‘Elite’ hipster CBs vs Maguire & Lindelöf

sammsky1

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Koulibali was touted around for £80m. Varane would cost similar. Such high cost players have to perform on the big stage, or at least be faultless.

But watching these super elite centre backs in last 24 hours, it’s very clear that Maguire and Lindelöf are far better at actual defending than many of our fans give them credit. The bullcrap agenda against them has to stop.

neither is natural as ball playing defenders, such as Rio, VVD or Kompany, but we have only just started playing that way and i think they will both dramatically improve on this next season.
 
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FortBoyard

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Passing is actually their best quality. Both are 7/10 as CB. As good as peak Evans for us. Neither will be Rio or Vida level.
 

fps

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They’re both fantastic players and the knee jerk reactions on the forum to a player having a bad game, even in these extraordinary circumstances, suggest a lack of understanding of football.
 

E-mal

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Koulibali was routed around for £80m. Varane would cost similar. Such high cost players have to perform on the big stage, or at least be faultless.

But watching these super elite centre back like in last 24 hours, it’s very clear that Maguire and even Lindelöf are far better at actual defending than many of our fans give credit. The bullcrap agenda against them has to stop.

neither is as natural as passing ball from defence into midfield as Rio, VVD or Kompany, but we have only just started playing that way and i think they will both dramatically improve on this next season.
When a player cost £80m he should be also classified as elite, Maguire is genuinely not better than any of those guys and his lack of pace means a limitation in how a team can play.
 

sammsky1

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Passing is actually their best quality. Both are 7/10 as CB. As good as peak Evans for us. Neither will be Rio or Vida level.
I agree. But if you believe some of the narrative on here, you’d think they were Championship level at passing and not much better at defending.
 

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But watching these super elite centre back like in last 24 hours, it’s very clear that Maguire and even Lindelöf are far better at actual defending than many of our fans give credit.
I think judging them based on what happened in last 24hrs might be a bit harsh. Varane won quite a bit of silverware over the last few years.

I also think there is a lot of truth in saying that these guys are not monsters like VVD or Rio in the past.
 

sammsky1

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When a player cost £80m he should be also classified as elite, Maguire is genuinely not better than any of those guys and his lack of pace means a limitation in how a team can play.
An opinion Based on zero evidence, and rather your own subjective opinion. Pretty much like Pogba.
 

E-mal

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They’re both fantastic players and the knee jerk reactions on the forum to a player having a bad game, even in these extraordinary circumstances, suggest a lack of understanding of football.
They are alright, fantastic they are not.

You guys have failed to realise that in all the big games we played this season we defended and played very deep.
If we must transition to playing on the front foot, their lack of pace and one on one defending will be exposed against very good sides.
 

In Rainbows

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Are you basing this entire thing on this match? Really?

You could technically be right, but this is an absurd way to make this call.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Koulibali was routed around for £80m. Varane would cost similar. Such high cost players have to perform on the big stage, or at least be faultless.

But watching these super elite centre back like in last 24 hours, it’s very clear that Maguire and even Lindelöf are far better at actual defending than many of our fans give credit. The bullcrap agenda against them has to stop.

neither is as natural as passing ball from defence into midfield as Rio, VVD or Kompany, but we have only just started playing that way and i think they will both dramatically improve on this next season.
Difference is Koulibaly is struggling against Barcelona. Maguire / Lindelof struggled against Bournemouth.

Not that I'd not take either at Chelsea, mind.
 

Champ

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When a player cost £80m he should be also classified as elite, Maguire is genuinely not better than any of those guys and his lack of pace means a limitation in how a team can play.
Why?
He doesn't choose the price tag, the club's do.
Price isn't a dead cert of a players ability.
But Maguire is elite, and Lindlelof is also very very good.
But our fanbase seems to have an issue with the third best defence in the league.
 

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Its true they have been ridiculously overhyped but its not like Lindelof and Maguire havent had games where they made mistakes too
 

E-mal

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An opinion Based on zero evidence, and rather your own subjective opinion. Pretty much like Pogba.
I was responding to the fact the OP quoted KK's alleged transfer fee evaluation and am sure an 80m KK is better value for money than the same price for Harry when footballing ability is the only thing we judge them with and keeping aside the intangibles like being English.
 

