‘Service’ for strikers

[Rozay]

This is a very subjective area of football. For years I have regularly heard mitigation for strikers, even at some of the very best teams, not delivering enough goals due to a ‘lack of service’. It has been said of our own £75m (or £90m depending on what you believe) striker this season a number of times.

What is ‘service’? - ‘The repeated delivery of the ball, unopposed, in front of the opponents goal?’ I think strikers, especially expensive ones at top teams, need to do better than this.
I remember growing up watching the PL in the 90s and early 00s and regularly hearing ‘experts’ saying ‘strikers will get 5-8 every season in the 6 yard box’. It seems now, to use a name, say Lukaku is expecting to get 30 there. Football doesn’t work like that. I think with ‘service’, I could get 10 PL goals a season myself.

I must say this is largely inspired by watching Lukaku, but is certainly a wider topic. Chicharito was also discussed similarly. But with Lukaku, he is hard to criticise logically, as he has a great attitude, and typically does what he’s ‘supposed’ to do. The areas where he falls short for me is the ability to do anything he perhaps is not expected to do. When Pogba put him through in the second half yesterday and he got a weak shot on target, that probably wouldn’t count as the creation of a ‘chance’. But to me, it should have been for a top striker. I have thought over the course of the whole season that Lukaku doesn’t have enough shots on target. Perhaps he just isn’t good enough to have enough shots, and largely will get the shots on target that are obvious, which generally won’t happen often enough.

Basically, a top striker cannot be using a lack of service as an excuse if they play for a top 6 team.

 

[Pexbo]

I’m not sure what you want us to discuss here.

 

[Rozay]

I’m not sure what you want us to discuss here.

The legitimacy of the ‘lack of service’ excuse for strikers.

 

[Trizy]

What is there to understand about it? Service = chances created. No chances = no goals.

Not many strikers in the world can create their own chances regularly. Probably just Aguero and Suarez could off the top of my head.

 

[drdoityourself]

If Lukaku would see crosses regularly as good as he delivers himself, that would mean better service. The crossing, particularly from the right wing, is just subpar. So I will maintain that there is a lack of service in this team.

 

[Dolf]

There are strikers who completely rely on 'service', like Bas Dost (Sporting) who finished second for the golden shoe behind Messi but would never be able to score the amount of goals anywhere else because he wouldn't get the same service he gets at Sporting.
So I think for some strikers it really is an excuse but it is basically saying you're a very one sided striker. Strikers like Suarez or RvP can score goals from any position in any situation which is was make (or made) them top strikers.

As for Lukaku: we could do with some fullbacks who can actually cross but fortunately Lukaku can score a goal on his own too as we've seen many times before this season.

 

[Trizy]

There are strikers who completely rely on 'service', like Bas Dost (Sporting) who finished second for the golden shoe behind Messi but would never be able to score the amount of goals anywhere else because he wouldn't get the same service he gets at Sporting.
So I think for some strikers it really is an excuse but it is basically saying you're a very one sided striker. Strikers like Suarez or RvP can score goals from any position in any situation which is was make (or made) them top strikers.

As for Lukaku: we could do with some fullbacks who can actually cross but fortunately Lukaku can score a goal on his own too as we've seen many times before this season.

Bas Dost is a great example. I saw a stat the other day saying he's finished 95% of his goals with 1 touch-finish. That's incredible.

Edit: 68 goals scored 64 first-touch finish (including penalties).

 

[Ashley R1+O]

I don't understand mentioning the price. Who cares, the price we paid is irrelevant to his time on the pitch playing football. He's a young and hungry striker who's shown the attitude to want to improve and get to the top of the game. The club have backed the manager with investment into the player who's clearly shown that he wants to get better and grow every game. He's been here one season and he's had a blinder of a season. He's repaid the faith shown by the investment and has credit in the bank now. (And then some)

On the actual "service" argument, I would be shocked if somebody didn't think that this team lacks adequete phase of play, critical delivery and key chance buildup from a static ball retention standpoint. It has shown glimpses of it on the counter (which Red Rom has shown a high level of aptitude in developing) and we're still several players short in critical key area's like fullback and on the right side to aid a striker. We'll balance the team out over the next couple of seasons and this one gone has given him enough credit in the bank to move into next season with those upgrades in key areas and he will continue to grow as a player, he has shown this. People need to relax and be patient. Patient isn't three quarters of a season, patient is three or four years.

