Agree. Folks shouldn't let their standards drop to the point where it will suddenly be seen as okay, if we end up with Ederson as our big midfield signing/Casemiro replacement. This won't get us where we need to be for next season among fierce competition and a grueling schedule. We need to at least upgrade two positions in our first eleven this summer and then add depth. Anything less is an underachievement by the club and will see us slide back out of the Champions League places come May next year.
‘No value in the market’ - 2026
- Thread starter Rozay
- Start date
Great post, accountants on this forum should read it.
As i said, we need the right bodies.
We also need a few bodies.
So rather than spunk £85m up the wall on someone who isn't worth that much isn't it better to look for alternatives to allow for the budget to stretch further?
I'd have thought this would have been a simple thing to understand but doesn't seem to be for whatever reason.
Ederson will be a starter without doubt, he's more than good enough. More dynamic than Casemiro, he'll cover a lot more ground and so do work further up the pitch too.
Personally I would have kept Casemiro for one more season, but the wages are obviously an issue which is a shame.
What alternatives allow the budget to stretch further, that are on the same level as MF?
Ask the scouts, that's their job.
But for me, Bergvall would be a good start, would be cheaper, wants out and is a good player. Rovella would be decent and cost a lot less.
There's lots out there, time to put the new stat scouting system to good use.
Imagine buying Rovella to replace Casemiro.
People just don't seem to have get this. We are currently a weaker team and some fans think some squad signings will be fine
Yeah, let's sign much inferior players to our targets
I'm pretty downcast about the situation at the moment but some people have short memories in that everyone was complaining last season how the Casemiro/Mainoo midfield was easily run through and bypassed in multiple games last season. Our attack baled us out numerous times tbf. Ederson is a more mobile player it seems and another player or two with more defensive bite and pitch coverage ability could lead to an improved situation overall even its not our supposed top targets. Time will tell...
And the only way you stop being a feeder club is by growing out of it because of FFP and then SCR. You can't just spend your way there like City and PSG did.
If they pull the trigger on them and it goes as I expect it will then they will be in possession of two world class midfielders and at that point not a feeder club as they should have something to build around. Although the reality is everyone not called Real Madrid, Barcelona or PSG (and arguably Bayern Munich) is a feeder club.
PSG want Diomande anyway.
Also all these oil owners ambitions extend as far as sports washing and once that's not the objective they'll just walk away. They don't actually GAF about these teams.
We kind of do because we have nothing there outside of Bruno Fernandes in the long term and little cover for him in the short term. Besides, Manzambi would be on the wing in all likelihood. Also the club seem to think we do or there wouldn't be so much smoke around Summerville.
Because he didn't want to move last year as he said he wanted to stay at AZ. This summer teams are in for him and Madrid don't need to go in for him as that position is covered by Bellingham and Valverde and Brahim Diaz.
He's not at the level of walking into Madrid's midfield but he's definitely at the level that he can do a job for us and play understudy to Bruno and alongside him.
Por que no los dos?
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I agree with all of this man. I wanted Fernandes as my first choice. I don't think he was worth ripping up the wage structure for though. I do feel shit we aren't going to pay whatever it takes just get another Casemiro. If we got Camavinga or Zaire at PSG that would show the kind of ambition and hype we should have going back into the CL. We are always buying from a scarcity mindset. We need to take risks to get back to the top
There is player scaling because of level and pedigree. Casemiro was bought to be what he was when utilised correctly with his quality being a cornerstone of bailing us out last season and getting us Champions League football. Expecting someone like Ederson to come close to matching that bar is blind faith on the side of supporters, but negligent and irresponsible from the professional outfit running the club, which is why he’s supposed to be the lower rung option - the Ugarte replacement. It’s also unfair on the player to have expectations beyond his station and career to date. He may come here and do well, but the likelihood from his career to date is that he’ll be serviceable, in the way a lower/lowest rung option is supposed to be with anything beyond that being a welcome bonus.
