‘Elite’ hipster CBs vs Maguire & Lindelöf

[ti vu]

As I see it it is simple as this - you can have Vidic and pair him with Evans and it can work. But Maguire is nowhere near world class CB, and add Lindelof to that story, you get this. We need at least someone as good Maguire (which is, again a little above average in terms of other world class CBs) and try to make them work.
I know this has been repeated gazillion times but we need a proper CB and another versatile midfielder (I do not even dream of getting another striker) without it, this is our season. And people will still blame Ole

If you need Vidic, Rio level of CB then we may just as well as give up. Even the best CB nowadays doesn't look like they're on same level. Our 2 starter CBs are upgradable even after the humongous fee we paid for them . We see other teams had been able to build good defense without absolute elite CBs, so coaching does play important part.

Having focussed on this aspect closely in our last few games, I am convinced that Maguire is actually better "ball-playing" CB than Lindelof. When we are camped in opposition half, Lindelof usually tends to pass sideways to Maguire or the full backs where Maguire takes the responsibility of a little bit more expansive passing down the middle or switching to the other side. The reputation of Lindelof as a ball playing CB is simply due to him not being good at tackling and heading. Hence people assuming he must be actually good at technical side of things. But he isn't.

Having said that he is better than what he showed against Palace. At his best, he can be a solid 6 and we need him to quickly regain that level as we are not getting a CB this season..

Lindelof had a quite decent 2018/2019 season. Ball playing wise, when Ole took over Lindelof had that honeymoon period where he showed better ball playing ability than Maguire had shown for us. Ball playing is not all about dribbling with the ball, but also the distribution, which Lindelof did very well. Incisive, quick passing, bring the ball out of the defense, ambitious long ball. He had it all in those months.

Don't know what happened but nowadays we as a team, move the ball so slow, and stop trying ambitious pass. Too much sideways pass and too many touch/blind circling dribbling. Player who are less comfortable dribbling simply just pass to the like of Maguire, Pogba, Matic.

 

[Bobcat]

It is really pathetic that Maguire is mentioned in the same context as Lindelof who is a liability in almost every situation. I said it before and I'll say it again with Maguire we at least know what he is good at unlike Lindelof who isn't quick, is average with the ball, has no areal presence and can be bullied in almost every situation. I have no love for Maguire but I refuse to bash him as long as he has such a weak CB as a partner.

This. Maguire was maybe not worth 80 million, but compare their stats from last season.

Maguire beats Lindelof in every single metric that matters for a defender, including winning twice as many aerial battles, which is pretty damn important for a CB. Last season he also got bailed out by AWB constantly, make a change on RB which leaves Lindelof to defend 1v1 and lo an behold he gets torn apart

 

[Freak]

Why is Ole not playing Bailly/Tuanzebe/Smalling ahead of Lindelof? I mean any of those are much better options than fecking Lindelof.

 

[CG1010]

The thing is, no matter Bailly’s fitness, he is still a far better defender than Lindelof. He might as well put me and you at CB We’ll never get near the ball but at least we won’t get injured and there’s stability (wouldn’t do worse than him last night)

The bottom line is, Lindelof has to go, or at least be permanently dropped to the bench.

Speak about yourself. I have reached an age that CAF deems to be too old. I am practically typing this out from my afterlife.

 

[CG1010]

If you need Vidic, Rio level of CB then we just gave up. Even the best CB nowadays doesn't look like they're at same level. Our 2 starter CB is upgradable even after the humongous fee we paid for them . We see other teams had been able to build good defense without absolute elite CB, so coaching does play important part.

Lindelof had a quite decent 2018/2019 season. Ball playing wise, when Ole took over Lindelof had that honeymoon period where he showed better ball playing ability than Maguire had shown for us. Ball playing is not all about dribbling with the ball, but also the distribution, which Lindelof did very well. Incisive, quick passing, bring the ball out of the defense, ambitious long ball. He had it all in those months.