This thread will just go down the path that most of these striker arguments go down the "but but he needs to just create world class goals out of completely stone cold nothing, dark matter! THAT is the role of a brilliant striker turning dark matter into unlimited clean energy!!!" route which seems to develop in multiple threads here as if it has any weight in the bearing of an argument on a main striker. Lets get him the service first and then if he's failing after that (can't really see him receding as he's shown an aptitude to grow in the system we have here) then we can address why the service is great but he can't put it in the back of the net.

So far he's ticked the box and had a brilliant season. The bar is set, he needs to grow next season and I think he will.

 

[Steven Seagull]

Aguero didn’t need much service a couple of years ago. If the ball was given to him anywhere in the box he’d create a shooting opportunity by himself. Don’t think Lukaku will ever be capable of that kind of thing but if he can keep improving his hold up play and put wide players in good positions he’ll get more goals. I think he’s quite a smart player

 

[Rozay]

I don't understand mentioning the price. Who cares, the price we paid is irrelevant to his time on the pitch playing football. He's a young and hungry striker who's shown the attitude to want to improve and get to the top of the game. The club have backed the manager with investment into the player who's clearly shown that he wants to get better and grow every game. He's been here one season and he's had a blinder of a season. He's repaid the faith shown by the investment and has credit in the bank now. (And then some)

On the actual "service" argument, I would be shocked if somebody didn't think that this team lacks adequete phase of play, critical delivery and key chance buildup from a static ball retention standpoint. It has shown glimpses of it on the counter (which Red Rom has shown a high level of aptitude in developing) and we're still several players short in critical key area's like fullback and on the right side to aid a striker. We'll balance the team out over the next couple of seasons and this one gone has given him enough credit in the bank to move into next season with those upgrades in key areas and he will continue to grow as a player, he has shown this. People need to relax and be patient. Patient isn't three quarters of a season, patient is three or four years.

This thread will just go down the path that most of these striker arguments go down the "but but he needs to just create world class goals out of completely stone cold nothing, dark matter! THAT is the role of a brilliant striker turning dark matter into unlimited clean energy!!!" route which seems to develop in multiple threads here as if it has any weight in the bearing of an argument on a main striker. Lets get him the service first and then if he's failing after that (can't really see him receding as he's shown an aptitude to grow in the system we have here) then we can address why the service is great but he can't put it in the back of the net.

So far he's ticked the box and had a brilliant season. The bar is set, he needs to grow next season and I think he will.

I don’t think the service this team creates is worse than what Persie used to win us the league. The goals don’t even have to be ‘World Class’. But a top striker should be doing better than a pure reliance on unopposed delivery 8 yards from goal.

 

[Rozay]

Aguero didn’t need much service a couple of years ago. If the ball was given to him anywhere in the box he’d create a shooting opportunity by himself. Don’t think Lukaku will ever be capable of that kind of thing but if he can keep improving his hold up play and put wide players in good positions he’ll get more goals. I think he’s quite a smart player

I think what you said about Aguero should be the standard. Not just for us, but teams of our size and ambition. If anything, the attributes you listed of Lukaku is what I associate with a sub striker at a top club, someone to come on and ‘nick a goal’ of it falls to them. I just think for all his effort, Lukaku isn’t good enough, and will never score 35+ worth of goals he’s simply expected to score.

 

[Ashley R1+O]

I don’t think the service this team creates is worse than what Persie used to win us the league. The goals don’t even have to be ‘World Class’. But a top striker should be doing better than a pure reliance on unopposed delivery 8 yards from goal.

