmy just gritted his teeth and said nothing until about ten minutes into the game, a tackle was won in the centre circle, and the tackler was away with the ball and moving towards goal. Several of the opposition players tried to get within touching distance of him, but he was just too strong. From full 30 yards he unleashed a tremendous shot that hardly got off the ground. Before the home goalkeeper could move, it was past him and nestling into the back of the net. Jimmy just smiled, turned around, looked the loud mouth straight in the eye, and said; 'that's Edwards!'"

I don't buy into the argument that you can't compare players from different eras, and that's not having a go at modern day players. Great players, are great players, whatever era they play in. The one thing that you can't take away from any player is skill. The game today has better facilities, and medical expertise is much better and that does nothing but good for the game. It is said that the game today is a lot quicker, and I'll accept that - but not by much! but I don't think that it is down to the players or their fitness levels. The pitches they play on today are all in pristine condition and this is one of the biggest factors why the ball moves quicker. The surfaces those old players played on were akin to sunday league park pitches. During the winter months it was a credit to their fitness levels that they got through 90 minutes on a lot of the surfaces they played on. The game was also a lot more physical back then as well - today it seems to get less physical with each passing season, and the art of tackling is now fast becoming defunct! As I said, great players are great players whatever the era, but the one thing they all have is great skill, and adaptability.

Comparisons always are contentious, especially if you haven't seen a player. But I haven't talked to anyone yet, anywhere in Britain, who actually sawEdwards play, who hasn't hesitated to nominate him as the greatest. If you ever go to the Emirates, try and get in conversation with some of the old Arsenal fans who remember that last game at Highbury that finished 5-4 to United. They will tell you just how good the "big fella" was.
Thanks for the great insight Tom, I love those kind of stories, "Jimmy just smiled, turned around, looked the loud mouth straight in the eye, and said; 'that's Edwards!'".

I did hear a comment from a United supporter, around the same age as you who compared him to S Gerrard (dont mean any offence) what are your thoughts on that? Think I've got the "Duncan Bug" now.
 

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Dresilved said:
Thanks for the great insight Tom, I love those kind of stories, "Jimmy just smiled, turned around, looked the loud mouth straight in the eye, and said; 'that's Edwards!'".

I did hear a comment from a United supporter, around the same age as you who compared him to S Gerrard (dont mean any offence) what are your thoughts on that? Think I've got the "Duncan Bug" now.
I don't think that there is any comparison at all. Defensively, Gerrard isn't in Edwards' League and I don't think that he reads the game as well as Duncan did. He's very lightweight compared to Edwards. Duncan was such a powerful player both defensively and going forward, and in the heading league, again, it's no contest. Gerrard is a good player, I have no doubt about that, but a "great"? Not in my eyes.
 

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TomClare said:
I don't think that there is any comparison at all. Defensively, Gerrard isn't in Edwards' League and I don't think that he reads the game as well as Duncan did. He's very lightweight compared to Edwards. Duncan was such a powerful player both defensively and going forward, and in the heading league, again, it's no contest. Gerrard is a good player, I have no doubt about that, but a "great"? Not in my eyes.
to compare Gerrard to Duncan is like comparing Crouch to John Charles or in modern parlance -- I cann't cos there aint anybody in the modern game that I could compare him too - at a pinch a poor pinch Crouch to Ruud or Thierry Henry