Don't know what happened but nowadays we as a team, move the ball so slow, and stop trying ambitious pass. Too much sideways pass and too many touch/blind circling dribbling. Player who are less comfortable dribbling simply just pass to the like of Maguire, Pogba, Matic.

I don't have a very good memory of the 2018-19 season, I have blocked it out of my system especially the first half. But I remember Lindelof trying lots of long passes but very few actually coming off for him. But ya we both agree that he has become extremely unambitious in his passing for some reason.

 

[RashyForPM]

Speak about yourself. I have reached an age that CAF deems to be too old. I am practically typing this out from my afterlife.

27? People are turning their noses up at Telles after all

 

[devips]

Why don't we try AWB alongside Maguire who cannot be dropped because he happens to be our captain.

As I see it, in a pattern set by Crystal Palace themselves last season, forwards who are pacy and have a physical presence will always be too much for Mag-Lof.

 

[ReallyUSA]

Why don't we try AWB alongside Maguire who cannot be dropped because he happens to be our captain.

As I see it, in a pattern set by Crystal Palace themselves last season, forwards who are pacy and have a physical presence will always be too much for Mag-Lof.

I don't think Ole has the gall.

 

[Suedesi]

People going on at Maguire for today? What black magic has that Swedish coward done to you lot?

The guy has been constantly out bullyed by literally everyone..be it a 16 yr old Southampton player or CP players today. Literally good at NOTHING.

I hope Lindelof never starts for us again. Smalling in.

Stop moaning!

 

[CG1010]

27? People are turning their noses up at Telles after all

31

 

[ayushreddevil9]

Stop moaning!

People change.

 

[2mufc0]

Another classic.

 

[Sky1981]

Maguire is overrated.

 

[Sky1981]

If you need Vidic, Rio level of CB then we may just as well as give up. Even the best CB nowadays doesn't look like they're on same level. Our 2 starter CBs are upgradable even after the humongous fee we paid for them . We see other teams had been able to build good defense without absolute elite CBs, so coaching does play important part.

Lindelof had a quite decent 2018/2019 season. Ball playing wise, when Ole took over Lindelof had that honeymoon period where he showed better ball playing ability than Maguire had shown for us. Ball playing is not all about dribbling with the ball, but also the distribution, which Lindelof did very well. Incisive, quick passing, bring the ball out of the defense, ambitious long ball. He had it all in those months.

Don't know what happened but nowadays we as a team, move the ball so slow, and stop trying ambitious pass. Too much sideways pass and too many touch/blind circling dribbling. Player who are less comfortable dribbling simply just pass to the like of Maguire, Pogba, Matic.

I think this has things to do with the opposition learning our system and block our game plan, subtly at times by closing down our channels.

Which in turn made us feels as if we're clueless with the balls.

 

[Rozay]

This thread should be titled ‘hipster defenders vs Chris Smalling’. Smalling is a better defender than both of our starting centre halves. He’s just a worse #10 than both of them, ao he’s not allowed to play in defence as a result.

 

[Adnan]

This thread should be titled ‘hipster defenders vs Chris Smalling’. Smalling is a better defender than both of our starting centre halves. He’s just a worse #10 than both of them, ao he’s not allowed to play in defence as a result.

You should create a thread brother..

 

[Rozay]

You should create a thread brother..

I’ve done Chris Smalling promotional campaigns for long enough, I doubt the streets want another one of those from me!

 

[Adnan]

I’ve done Chris Smalling promotional campaigns for long enough, I doubt the streets want another one of those from me!

The streets aren't ready but I've just noticed there's a Smalling v Lindelof thread active.

 

[Cloud7]

Maguire has a place in the team, certainly. I wouldn't put him as one of the absolute best in the world, and he's certainly no Rio or Vidic, but I think he can be part of a title winning team. Lindelof however has no place at this level. He is a complete liability.