Well close the thread then, you've got your answer. He's scored nearly 30 goals this season and the service in general has ranged from diabolical to alright in patches. If we actually go at fixing the 'service' then the results will only improve the team on the whole as I can't see how fixing the service to a striker (going by your logic) would not improve them by association.

 

[Rozay]

Well close the thread then, you've got your answer. He's scored nearly 30 goals this season and the service in general has ranged from diabolical to alright in patches. If we actually go at fixing the 'service' then the results will only improve the team on the whole as I can't see how fixing the service to a striker (going by your logic) would not improve them by association.

Nobody is saying to not improve the service of the team. We should look to improve all areas we need to. In my opinion, centre forward is amongst those areas.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Service is linked to the teams style of player. I don't think anyone believes salah was secretly one of the world's best players at roma. He is playing in a team that suits his style and gets him lots of chances. If martial played in that team he might take off as well. If salah played at United he would do nothing. I'm convinced of that. Good counter attacking teams get you more chances and better quality chances

 

[Ramshock]

Basically you wanted to have a go at Lukaku who has scored 27 goals this season. Btw whats with the £90M bollocks?

 

[kouroux]

Better service= better chances of scoring= more goals scores. It really is that simple.

 

[yumtum]

Same with goalkeepers who sometimes 'lack protection', they're both legitimate reasons for being made to look subpar.

 

[DWelbz19]

Well close the thread then, you've got your answer. He's scored nearly 30 goals this season and the service in general has ranged from diabolical to alright in patches. If we actually go at fixing the 'service' then the results will only improve the team on the whole as I can't see how fixing the service to a striker (going by your logic) would not improve them by association.

Only 16 of them are in the league though.

I do like Lukaku and I think he has progressed, and I even do subscribe to the view that our disjointed attacking play is detrimental to him at times but he’ll need to push that tally up next season.

 

[Rozay]

Better service= better chances of scoring= more goals scores. It really is that simple.

That is obviously true, but I think it’s a little simplistic. I think a definition of service is required. If that is simply receiving the ball in front of the opponents goal, then the striker also needs to do better in my opinion.

 

[Bestietom]

Yes Lukaku would score more goals if we had good wingers to cross the ball to him. When he gets the ball in the area he can create room to shoot himself, but I do think he is stronger in the air and would benefit from good crossing.

 

[kouroux]

That is obviously true, but I think it’s a little simplistic. I think a definition of service is required. If that is simply receiving the ball in front of the opponents goal, then the striker also needs to do better in my opinion.

Define how you want it but the logic is still the same, whether it's inside the box or outside. Better service will always give strikers better chances of scoring. When that is said, it doesn't the striker cannot improve himself on a few things. The 2 things aren't separated.

 

[Rozay]

Basically you wanted to have a go at Lukaku who has scored 27 goals this season. Btw whats with the £90M bollocks?

His league record isn’t good enough. We would expect him to be up there with the leading scorers in the league, who are closer to 30.

My £90m comment was straightforward too, I said 75, or 90 depending on what reports you believe. Of course, that means both figures have been used, or 75+15. Not that it’s the point anyway, either way it’s enough for us to be thinking we are buying the sort of figures the other top forwards are putting up I think.

 

[VeevaVee]

He was through last week too but toe punted it into the oncoming keeper with his wacky first touch. He's a good player but would be so much better if he was sharper. Maybe it'll come. It's easy to forget his age.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Only 16 of them are in the league though.

I do like Lukaku and I think he has progressed, and I even do subscribe to the view that our disjointed attacking play is detrimental to him at times but he’ll need to push that tally up next season.

The team will need to play better then. Hoof the ball a lot less and try to counter well and put him through on goal. He is adapting okay to playing as a target man but his game is best on the break his whole career. I think back over the season and his 27 goals and can't think of too many games where he blew it. Maybe 3 or 4 in the middle of the season

 

[Akshay]

Only 16 of them are in the league though.

