So yes, you'd consider a league match vs. Bournemouth as being on the same level as a CL knockout tie vs. Barcelona? Just checking because that's preposterous.
‘Elite’ hipster CBs vs Maguire & Lindelöf
- Thread starter sammsky1
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Don't bother yourself mate, I am pretty sure when the big games come next season we will be adjusting to cover for the big man's lack of pace.
Varane did make a lot of mistakes last season too. Real Madrid's defense was a comedy of errors
This entire thread is hilarious. Maguire is obviously a good player but to argue he's better than two of the best in Europe is delusional.
That said, I do think he's been unfairly labeled by his transfer fee to some extent - if he were even a £50-60m signing, there'd be far less scrutiny.
Of course you’re making a totally reasonable argument and are correct.
But if we assume that previous world class defenders we had like Stam, Rio or Vidic would be in the £75-£85m ballpark these days, I knew they would never ever make such brainfart defensive errors in a huge game. I can’t think of any circumstance.
koulibali and Varane have this weakness in their locker and though I don’t follow either, I’m sure they have many instances like this on their careers
Grass is always greener, for football fans.
Steady on
Pep wanting Maguire over Koulibaly last season is a point in Koulibaly's favor.
I have seen degrees of idiocy but this is really taking the cake.
Sure, I don't necessarily disagree with you going forward.
My point is that when looking at the past two seasons where Maguire was at Hull and Leicester whilst Koulibaly was without question one of the top CBs on the continent shows there's no comparison at all in terms of their level. If you are asking which of the two is more likely to be better 2-3 years from now, that's probably Maguire.
Vidic - vs Liverpool, 2008/09, allowing the ball to bounce, getting murked by Torres, losing the ball as the last man. Torres goes on to score, we lose a huge match in the title run-in 4-1, at home.
Ferdinand - vs City, 2009/10, tries to scoop the ball over Bellamy's head in the last minute of a Manchester Derby. Bellamy takes the ball, speeds past Rio, and equalizes. Luckily we scored in the 7th minute of injury time.
Stam - vs Arsenal, 1999/2000, robbed by Ljungberg at OT against Arsenal, when he was the last man. Ljungberg went through and scored.
I am not trying to be a wise arse, but these are examples that are literally right off the top of my head!
If buying Rio from a good PL team in 2020 would be at least £100m.
Right, so Pep pulling out of a Maguire deal because they couldn't afford £80m clearly means that he valued him more than Koulibaly who'd have cost £90m? Clearly City were constrained financially given the FFP investigation; they obviously hoped to agree a lower fee for Maguire.
Again, straws, grasping, etc.
You have an amazing memory!Vidic - vs Liverpool, 2008/09, allowing the ball to bounce, getting murked by Torres, losing the ball as the last man. Torres goes on to score, we lose a huge match in the title run-in 4-1, at home.
Ferdinand - vs City, 2009/10, tries to scoop the ball over Bellamy's head in the last minute of a Manchester Derby. Bellamy takes the ball, speeds past Rio, and equalizes. Luckily we scored in the 7th minute of injury time.
Stam - vs Arsenal, 1999/2000, robbed by Ljungberg at OT against Arsenal, when he was the last man. Ljungberg went through and scored.
I am not trying to be a wise arse, but these are examples that are literally right off the top of my head!
These are good examples but I’d rank them as mistakes and not brain fart epics like we saw last 24 hours.
This is silly. So you can look at the past and future but not the present? I don't think many on here have actually watched Napoli this season. Koulibaly has been poor throughout. Maguire is currently better.
Mate, go back and look at the Ferdinand-Bellamy incident, it is the literal definition of brain fart! Same with Vida verus Torres, that was Sunday League decision making on his part. It happens, that's the point.
I can find more examples if you like, but I think I've made my point, and happy to leave it there tbh, not sure we're going to make much progress here
But Maguire had quite a few of his errors and in fact in very low profile games and he's the one who factually went for £80m.
Your argument is just baseless and the temerity to call Varane and KK hipsters just threw your argument out of the window.
Varane a hipster center back.
Yes I think it’s harder to defend in the Premier League
The funny thing is, I have a feeling that, before we signed Lindelof, I'm sure some of the same posters were probably saying "What's wrong with Smalling and Jones? This Swedish fella we're being linked with is just a trendy flavor of the month from a hipster league" 
Fair enough.Mate, go back and look at the Ferdinand-Bellamy incident, it is the literal definition of brain fart! Same with Vida verus Torres, that was Sunday League decision making on his part. It happens, that's the point.
I can find more examples if you like, but I think I've made my point, and happy to leave it there tbh, not sure we're going to make much progress here
My main point and purpose of this thread was to state that some of our fans do not credit our centre backs enough and that they can hold their own at the top level.
And I think both HM and VL will get better individually and as a pair over next 18 months.
Do you think it's also easier to attack?
Some Michael Owen level of punditry
Through my red tinted glasses,, I can understand Varane. Plays for arguably one of the biggest clubs.