 

[Ace]

These guys will be absolutely roasted this season.

 

[Bristol_Red_87]

I'd rather have Phil Jones than Lindelof.

There, I said it.

 

[B. Munich]

If you need Vidic, Rio level of CB then we may just as well as give up. Even the best CB nowadays doesn't look like they're on same level. Our 2 starter CBs are upgradable even after the humongous fee we paid for them . We see other teams had been able to build good defense without absolute elite CBs, so coaching does play important part.

Lindelof had a quite decent 2018/2019 season. Ball playing wise, when Ole took over Lindelof had that honeymoon period where he showed better ball playing ability than Maguire had shown for us. Ball playing is not all about dribbling with the ball, but also the distribution, which Lindelof did very well. Incisive, quick passing, bring the ball out of the defense, ambitious long ball. He had it all in those months.

Don't know what happened but nowadays we as a team, move the ball so slow, and stop trying ambitious pass. Too much sideways pass and too many touch/blind circling dribbling. Player who are less comfortable dribbling simply just pass to the like of Maguire, Pogba, Matic.

I think it's unfair to compare today's CB with CB that were great 10 to 15 years ago.
Football evolved a lot. The game became faster and teams playing a much higher line. Intensive pressing and Gegenpress make it even harder for defenders.
Today's CB have also more tasks to fulfill than only defending such as good buildup play, playing out from the back under pressure...

For a fair comparison we would need to see how for example Vidic and Ferdinand would perform today.

 

[Ekeke]

What a thread this was. Did it curse them? The cracks were always there, there were clear weaknesses to the defensive partnership but their league record was fairly good - we were getting by despite Lindelof contributing very little. Then this thread comes, we go out of every competition we were still in and had a chance of winning with our CBs looking the weakest part of the team and now Lindelof has probably the worst individual CB performance I can remember in a United shirt.

Obviously when you're lucky and getting by without your obvious weaknesses there has to be a point where you get exposed. But the timing of this thread and that exposure seems uncanny

 

[Smithy89]

Both Maguire and Lindelof are pretty terrible, absolute flappers the both of them.

 

[Adnan]

I think it's unfair to compare today's CB with CB that were great 10 to 15 years ago.
Football evolved a lot. The game became faster and teams playing a much higher line. Intensive pressing and Gegenpress make it even harder for defenders.
Today's CB have also more tasks to fulfill than only defending such as good buildup play, playing out from the back under pressure...

For a fair comparison we would need to see how for example Vidic and Ferdinand would perform today.

This..

I've been banging this drum for a while..

 

[tenpoless]

I think it's unfair to compare today's CB with CB that were great 10 to 15 years ago.
Football evolved a lot. The game became faster and teams playing a much higher line. Intensive pressing and Gegenpress make it even harder for defenders.
Today's CB have also more tasks to fulfill than only defending such as good buildup play, playing out from the back under pressure...

For a fair comparison we would need to see how for example Vidic and Ferdinand would perform today.

If they couldn't even do the first part on a consistent basis then I'd say the 'additional' tasks aren't very helpful. Unless if we're like Barca of old, dominating 60%+ ball possession in every game. Van Gaal tried it and failed miserably here. Imho it's depends on the team and tactics, as it's always been rather than football evolving and making things obsolete. I still have a lot of hope for Maguire though.

 

[PoTMS]

I wouldn't even pay £30m for Maguire. How on earth did we pay £80m? Chillwell is a example of what a big club should do when confronted with Leicester City's outrageous demands... and even then Chelsea still overpaid.

 

[Ekeke]

I think it's unfair to compare today's CB with CB that were great 10 to 15 years ago.
Football evolved a lot. The game became faster and teams playing a much higher line. Intensive pressing and Gegenpress make it even harder for defenders.
Today's CB have also more tasks to fulfill than only defending such as good buildup play, playing out from the back under pressure...