I do like Lukaku and I think he has progressed, and I even do subscribe to the view that our disjointed attacking play is detrimental to him at times but he’ll need to push that tally up next season.

Why do goals in the league count for more?

 

[Ramshock]

His league record isn’t good enough. We would expect him to be up there with the leading scorers in the league, who are closer to 30.

My £90m comment was straightforward too, I said 75, or 90 depending on what reports you believe. Of course, that means both figures have been used, or 75+15. Not that it’s the point anyway, either way it’s enough for us to be thinking we are buying the sort of figures the other top forwards are putting up I think.

How did Kane do yesterday? Did you think Mo Salah would explode this season? Basically its down to the system or style of play as much as it is the striker but its also very much to do with the players around him.

We have three talented players who only want to play left or centre. We dont have a natural right sided attacker and we have 4 limited full backs. All things a top club and manager should have sorted by now granted but all things that hinder our supply or service to Lukaku.

 

[FootballHQ]

It's an interesting point I think.

You do often hear as the OP states "lack of service" when a striker is struggling to score. Torres got it at Chelsea even though it was him largely being s*** and not making any of the runs he did at Liverpool.

It depends on the striker though. Some are incapable of doing stuff like beating a defender and smashing one in from 20 yards so creating a goal for themselves (something likes of Salah, Aguero and Suarez in his liverpool days regularly did).

I watched Darren Bent for years playing for Villa. Brilliant at getting on the end of crosses in the six yard box with his movement but offered nothing outside the box. Many games where he'd have something like 10-15 touches during the whole game.

More strikers need service than others, Hernandez would need more crosses than Alexis would for example.

I do think in the modern game though strikers get a free pass with the they need service to score argument. With one upfront you need a mobile striker who can drop a shoulder, beat a defender and curl one in from 20 yards.

 

[DWelbz19]

Why do goals in the league count for more?

Is this a serious question, or?

 

[Akshay]

I think what you said about Aguero should be the standard. Not just for us, but teams of our size and ambition. If anything, the attributes you listed of Lukaku is what I associate with a sub striker at a top club, someone to come on and ‘nick a goal’ of it falls to them. I just think for all his effort, Lukaku isn’t good enough, and will never score 35+ worth of goals he’s simply expected to score.

Since when is 35+ goals the standard? Rooney never scored that many in a season in all his years here. RVP scored 30 in his first (and best) season for us. Yorkie scored 29 in that fantastic treble season, his personal best too.

I don't consider regularly being able to score out of nowhere an essential attribute for a striker at United. I loved Andy Cole, and he was a quintessential create chances for him and he'll score kind of guy.

Is this a serious question, or?

Yes, it's a serious question? I'm sorry the answer isn't as blindingly obvious to me as it seems to be to you.

 

[crossy1686]

Michael Owen, Hernandez, Gary Lineker, Van Nistelrooy were all strikers that needed the ball put in the box for them to score.

Football has changed in recent years though, all these strikers played in a front 2, now almost every team plays with one up front. I would imagine it's easier to form a partnership with someone when you're both actively trying to help each other score and have very little defensive duties. Not to mention how easier it is to find a target in the box when you've got two strikers going for the ball or one going for the ball and the other taking a CB out of the game. Crossing just isn't effective nowadays when you've got one striker jumping against two CB's, a FB and the GK.

 

[Rozay]

The team will need to play better then. Hoof the ball a lot less and try to counter well and put him through on goal. He is adapting okay to playing as a target man but his game is best on the break his whole career. I think back over the season and his 27 goals and can't think of too many games where he blew it. Maybe 3 or 4 in the middle of the season

I don’t think this is the argument. In fact, it’s closer to the opposite. He scores when he should, more often than not. He’s not rubbish. The ‘missed opportunities’ I see from him regularly are not necessarily categorised as opportunities. They are situations that I think would be an opportunity for a better striker. This is the crux of my point. The definition of service needs to be established before having this convo I think. Playing the ball into feet 20 yards out with only one defender between him and the goal is the sort of service the likes of Suarez and Aguero thrived on for years. I think too teams should have a forward who is more threatening in those situations. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try and put them on a plate too.

