"Shut up, pundits!" - things that struck me watching last year's United Barca semi.

Bearded but no genius

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I keep hearing pundits saying things like "United controlled Barca at OT" (last I looked we won 1-0 but they had 57% possession - ie 'The Chelsea Plan') and predicting scores like 3-1 or 3-0 and I want to smash them so hard on the head that they explode like melons.

The reality is that we are insanely evenly balanced. There is very little to chose between us.


I meanwhile stand on a precipice wondering whether to jump off.


I watched last year's second leg again last night and a few things struck me which are bad omens.

  • 1) Frank Rijkaard was still there and everyone hated each other.
  • 2) Deco was still there and hideously diabolically ineffective.
  • 3) They then had totally lost their touch and hadn't scored in three games.
  • 4) We are nowhere near as slick and fluid as we were.
  • 5) They are exponentially more slick and fluid than they were.
  • 6) Scholes was an important part of that game, and this year he's had a hard time quite a lot.
  • 7) Evra owned Messi that night, but Evra loves to bomb forward and has started to look a bit jaded and slow getting back. If Messi or Eto'o along their right get behind him and there isn't adequate CB cover (this is ESPECIALLY the case if Evans plays, sorry but he's just not quite as experienced yet at cleaning up serious messes as Rio) then we could be in huge trouble.
  • 8) Rio's potential injury would be a massive blow. Evans is wonderful and has made a huge contribution this year. He is Rio's natural replacement, and is one of the best young CBs in England if not one of the best of his age in Europe. But a game like this hinges on perfection and tiny margins. Rio has cleaned mistakes out of his game and performed miracles at times. Evans can still be prone to them, and doesn't quite have the sort of experience or expertise to slot in and not cause us to lose something against such a quality opponent. This is especially true if Evra starts to have problems down the flank.
  • 9) Fletcher would have been the ideal candidate to start and put it up them in MF, and he isn't available. Bugger.

Just as many things struck me that are good omens

  • 1) Tevez was invisible much of that game, so those who dislike Berbatov can't complain if he sits in a deck chair all game sipping martinis and eating bruschetta. No, this is not a BerbaBash, BerbaWankers. I BerbaLike BerbaTov. In fact, I would BerbaLove him to BerbaScore a BerbaHattrick to BerbaShut the BerbaMouths of the BerbaDoubters once and for BerbaAll.
  • 2) Their defense consisted of Abidal and Marquez and yet we got enough joy where we should have gotten a second.
  • 3) Evra owned Messi that night, and it was only when Messi cut inside to the centre that he got any joy at all (Messi started on the right, with Eto'o theoretically in the centre - they shifted over when Henry came on) and even then he never got behind the back four.
  • 4) Our back four that night included Brown in lieu of Vidic and Hargreaves slotted in as Brown moved to CB.
  • 5) Xavi struggled to get into the game, and when he did his passes generally went astray when they mattered.
  • 6) Hargreaves handled Iniesta so well he seemed to go so comprehensively missing at times it was like he was teleported off the pitch Star Trek style. Hopefully we can nullify him again by getting up him, depending on how much the ref will let us. He doesn't fancy a battle at all.
  • 7) Nemanja was out for the game against them at OT. Depending on how divey they decide to be and how the ref allows the game to go this could be a huge asset. They simply cannot stand (literally) to be tackled. Cannot take it.
  • 8) Their hotheadedness. No, this is not a stereotype latin-lover thing. But Barca really do sometimes lose the plot quite a bit when things don't go their way with the refs or in the game in general or whatever else. They fanny around on the ground like fumigated cockroaches, they start sliding into two-footed lunges everywhere, and they start screaming at the ref with their hand up for imaginary cards all over the place. They really can lose control quite easily if you get inside their heads, and if you've got the lead and they're so wound up they're doing their own time-wasting then you've got a pretty big extra added advantage.
  • 9) Our experience. We've already won it and if anything the hunger seems to have grown. This experience could level the nerves at a vital moment to get the job done. He hopes.