For a fair comparison we would need to see how for example Vidic and Ferdinand would perform today.

Rio would have been absolutely fine, it was one of the earmarks about him when we signed him that he's a defender who can play like midfielder with the ball. He did tone it down after the first season and he got caught with the ball a few times on the halfway line but he'd obviously still be absolutely fine dealing with players pressing him. Vidic I'm not as sure. He was a slightly better passer than Smalling, but Smalling doesnt have problems and is just sensible with the ball and doesnt give it away so if Vidic did the same thing he'd be fine too.

 

[Cassidy]

Rio would have been absolutely fine, it was one of the earmarks about him when we signed him that he's a defender who can play like midfielder with the ball. He did tone it down after the first season and he got caught with the ball a few times on the halfway line but he'd obviously still be absolutely fine dealing with players pressing him. Vidic I'm not as sure. He was a slightly better passer than Smalling, but Smalling doesnt have problems and is just sensible with the ball and doesnt give it away so if Vidic did the same thing he'd be fine too.

Rio Vidic Stam plus many other of our CBs would have been fine. You don't actually need to be that special on the ball just comfortable.
Infact Rio would have excelled given the wank fest over VVD

 

[3KDré]

I wouldn't even pay £30m for Maguire. How on earth did we pay £80m? Chillwell is a example of what a big club should do when confronted with Leicester City's outrageous demands... and even then Chelsea still overpaid.

The best thing to do would have been to walk away. Absolute joke of a deal. We bought him because he is good in the air, good on the ball and supposedly a good leader. Out of those I only really see him doing one consistently well. I don't understand why we would pay so much for a player who is not particularly great at anything.

 

[diarm]

Neither Maguire nor Lindelof are terrible on their own, and as part of a balanced partnership - both have something to offer our squad when used properly.

But at this level, you cannot field a centre back pairing devoid of any pace. Vidic is one of our greatest ever defenders, but if we'd played two of him in the same team he'd have got the same abuse we give to our current two. Vidic worked because he had Rio beside him and it's unfair to hold Maguire or Lindelof to the same standards when they don't have the right partner to play with.

Defending looked easy with Rio and Vidic because they could each focus on what they were good at. Vidic in the air and imposing himself physically on the opposition, and Rio mopping up anything that got in behind and outpacing almost everyone he came up against. Our current two lads are so out of their depth worrying about being done for pace, that they're not focusing on doing the job they do well and end up looking a mess all over the place. Give either one of them a Rio and I'm convinced we'll see a far more confident and more able defender.

 

[gorky_utd]

People seriously think Rio and Vidic would struggle in 'modern' football?

 

[bond19821982]

Neville is spot on.


'We can talk about Sancho all we like but until United get a centre back who can run and defend one-on-ones they are never going to win the league,' Neville, who won eight league titles at Old Trafford, told Sky Sports.

'They are never going to win the Premier League with that centre back pairing.

'They have to get a mobile, dominant centre half in alongside either Lindelof or Maguire

 

[buckooo1978]

imagine how much heartache we would have saved ourselves by not flogging Evans who effectively had a bad season at worst. He would have offered us a steady reliable CB rather than punting like we did under LVG and Jose

Our CB collection is an absolute shitshow really. It would be great to shift almost all bar Maguire, Bailly and Mengi and start from scratch

Maguire is decent but not an elite CB on his best day

Lindelof weak, slowish and consistently just ok

Bailly physically the best defender we have i think but fully expect him to get injured at Luton. Should start when fit.

Jones a disaster - physically and in terms of brainfarts

Smalling not too far from Lindelof in terms of performance level. His best football has been away from United it seems.