Clermontois

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Koulibali was touted around for £80m. Varane would cost similar. Such high cost players have to perform on the big stage, or at least be faultless.

But watching these super elite centre back in last 24 hours, it’s very clear that Maguire and Lindelöf are far better at actual defending than many of our fans give credit. The bullcrap agenda against them has to stop.

neither is as natural as passing ball from defence into midfield as Rio, VVD or Kompany, but we have only just started playing that way and i think they will both dramatically improve on this next season.
Koulibaly and even Varane are still twice the player of either Maguire or Lindelof mistakes and all.

Koulibaly has not really done much wrong except take a bit long to clear the ball.

An opinion Based on zero evidence, and rather your own subjective opinion. Pretty much like Pogba.
Why bring Paul's name into everything lad? I am starting to suspect that he most likely embarassed you on the playground when you two were little and you never got over it.

By the way we have seen Maguire play and he isn't anything special surely not worth anymore than 40mil.
 

E-mal

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Difference is Koulibaly is struggling against Barcelona. Maguire / Lindelof struggled against Bournemouth.

Not that I'd not take either at Chelsea, mind.
My point exactly.
When we get to play in champions league next season, we will be exposed in defense except if we play very conservatively.
 
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I was responding to the fact the OP quoted KK's alleged transfer fee evaluation and am sure an 80m KK is better value for money than the same price for Harry when footballing ability is the only thing we judge them with and keeping aside the intangibles like being English.
Are you part of the anti English brigade as well?

One player is 29 and never played in the PL, irrespective given of his nationality, that’s a huge risk.
 

sammsky1

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Koulibaly and even Varane are still twice the player of either Maguire or Lindelof mistakes and all.

Koulibaly has not really done much wrong except take a bit long to clear the ball.
Twice as good you say?

You always make these sweeping subjective statements without ever offering a shred of evidence. Very little to value in your opinions.
 

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What is it with these bizarre labels? "Elite, hipster defenders"? Some people are really sensitive when it is suggested that there may be players who are at other clubs that *might* suit our needs better. It's fine to debate, but it seems a strange starting point to suggest that anyone who thinks Varane or Koulibaly are better players or would suit our team better is doing so because it is "hipster" to do so.
 

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Varane had a nightmare but he's proven time and time again that he is a class defender.

Koulibaly is another case, besides his physicality I dont see any other top attributes.
 

Bilbo

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Koulibali was touted around for £80m. Varane would cost similar. Such high cost players have to perform on the big stage, or at least be faultless.

But watching these super elite centre back in last 24 hours, it’s very clear that Maguire and Lindelöf are far better at actual defending than many of our fans give credit. The bullcrap agenda against them has to stop.

neither is as natural as passing ball from defence into midfield as Rio, VVD or Kompany, but we have only just started playing that way and i think they will both dramatically improve on this next season.
Its a normal perception from fans that watch 50 United games a season and catch other teams maybe 5 times at most. I dont mean that as a criticism. Most people dont have the time to watch a ton of football.

What it means though is that we see every mistake our own players make and very few that other players make. Fact is, Maguire has had an excellent season for us. Lindelof has been consistently good too.
 

SinNombre

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Difference is Koulibaly is struggling against Barcelona. Maguire / Lindelof struggled against Bournemouth.

Not that I'd not take either at Chelsea, mind.
Koulibaly's Napoli team finished 7th in Serie A.

Conceded 3 at home against Lecce.

What difference?
 

sammsky1

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Its true they have been ridiculously overhyped but its not like Lindelof and Maguire havent had games where they made mistakes too
again it’s just my opinion: big transfer fee players have to perform in big games, or at least be faultless: that’s why you pay the big fee’s. KK and RV have made some horrendous mistakes.

When we were in squeaky bum time for entire post lockdown period, Maguire and Lindelöf delivered.
 