As I said with Lukaku, it would be easier to criticise if he were just missing sitters regularly. But he isn’t. He’s scoring them, and working hard for the team, so it’s hard to say he’s doing much ‘wrong’. I personally just see many situations he’s in where I would want more. He wouldn’t be blamed for not manufacturing a chance in those situations, but you would hope that a really top player would.

I saidbin the summer when we signed Lukaku that I would much prefer the striker we hope Rashford will become to the one Lukaku is. Looking at their attributes, you can see Rashford has far more x-factor. We would hope he will also finish easy chances in the box, but we would also be hopeful in situations that are not as straightforward as that too. When you rely upon service in front of goal, you are more likely to go through goal droughts, unless the team is perfect. You can’t expect the perfect chance to be fashioned for you every game.

 

[Rory 7]

To me the service for strikers argument is a bit of a red herring. A top striker can get the ball into feet and turn a defender, creating their own chances. Shearer was a master at that, even if he was a plug. Thats the big disappointment in Lukaku for me, rarely she him turning to create his own chances.

 

[Rozay]

How did Kane do yesterday? Did you think Mo Salah would explode this season? Basically its down to the system or style of play as much as it is the striker but its also very much to do with the players around him.

We have three talented players who only want to play left or centre. We dont have a natural right sided attacker and we have 4 limited full backs. All things a top club and manager should have sorted by now granted but all things that hinder our supply or service to Lukaku.

Tbh, I only recently became fully convinced of Kane as a player at the level he’s spoken of, but think he’s the best 9 around now. Before that, I had similar reservations. I never backed him to really trouble us over the years, and he rarely does tbh, because I don’t see what attributes he would use to best our defenders. He won’t outrun, he won’t trick. If we close the space, we can defend against him. That said, the reason he has more goals than Lukaku is because he often scores out of nothing, or at least out of little. Anywhere within 20 yards, he is a direct threat on goal. He can create a yard for the shot regularly, whereas Lukaku’s attempts always result in the shot being blocked. Again, this won’t get him criticised. He’s not necessarily expected to score from there, but the reality is he isn’t good enough to work space for that shot, which is why the defender manages to block it more often than they manage to block Kane’s.

Of course, the quality of your teammates play a part for a striker, but it works both ways. As I said, I don’t think Persie’s United was better than Lukaku’s. You can look at some of the goals Persie scores for us. They are not what would be categorised as ‘chance created’. That was the difference though. Before he came, we had strikers like Hernandez who would take chances, but it isn’t enough.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I’m not sure what you want us to discuss here.

He wants us to tell him that Lukaku would score more goals with better service, so he can convince us that Lukaku should have scored more goals as it is.

His whole case is undermined by the fact that Lukaku’s conversion rate has been excellent this season and no striker converts every chance they get but I’m willing to bet he sticks to his guns regardless.

 

[Rozay]

He wants us to tell him that Lukaku would score more goals with better service, so he can convince us that Lukaku should have scored more goals as it is.

His whole case is undermined by the fact that Lukaku’s conversion rate has been excellent this season and no striker converts every chance they get but I’m willing to bet he sticks to his guns regardless.

Once again know-it-all Pogue has jumped in and totally missed the point.

Probably better to rely on ‘his’ own answer to @Pexbo post I think, which is simple enough.

 

[Green_Red]

There are different types of forwards.

Some can operate in between the lines of midfield and defenders and are quite comfortable 'turning' a defender and making the goals themselves.

Some strikers operate on the line of defenders and operate best being fed with through balls. You often hear 'likes to operate on the shoulder' with regards to these types of player.

Some strikers are comfortable drifting wide and making play channels for other players by drawing defenders out of position. They're often adept anywhere across the front line and typically also have an eye for goal.

There are of course many other types of player.

I think you could classify service in a number of ways too, depending of course on the type of forward. The results are clear though for all, if the type of service a player requires isn't happening in a game they will often look like they aren't doing much or getting much luck.