So, I'm still on that precipice. It is finely balanced.

Do I jump?
 

B Cantona

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I think we have the advantage, for several reasons

1) We're the reigning champions, and the added confidence that comes from that
2) We had by far the more impressive progression through the semi final phase
3) Barca have all kinds of selection problems. Their defence is a disaster zone, while even if they make it back in time, Iniesta and Henry won't have played for a month. Rumours about Messi today as well. We're relatively well off

It's Barcelona, they have some of the best players in the world, it could go either way. But I'd rather be backing United than Barca, that's for sure
 

Boothy

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No, this is not a BerbaBash, BerbaWankers. I BerbaLike BerbaTov. In fact, I would BerbaLove him to BerbaScore a BerbaHattrick to BerbaShut the BerbaMouths of the BerbaDoubters once and for BerbaAll.
Berba:lol:
 

samabachan

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8) Their hotheadedness. No, this is not a stereotype latin-lover thing. But Barca really do sometimes lose the plot quite a bit when things don't go their way with the refs or in the game in general or whatever else. They fanny around on the ground like fumigated cockroaches, they start sliding into two-footed lunges everywhere, and they start screaming at the ref with their hand up for imaginary cards all over the place. They really can lose control quite easily if you get inside their heads, and if you've got the lead and they're so wound up they're doing their own time-wasting then you've got a pretty big extra added advantage.
So many parallels with Arsenal...
 

KGBhoy

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very interesting. I think we have the experience to deal with any type of Barca that turns up that day. I just hope we don't do a Chelsea and sit back like we did at OT last year. I want this to be more entertaining. Although I can't make up my mind - I would take any win!!!

Oh, and

No, this is not a BerbaBash, BerbaWankers. I BerbaLike BerbaTov. In fact, I would BerbaLove him to BerbaScore a BerbaHattrick to BerbaShut the BerbaMouths of the BerbaDoubters once and for BerbaAll.
:lol::lol::lol:
 

thoward

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It'll be tough for us. Lets not forget that last year we had to play the two legs, plus Chelsea away (probably our toughest league game of the season). But we thoroughly deserved to go through. They were out of contention in the league and were resting players before both legs. But of course they have clearly had a very good season this year.

Rio is crucial. Hes the best defender around for dealing with rapier, fast, agile like attacking players (was enormous in both games last season, and Henry was nearly always his bitch). Vidic has had the better season but he and Evans won't be as suited to playing against the sort of attacking players Barcelona have.Rio was in my opinion, our most important player in Europe last season, he was enourmous over the two legs against Roma and Barcelona in particular. I thought he was worthy of finishing in the top 3 in both the European and World Player awards for 2008.

I think Fletcher will be a clear loss as well(especially with no Hargreaves as well). He was superb in both games against Arsenal, playing on the right of the three. Nobody has more stamina than him and that sort of stamina is invaluable against a team like Barcleona. His passing is underrated as well. Giggs or Scholes will come in but seen as Carrick is key in the centre of a three, the balance of the midfield three won't be as good.

If Rio was to miss out (probably won't) it would be huge. I'd be a lot more confident if Rio was playing and if Fletcher had been able to play.
 

soulblight3r

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You could also take solace from the fact that for all of Barca's attacking prowess, we kept clean sheets in both matches. Here's hoping that our defence will be intact again
 

Dresilved

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Does anybody have an educated idea at their formation assuming Iniesta Henry and Messi fit - which I have no doubt they will be.