Again, the premise of the thread is are we going to compete at the top end of the market and get ourselves up to par, or are we going to tread water wishing on prayers - keep shopping in the Ederson pool and we’ll be lucky to get European football next season; if we intend to consolidate our CL position, we’ll likely have to match what other English CL-qualifying clubs are doing as well as what they have done (strengthen what they had initially) whilst we’re already way back on what got us to this position via the loss of Casemiro. We haven’t started this window where the last campaign ended so we’re starting behind the line where, as far as I’m aware, none of the other CL qualifiers have that concern. It means we need to do more than anyone else just to consolidate our position.
I haven’t even spoken about kicking on as that’s not something to concern ourselves with until the bare minimum of getting back to par is addressed.
Well put.
The only viable proven option quality wise I can see is Bruno G. I've also always wanted that profile you described, because its so rare. Tchoumeni is a great player, but he's a typical #6.
Pretty annoying, the way things are panning out has got us signing Baleba for £80m toward the end of the window all over it.
Spurs doing what Spurs do, paying big money for good players whom they'll completely waste
Spurs doing what Spurs do, paying big money for good players whom they'll completely waste
I like the look of Quiñones for Mexico, is he on daft money in the middle east? Worth a cheeky bid to bolster the forward options?
United don't do fast wingers, we like mid-speed No.10s who we force out wide for no reason.
City signed Monga from Leicester for 12M
Is Quiñones that fast? He just looks like a good footballer to me, composed on the ball.
Well, it's a damn good job the window has only just opened and there's plenty of time left then!
I don't see the club looking at 'elite' players, we didn't last season, I see us looking at similar ilk of players.
Decent players who fit into the squad, will work hard and raise the level of the squad from the bottom up.
These players tend to be lower cost, they tend to be more successful and won't upset the applecart.
And there's always the possibility that one of them turns out to be a better player than what they have shown at a previous club, I'd put Cunha in this bracket, someone who played well at Wolves but has taken it up another level at United and now at the WC.
Players still vary in level. You could argue that Anderson and Fernandes are not elite either. You could argue that Enzo Fernandes was not an elite player coming from Benfica at the time. We should still be targeting the most promising players. Not in every position, but certainly in midfield, where we have just lost a key starting player and have nothing behind him. Does that sound like the scenario where we should be looking to bring in a ‘good player to raise the level from the bottom up?’ If ever a signing needed to be of the highest possible quality, it is obviously this one.
When Bayern lost Lewandowski, the brief was obvious. They were not looking for a forward player on the basis that ‘every club competing in multiple competitions needs a pool of attacking options’. That is true, but more specifically - they needed a Lewandowski replacement. They knew that, we all knew that. Their pool was small. They went and paid the money for Kane because it was obvious that they needed top quality. Last summer, they tried to sign Woltemade for big money, before going for Jackson. He was younger, and the job spec he was identified for was a different one. They would have never gone for him to replace Lewandowski.
Not every signing needs to be a galactico, but it is clear as day that there is at least one midfield signing that needs to be made this summer for a player of the highest available quality, and that player’s availability should be a far more important consideration than his price. Bayern don’t make a habit of signing players for £100m and giving them £400k pw. He is their most expensive player ever. But at the time they got Kane, they knew that the cost was the secondary consideration there. They were operating in a small market of quality, and the right player was far more important than the right price. We seem to have fallen into a false sense of security where we are treating managing cost as the most important consideration for improving our midfield, when it isn’t. That’s what happened when Bayern got Olise for £57m. He didn’t HAVE to work out. They had Sane, Coman, Gnabry and Musiala. We are not replacing Casemiro from that position. ‘Spend that shit!’
We are targeting the most promising players though?!
We wanted Fernandes, just bit at the price that Spurs offered, and rightly so.
It would have meant a similar situation to what Spurs are in, basically you've signed one player for X amount, any other similar player they want will be similar if not more money (read Tonali). United can't afford that, and need bodies, hence getting the right players in for the right amount of money rather than just spunking cash against the wall yet again.