But KK is 29 and still at Napoli. Going by the shortage of high quality CB at some of the top teams, why hasn't anyone bought him yet? Is it that Napoli are loaded and won't be bullied into selling? I think maybe top teams don't consider him worth £80 million?
But KK is 29 and still at Napoli. Going by the shortage of high quality CB at some of the top teams, why hasn't anyone bought him yet? Is it that Napoli are loaded and won't be bullied into selling? I think maybe top teams don't consider him worth £80 million?
TBH I think quite a few have reacted (understandably, in my view) to the somewhat lazy depiction of Koulibaly and Varane as "hipster" CBs. The point you've made in bold there is fair enough, I am sure many are guilty of what you say. Plenty of people have very valid and reasonable concerns about our back-line, which I have seen articulated on this forum very well on more than one occasion!
Making mistakes in low key games are fine and don’t often matter because your team mates can often cover for your mistake.
In big games a defenders mistake often decides the match
Is this all over the mistake Varane made yesterday, in a game that was generally shaky and nervy to begin with? We're talking about a 3 time consecutive CL winner here and a World Cup winner.
Maguire and Lindelof aren't even in the same stratosphere.
Guy makes a mistake and suddenly that undoes his entire past history, wtf.
Some forget that Vidic and Rio also made many mistakes in big moments in games. Vidic especially.
Maguire and Lindelof aren't even in the same stratosphere.
Guy makes a mistake and suddenly that undoes his entire past history, wtf.
Some forget that Vidic and Rio also made many mistakes in big moments in games. Vidic especially.
Is that even meant to mean anything?
Errmm... They did have terrible games! What would you say our biggest fixtures were? Vs Liverpool right?
Remember dreading Vida being schooled and made to look like a Championship journeyman by Torres only for it to play out exactly as feared every time?
The only problem we have is that both Maguire and Lindeloff are RCB's but Maguire is forced to play LCB. Kudibaly would be pointless because he's a RCB playing LCB as well. We need a left footed centre back to partner Maguire. Sure, Maguire can play that position and play it well, but he will always be that little bit better from the other side. Bring in a proper LCB and our defense will improve even more. As for the guy behind them? Not so sure about him...
...What? How on earth do you get that from my post?
You mentioned nothing about this season. You talked about Maguire's time at Hull and Leicester, then went onto say we'll see in 2-3 years, completely discounting this current season where Maguire's been better already.
I wondered how far down the page I'd get before someone corrected him on his nonsense.
this has to be a joke right?
Evans being a quality defender is the myth I find the weirdest on the cafe. In front of the one that Fergie ran off as he knew he'd left us with a disastrously poor team that was going to blow immediately.
This is an impressive show of mental gymnastics
Mistakes/Brain farts (a minute ago you said mistakes and brain farts are different things, I guess this time we're treating them the same!) are important if they lead to dropped points, regardless of whether it's a big game or not. Sometimes your teammates might bail you out, sometimes not. The idea that a defender can afford to make mistakes in low key games because his team mates will bail him out is flawed logic, because you are effectively saying his team mates are also fine with making mistakes in those games and will be excused by the same logic. What happens if two players have an off day in a 'low key' game and it results in us dropping silly points?
Everything becomes easier when you’re playing against far inferior opponents, which the very top teams in Europe do more often than not.
Because limiting the comparison to just this season is silly and arbitrary, and doing so whilst ignoring all other factors to make Maguire look better is disingenuous.
Our goals against went from 56 down to 36 (or something like that) despite playing half of last year with a defensive minded coach, and playing with a keeper who can't save a beachball. But because Maguire cost as much as he did, he's under the microscope and any slip up or error is magnified. Same happened when Liverpool signed VVD in January a few seasons ago. Nobody gave him any credit until the following season. Fact of the matter is (and I wouldn't think I'd have to convince United supporters of this) is that Maguire is one of the best central defenders in the world and has been a key figure in helping us secure 3rd place this year...
I took it to mean that your distinction between mistake and brain fart was a facile one, which is a criticism often leveled at Owen's punditry.Is that even meant to mean anything?
I assume that's what E-mal meant, but maybe I shouldn't speak for him!Ahh okay, this is another one of those "Premier League is much harder than La Liga" things? Carry on, I've seen this one before
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No, it isn't. That's why you get awards for such and such is the best player in the world, best player in their position, etc every year, because a year is enough to judge who's better than who at this point in time, and trying to make out that it's arbitrary because you don't agree is disingenuous.
&, going off my posts from last year when he was still at Leicester, I had him better then, too.
I haven't had an opinion either way but the context you have documented certainly leads to a very positive conclusion and future.
I'm not fussed about Europa Cup, and the only reason I want us to win is so Maguire can lift a trophy to cement his role as captain, and so his team knows what it feels like to win a cup.
Now he is used to being captain and proven his amazing fitness and durability, we'll see even bigger improvements next season, when he can focus more on his own capabilities and skills. He has the platform to become a genuine great.
You had Maguire as being better than Koulibaly last year?