Does anybody have an idea on decent train of thought on how they will set up MF considering the backline issues? I think this issue might be key to success or failure for them.... surely they need to set up to protect the back line more than they normally would if all were available
 

Bearded but no genius

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I think we have the advantage, for several reasons

1) We're the reigning champions, and the added confidence that comes from that
2) We had by far the more impressive progression through the semi final phase
3) Barca have all kinds of selection problems. Their defence is a disaster zone, while even if they make it back in time, Iniesta and Henry won't have played for a month. Rumours about Messi today as well. We're relatively well off

It's Barcelona, they have some of the best players in the world, it could go either way. But I'd rather be backing United than Barca, that's for sure
Yeah, the selection problems and fitness issues for them weight heavily as well, but I'm trying to totally assume those are Wenger-esque mind games so that inevitably when the likes of Henry and Iniesta play an injury free blinder I don't feel like a prat for making fun of them being crocked. :(

The back four thing is, let us say, interesting to say the least. We've got to get our skates on and score early I feel. Shake them up and get them confused and disorganised early (a la the Arsenal semi 2nd leg), and we could hit them for 3.
 

Red17

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We've got the ideal preparation in the run-up to this game by playing Arsenal thrice. Like Barca, they move the ball around very quickly, their players move & rotate rythmically and keeps possession better than most. Our defensive concentration had to be 100% and they did - conceding to a questionable penalty. Over the 2 CL legs and in parts in the recent PL game, we played very well. The rest and uninterrupted preparation in the run-up to the Final will have done our weary legs a world of good.

The only regret is that Fletcher will be a BIG miss. Especially after watching his starring role over the 3 games against Arsenal. Whereas Carrick excels in intercepting opposition passes and takes up great positions in front of our back 4; Anderson gives us energy, pace and muscle in CM; Fletcher's ability to snuff out danger, early+quick pressing and his much underrated passing + keeping possession will be sorely missed. IMO, a combination of Giggs & Park will compensate for those quality to some extent. So that means, IMO, a line-up of:-

--VDS--
O'Shea-Ferdinand-Vidic-Evra
-Giggs-Carrick-Anderson-
-Park-Ronaldo-Rooney-

This line-up will also give us a lot of pace on counter attacks. But the downside is that only Carrick, Rooney and Park tends to keep the ball better.

However, if Fergie decides to opt for possession instead of pace and energy, then we should see:-

--VDS--
O'Shea-Ferdinand-Vidic-Evra
-Scholes-Carrick-Anderson-
-Ronaldo-Berbatov-Rooney-
 

Red17

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United are borderline first choice whilst Barcelona have their entire first choice defence suspended/injured. I think for this reason a team with Uniteds attacking powers will take advantage and i expect a victory for united.
Ronaldo's pace, athleticism and aerial ability will test them sorely. I think all of their back 4 will struggle against him, especially on pace. If the play a high line, which they usually do in support of their passing possession in opposition half, leaving plenty of green for Ronaldo to run onto - that could play into our hands.

Berbatov's first touch and considerable ability to hold on to the ball + smooth silky skills to evade defensive attentions will do well against Pique IMO. Pique IMO is susceptible to quick and sudden turns/ changes of direction and acceleration.
 

Red Hand Devil

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I quite like this formation that Red17 suggested:

--VDS--
O'Shea-Ferdinand-Vidic-Evra
---------Carrick--------
Scholes--------Anderson
-Ronaldo-Berbatov-Rooney

...but there's no Park & i'm not sure what Fergie meant by saying Park will definitely be included - either in the squad or in the starting team?!
 

Rooney24

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[*]1) Tevez was invisible much of that game, so those who dislike Berbatov can't complain if he sits in a deck chair all game sipping martinis and eating bruschetta. No, this is not a BerbaBash, BerbaWankers. I BerbaLike BerbaTov. In fact, I would BerbaLove him to BerbaScore a BerbaHattrick to BerbaShut the BerbaMouths of the BerbaDoubters once and for BerbaAll.
[/LIST]
I dont where you watched that game, but I was at OT, and Tevez gave one of the most hard working individual performances I have ever seen that night.