But we’re not prepared to pay for the most promising players, is more the point.
Tonali didn’t cost what he cost because Spurs signed Fernandes. His price was his price. Spurs simply decided that for once, they wanted to shop at the highest end of the market. From what I see, we have not made the same decision. We have decided that the highest end of the market is too expensive for us, and as such, are seeking alternatives.
Great post. We are out of touch with the market. I honestly think United were hoping to get 3 top CM under 140 mil.
Yeah, signing a 29 year old who plays in Saudi Arabia and has never set foot in Europe during his entire career based on a few decent World Cup performances sounds like a great idea and a sensible use of what seem to be extremely limited funds. He could turn out to be the next El-Hadji Diouf!
The new management set a price based on the data they have and they stick to it. Fans will moan now but long term it will pay off. No more shite like Rashford and Sancho hanging around on massive wages
Of course - we will be buying Everton (no disrespect) quality players and we will by paying Everton fees and Everton wages.
If offered a chance would you pay 200 mil and pay 400k pw for Prime Messi? I guess not.
It's well known that you can't be good at football if you've never played in Europe. Half the Mexico squad are shit because they've never turned out for Fulham or Real Sociedad.
‘Price based on data’. What on earth are you even talking about?
My main point with our general approach to the market is that, had City, Arsenal, Chelsea or Liverpool viewed Fernandes as a priority midfield target in the way that we did - the deal may not have gone through for any number of reasons. But amongst those reasons would very likely not have been the fact that the final deal cost 85m and the wages were up to 200k. They have shown that they will go there and beyond for key targets before.
That doesn’t mean that a deal could not fall through due to numbers. But I don’t think 85m is that number. 85m is not a ‘player is unavailable’ price at the top end of the PL market today. 85m gets a deal done for a key target for our rivals.
Mateus Fernandes has done nothing to warrant a £85m fee and a 180-200k salary. How many times have we done this before with players? It rarely works. And he isn't even a colossal talent, he is just very complete in regards to his age, it doesn't mean he is going to develop all parts of his skill set linearly the way fans think. I can see him stalling this season, actually. We have a far more talented midfielder in our squad. Mateus Fernandes isn't this out-of-world talent that we can't miss out on, next season there will be another 3 midfielders higher rated than him with far more potential, and they'll go for half the price.
Why would they be half the price next season?
No value in the market while Real Madrid has already 4 players in for their new manager.
We are not driven and ambitious enough
We are not driven and ambitious enough
Well he clearly has. And we basically offered about 95% of those figures anyway - so the real question to us was how much do we want the player.
And Mainoo isn’t better than Fernandes, and even if he was, so what? We don’t have to buy him again. If Mainoo then becomes unsettled and wants to leave, he can see if his own figures exceed 85m and more than 200k pw. I don’t think that’s a guarantee by any stretch.
Anyway, numbers are subjective. The question is getting the player or not. I think we should have gotten the player, and I think it’s becoming very clear to all that we should have got the player. When the argument of pivoting to someone else stops being about a hypothetical player and the challenge is to find an equal alternative for less money, it seems to be the point where the arguing stops.
That's pretty much it in a nutshell. And interestingly the most dissapointing summer in the last 15 years have been those where we reach the CL places the year before. Almost like we are content with that.
And hope for a miracle. I wished we would take this opportunity and show proper ambition and to support Carrick. But now, we try to be clever to save a few pounds. The coat of not reaching the CL will be so much higher but this club forgot how to act big when the right opportunity is here
I'm not saying from PL, but from other leagues. How much did Rayan to Bournemouth go for? How much did Kroupi go for? Caicedo to Brighton? Anton Stach to Leeds? There are so many examples. We don't need to wait for players to have one good season in the PL and buy them from 85m. There are players out there waiting to be snapped up for much cheaper than players like Tonali and Mateus Fernandes goes for, and that will be better players.