That's why styles and personell to match styles are so important.

Also, playing styles are natural so when a player is shoehorned into a style the result is they don't look like they know what they're doing, which probably they don't.

I guess that's why man management is so important, understanding how to get the best from your players by setting your team up to maximise their strengths.

My two cents.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Once again know-it-all Pogue has jumped in and totally missed the point.

Probably better to rely on ‘his’ own answer to @Pexbo post I think, which is simple enough.

Seriously, though, you’re not going to change your mind, are you? This is one of those classic threads set up to criticise a specific player by someone who doesn’t rate said player and will not be convinced otherwise.

You’re also being far too black and white. Even if there is some truth in the idea that Lukaku should score a few more goals out of nothing (be nice for him to get some from outside the box) that doesn’t counter the argument that he would have easily scored 20+ league goals (and 30+ overall) if he was getting service as good as his peers at other big clubs. With oodles of stats to prove he’s been starved of service this season. Then you’ve got the fact that he’s got more assists than many of those strikers so he’s blatantly not just a goal-hanger that needs chances served up on a plate.

So yeah, Lukaku’s been a great signing and is a quality player. You obviously disagree. That’s your perogative

 

[golden_blunder]

My head hurts

 

[harms]

It's a tough one. I know that I don't expect anything from Lukaku when he gets the ball like he did in the second half, with tons of space and very few defenders around... I'd be at the edge of my seat if it was Rashford or Martial. But Lukaku is a better striker than both of them.

More often than not we've had a more all-rounded striker upfront in our best years — Rooney, van Persie, Saha, Ronaldo, Hughes, Cantona... Ruud coincided with our least successful peak Fergie performance, and before that it worked well only in the treble season (but that was a completely different football to today's game).

Hopefully Lukaku will improve in that component — right now he is definitely behind the likes of Aguero, Lewandowski and Suarez, but he's not that old yet.

 

[Rozay]

Seriously, though, you’re not going to change your mind, are you? This is one of those classic threads set up to criticise a specific player by someone who doesn’t rate said player and will not be convinced otherwise.

You’re also being far too black and white. Even if there is some truth in the idea that Lukaku should score a few more goals out of nothing (be nice for him to get some from outside the box) that doesn’t counter the argument that he would have easily scored 20+ league goals (and 30+ overall) if he was getting service as good as his peers at other big clubs. With oodles of stats to prove he’s been starved of service this season. Then you’ve got the fact that he’s got more assists than many of those strikers so he’s blatantly not just a goal-hanger that needs chances served up on a plate.

So yeah, Lukaku’s been a great signing and is a quality player. You obviously disagree. That’s your perogative

Again, you’re such a condescending know-it-all. On what basis should I ‘change my mind’ about anything anyway? Because Pogue has ‘disproved’ me?

You shouldn’t dismiss all validity of my post and then add ‘even if he should get more goals out of nothing’, as if that isn’t the whole point. Lukaku is far from rubbish. The ability to do a bit more is what will elevate him to a truly top striker, in my opinion. So listing all the things that makes him a ‘good’ striker in the first place is not a dismissal of my point. I am discussing what makes strikers great.

You think Lukaku would have gotten 20+ this season with ‘better service’, I think he’s managed to get 16 with he current service, he would have 20 if he could do more for himself and his definition of service wasn’t so absolute. My point is that we have had such strikers before, and our rivals have such now, and this is the level we should ideally have.

I think your point would be more valid if you were saying Lukaku has scored 16 league goals despite his supposed poor service, but that is obviously not your point as we both seem in agreement that he doesn’t score out of nothing. Therefore, how many goals should his teammates put on a plate for him? 25? 30? 16 goals created is a good number, his individual brilliance should have easily taken that above 20, not just ‘we should have created him more’.

Lastly, the bolded sums of your style of discussion. Of course it’s my prerogative to have a certain view. Hence me discussing it. It’s not a case of yours being fact and mine being my own opinion though.