He was far from invisible from where I was sitting, and I would say the Barcelona defence would agree.
 

neno

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It'll be tough for us. Lets not forget that last year we had to play the two legs, plus Chelsea away (probably our toughest league game of the season). But we thoroughly deserved to go through. They were out of contention in the league and were resting players before both legs. But of course they have clearly had a very good season this year.

Rio is crucial. Hes the best defender around for dealing with rapier, fast, agile like attacking players (was enormous in both games last season, and Henry was nearly always his bitch). Vidic has had the better season but he and Evans won't be as suited to playing against the sort of attacking players Barcelona have.Rio was in my opinion, our most important player in Europe last season, he was enourmous over the two legs against Roma and Barcelona in particular. I thought he was worthy of finishing in the top 3 in both the European and World Player awards for 2008.

I think Fletcher will be a clear loss as well(especially with no Hargreaves as well). He was superb in both games against Arsenal, playing on the right of the three. Nobody has more stamina than him and that sort of stamina is invaluable against a team like Barcleona. His passing is underrated as well. Giggs or Scholes will come in but seen as Carrick is key in the centre of a three, the balance of the midfield three won't be as good.

If Rio was to miss out (probably won't) it would be huge. I'd be a lot more confident if Rio was playing and if Fletcher had been able to play.
Couldn't agree more. Rio is the perfect defender to deal with barca. Im sure he will play though.
 

032Devil

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I quite like this formation that Red17 suggested:

--VDS--
O'Shea-Ferdinand-Vidic-Evra
---------Carrick--------
Scholes--------Anderson
-Ronaldo-Berbatov-Rooney

...but there's no Park & i'm not sure what Fergie meant by saying Park will definitely be included - either in the squad or in the starting team?!
Park will play. SAF's already said so.

Incidently, good thread.
 

ThatOldRedMagic

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I am in awe of the above poster's analytical ability. I would never dare venture an opinion of the sort that appears above.

Great thread indeed.
 

ALX8725

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I dont where you watched that game, but I was at OT, and Tevez gave one of the most hard working individual performances I have ever seen that night.

He was far from invisible from where I was sitting, and I would say the Barcelona defence would agree.
Hard work, yes.:devil:

End Product? no.:(


Tevez and United had nothing to show for Tevez's hard work that night.
 

Sultan

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Jasons bricking it!

Don't let his analytical jargon hide the fact he's being a defeatisist.
 

beardsleybob

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Barca can't cover both midfield and defence sufficiently in the final so were gona have a link to target regardless. If they play Keita left back and Toure at centre half then they'll have no steel in their midfield. But if they're not in defence then the backline will be open on the whole left side of defence, Ronaldo will have a free run or else Carrick will
 

Bearded but no genius

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I dont where you watched that game, but I was at OT, and Tevez gave one of the most hard working individual performances I have ever seen that night.

He was far from invisible from where I was sitting, and I would say the Barcelona defence would agree.
On telly, naturally.

As for not noticing, ball-watching I reckon.

He should have scored at least once mind you and when he did get the ball he drove them nuts a few times. Maybe I'm being over-critical, but he definitely went out of the play for big chunks even if he might have been disrupting them off the ball or running around a lot.

Berbatov maybe will just take the chances given to him in a more clinical way, and his cultured skill will get into their heads, so actually in some ways that's even with Tevez creating those two excellent ones and not quite putting them away (one of which would have been sensational).

Plus, there isn't a lot we can do about it since Tevez doesn't seem the same as a starter and I can't see Fergie doing that anyway and leaving his (rightfully) beloved 30m pound signing - who frankly was made for a possession game and to turn Pique to bits (remember what Anelka did to him for Bolton last year, it was baaaaad) - out of perhaps the biggest game of his managerial career.
 

Sunny Jim

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I was going to write that we had an advantage cuz we had play Arsenal is semis, a team that reminisces Barcelona is so many ways. but then again they played Chevski.

I still think we have advantage - Our players are stronger and if the ref will allow some tough tackles i see us winng this game.

I ref i hope ;)