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E-mal

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Why?
He doesn't choose the price tag, the club's do.
Price isn't a dead cert of a players ability.
But Maguire is elite, and Lindlelof is also very very good.
But our fanbase seems to have an issue with the third best defence in the league.
I am telling you mate, he's not.
The first sort of big game(tottenham) we tried to dominate, his lack of pace was exposed.

You guys are under-estimating the need for pace in a center back. It's a serious limitation in this day and age where big dominating teams play a high line.
 

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I think the difference is also that Maguire actually cost 80m - Koulibaly has only been valued at 80m. Not sold for that amount, hence clubs have scouted him and decided he was not actually worth 80m.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Koulibaly's Napoli team finished 7th in Serie A.

Conceded 3 at home against Lecce.

What difference?
Yes, definitely it makes sense to ignore the past 3 years where Koulibaly has been a top class CB and just look at this season where the club has been in turmoil. Seems I've rustled some jimmies here.

again it’s just my opinion: big transfer fee players have to perform in big games, or at least be faultless: that’s why you pay the big fee’s. KL and RV have made some horrendous mistakes.

When we were in squeaky bum time for entire post lockdown period, Maguire and Lindelöf delivered.
Big transfer fees like say, £80m?
 

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I wouldn’t swap any of VNL or Maguire for Koulibaly, Varane or De Ligt. They look good in their B-leagues. But put them against great teams and they start looking like £20mill defenders.

Varane is arguably a good defender. But De Ligt and Kouli is so so slow. I said yesterday that Bonucci / De Ligt partnership is the slowest in Europe.

But some people on here have an agenda against our CB’s.
 

E-mal

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Are you part of the anti English brigade as well?

One player is 29 and never played in the PL, irrespective given of his nationality, that’s a huge risk.
Honestly I am not, you could be right as age is a factor.

But my point is his lack of pace just leaves very uncomfortable. He would hold us back when we decide to play a high line and I can't see him being left out in such games.

For what it's worth, I really rate his ball playing ability and what he gives us aerially.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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I wouldn’t swap any of VNL or Maguire for Koulibaly, Varane or De Ligt. They look good in their B-leagues. But put them against great teams and they start looking like £20mill defenders.

But some people on here have an agenda against our CB’s.
Pity you aren't in charge of United then!
 

Dan_F

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“defensive errors” are so common. I’m pretty sure for most goals scored you can find a defensive error somewhere. I’m not talking about horrendous errors like DDG recently, but regular goals scored.

It does seem like our fan base in particular need someone to blame for every single goal conceded. The Maguire nutmeg against Bournemouth is the one that springs to mind. He got slaughtered for it. Had Bruno done that it would have been talked about for weeks as fantastic skill, without a second though for the defending.

Anyway, the main difference is a good team will usually dominate the ball and create more “errors” from the other team. Had Maguire played the same for City this year, I’m 99% sure our fan base would be blaming Ed for not signing him.
 

sammsky1

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I wouldn’t swap any of VNL or Maguire for Koulibaly, Varane or De Ligt. They look good in their B-leagues. But put them against great teams and they start looking like £20mill defenders.

But some people on here have an agenda against our CB’s.
So many times I have read how amazing koulibali is passing it out of defence and how terrible Lindelöf is at it.

koulbali is failing to find his teammate at least 50% of passes in this game. Will be interesting to see the actual stats at end of the game.
 

Gio

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Difference is Koulibaly is struggling against Barcelona. Maguire / Lindelof struggled against Bournemouth.

Not that I'd not take either at Chelsea, mind.
Even a declining Koulibaly would transform the ropey left hand side of your defence, never mind the man at the peak of his powers 3-4 years ago.
 

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There's no magic bullet with centre backs. Koulibaly and Varane are not worth their price tags. They're just not. Neither was Maguire of course but that ship has sailed. If there was a magic bullet, Liverpool found the only one going.

If City, United, Chelsea and Arsenal have proven anything over the last 5 years, it's that good centrebacks are just about the hardest position to find at the moment.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Even a declining Koulibaly would transform the ropey left hand side of your defence, never mind the man at the peak of his powers 3-4 years ago.
Oh of course, one million times yes. Still annoyed we didn't go for him after winning the league under Conte; would have been well worth it.