Rojo - a liability. His aggression is a good quality and whilst he's been lucky to escape with such few red cards he's not a good natural CB capable of playing well consistently

Tuanzebe- can't rely on him to be fit it would seem. Hasnt been able to develop for 2 years so goodness knows how good he is

Mengi - could find himself 4th choice CB if he stays fit and impresses when given an opportunity

all in all another mess Ole has inherited

 

[ti vu]

I think it's unfair to compare today's CB with CB that were great 10 to 15 years ago.
Football evolved a lot. The game became faster and teams playing a much higher line. Intensive pressing and Gegenpress make it even harder for defenders.
Today's CB have also more tasks to fulfill than only defending such as good buildup play, playing out from the back under pressure...

For a fair comparison we would need to see how for example Vidic and Ferdinand would perform today.

I don't agree that the game had evolved that much. I don't see how it is faster. High press, gengenpressing was here at the time when some of Rio, Vidic, Terry generation were still active. Chiellini, Matt Hummels, Pique from a generation or 2 from the previous gen, still active, and it's not like they are quick or invent ball playing when comparing to the previous group. Then remember football is a team game. Defense also links to midfield. Are you saying the best midfielder of 2010 and prior wouldn't perform in today game?

More to do with tactic and coaching. Maguire and even Johnny Evans, look good ball playing CBs under Brendan Rodger. It's not saying Brendan Rodger is great manager, but he can coach a team to pass cohesively, and press as a team. Using this systematically as defensive mechanism.

When we had a team, and gave it a go, the difference in possession to a Pep Barcelona was 2% in 2019 IIRC. You talk as if Pep, Klopp only started their football the last 5 years.

 

[ti vu]

imagine how much heartache we would have saved ourselves by not flogging Evans who effectively had a bad season at worst. He would have offered us a steady reliable CB rather than punting like we did under LVG and Jose

Our CB collection is an absolute shitshow really. It would be great to shift almost all bar Maguire, Bailly and Mengi and start from scratch

Maguire is decent but not an elite CB on his best day

Lindelof weak, slowish and consistently just ok

Bailly physically the best defender we have i think but fully expect him to get injured at Luton. Should start when fit.

Jones a disaster - physically and in terms of brainfarts

Smalling not too far from Lindelof in terms of performance level. His best football has been away from United it seems.

Rojo - a liability. His aggression is a good quality and whilst he's been lucky to escape with such few red cards he's not a good natural CB capable of playing well consistently

Tuanzebe- can't rely on him to be fit it would seem. Hasnt been able to develop for 2 years so goodness knows how good he is

Mengi - could find himself 4th choice CB if he stays fit and impresses when given an opportunity

all in all another mess Ole has inherited

It's about coaching. Brendan Rodger may bottle, but he can coach if given the personnels. Maguire, and Evans look good under him for that reason. It's no more just the issue of individual player anymore.

 

[BlueHaze]

I'd rather have Phil Jones than Lindelof.

There, I said it.

Then drive to whatever rehab center he currently resides in and bring him to OT.

 

[reelworld]

I just realized that for.someone who is criticized as slow and weak in the air, Daley Blind is a much much better player than Lindelof is not even funny. Only cost us 16m? IIRC.
Should've stick with him and save that money

 

[Cassidy]

I think it's unfair to compare today's CB with CB that were great 10 to 15 years ago.
Football evolved a lot. The game became faster and teams playing a much higher line. Intensive pressing and Gegenpress make it even harder for defenders.
Today's CB have also more tasks to fulfill than only defending such as good buildup play, playing out from the back under pressure...

For a fair comparison we would need to see how for example Vidic and Ferdinand would perform today.

Best Cbs in the league by some distance

 

[markhughes]

I don't agree that the game had evolved that much. I don't see how it is faster.

It isn’t any faster than it was back in Rio/Vidic days for sure. People often say that the game has moved on and is so much faster now but that isn’t what I see

Players are better athletes now and are quicker however the game back in the 90s for example seemed so much quicker to me as it was relentless/end to end much of the time and much more direct. Do I have my rose tinted spectacles on?

The game nowadays seems to be filled with a lot more bursts followed to a slower period of that makes sense?