Care to explain why he clearly has shown that? Because Tottenham paid it? In that case, I guess Antony did show that he was a 90m player...
Mainoo is better than Fernandes, of course. Unless you only value long range passing.
The point for me is that he isn't a player that we can't miss out on, he is a good all-rounder that isn't particularly special in anything. It would be pretty underwhelming to see a genuine top talent midfielder available next season, but because we've spent 85m on Mateus Fernandes, we don't see the midfielder position as necessary to fill, thus, missing out on actual world class talents.
Mainoo isn’t better than Fernandes at all. Unless you only value close dribbling (see how easy that is?). Both have similar quality levels, with Fernandes being a superior long passer (quite a useful tool for a central midfielder) and having far greater intensity and a significantly better engine - which is an incredibly useful tool for a PL midfielder.
And no, not simply because Spurs paid it. But also because we were willing to pay almost identical figures. And for those who assess players based on stats, he was amongst the best in the league last season, and the one player better than him already sold for 31m more and wanted 100k more weekly. So yes, I think Fernandes was worth the money.
Antony’s problem was that he was shit. If he played very well, he would have been worth 90m, or 110m. It wouldn’t matter. As he was shite, he wasn’t worth half that. There are loads of fairly priced players at 30m. Just because they are priced fairly doesn’t mean we should buy them. And if a player is good enough and key to the team, we should buy them, even if they are priced ‘unfairly’, if we find that the team needs them, we can afford the figures, and we cannot find a similar quality of player for less. I think that applies here.
You clearly just don’t think he’s that good. Which is your right. But I can assure you that if we got a lesser player for 70m instead, we would still miss out on this hypothetical top talent that is available next summer. What do you think would happen to Alex Scott next summer if a better player came around?
I think it's widely accepted and acknowledged in the football world that Mainoo is the better midfielder, and the one with the most potential. You disagree, fine, but Fernandes hasn't even played for his country or European tournaments. And I think Mainoo has severely increased his engine and intensity, he's another level here now.
I just don't think we should pay 85m for a midfielder just because we need a midfielder. It's not unlikely that Mateus Fernandes will stall either, given the pressure on his shoulders now and the expectations. Many young players succumb to the added pressure that comes from a fat price tag and expectations. What would you say about Ineos if he fails? Would you say we made the right choice at the time?
That’s what comes with one player playing for United and one playing for West Ham. If we sign Fernandes today, the football world wouldn’t just accept Mainoo was better. Both would be United players, it would simply be assessed based on who plays better. And Mainoo doesn’t play for the national team Vitinha and Neves plays for, nor was he called up for England as a West Ham midfielder, which would have been a different prospect.
If Fernandes is the wrong player, then I don’t care if he cost 85m or a more reasonable 65m. We shouldn’t be trying to sign him at all. We can’t guarantee his success at 50m or 85m - but if he cost 50m and proved to be fair value at 50m - then he isn’t the player we need. The only midfielder we need for 50m this summer is one that is undervalued at 50m, or goes on to be worth 85m (or more). Because we need a top level midfielder, not a decent one.
I just don’t want us buying players because they are cheap. Well, there is scope for that amongst all recruitment, but we definitely need to be bringing in at least one midfielder this summer whose selling point is not that he was attractively priced. I suspect we have signed Ederson because he was cheap. We have briefed that Bruno Guimaraes is too old for our recruitment strategy at 28, yet seem to have briefed that Sander Berge is not at 28, presumably because he costs less. If this ownership just approaches recruitment by shopping in the reduced aisle I fear we will not move forward as a team.
Why do people post such juvenile drivel as if it strengthens their argument, who exactly is making the bolded point? Obviously no one because it's a stupid point.
The data had Anderson and Fernandes as stand outs across the top 5 leagues for the role we were looking to fill. That's why, so no not 'just because'
People are talking up trusting our data teams process whilst at the same time downplaying the key data because it doesn't suit their views.