‘You can’t win anything with kids’ circa 2019

Rood

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Here's one I made earlier (slightly out of date but still relevant):
https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/redcastpod/episodes/2019-08-07T02_20_04-07_00

Im happy to see the club give the youth a chance - after failing miserably to buy our way back to the top, it's worth a try and I honestly see a lot of potential in the ones coming through
 

United Hobbit

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I would absolutely love this to be again disproven by us but unfortunately like people say at present the climate is different

I am too young to properly analyse the infamous team who managed to win with kids but obviously know what they went on to achieve

I think half the problem is this time round it's a little bit of a case of "the blind leading the blind." I'm probably being a bit too blunt here but it's a little bit like any work environment you lose experienced staff and new ones come in there are very few people the new starters can ask for help/ learn from and you end up with a bucket load of mistakes

Obviously United is a football team not a work environment so slightly different but which of the current players would you say have the experience and leadership skills to be able to help guide the younger players into the team? I'd possibly say De Gea, Maguire, Pogba, Mata and at a push Martial.
Each of these however have question marks over them- De Gea isn't the best leader and has his own form/confidence/contract situation hanging over him, Maguire is showing potential leadership qualities and perhaps helping the kids will push those on however apart from possibly Tuanzebe and a left back, the positions the kids are having to step up into are not his position, plus he is a brand new signing so still bedding into the team himself. Pogba could again have the potential to do this but is often inconsistent himself plus there are the questions over his future. Mata is the sort of person you'd want around them however is also not currently a nailed on first team starter and a lot of people dont want him to be. Martial again is still pretty young himself and while I've been happy with how he's done so far this season is he ready to help have to potentially support a younger player?

We then have the manager. I like some of what I'm seeing from Ole, however he is inexperienced himself at this level, Sir Alex could almost carry teams through games even though he wasn't on the pitch, does Ole yet have this insight that he had? I think very few current managers would be able to do it, perhaps Pep however unfortunately due to City's massive strength in depth he will never be put in this position, I think even Klopp and Pep would struggle with this many youth needed.

I can sort of see why we have loaned Sanchez if hes a bad apple around the place however I'd rather a sale if we had to do anything, I'm not sure of the legalities but as it's a loan I'd have wanted to insert a clause that if x y and a get injured we can have him back

I'd possibly be open to Zlatan as you could see him leading the younger players and having been so successful himself is someone for them to look up to and learn from however I'd probably only want a 6 month contract and also would steer clear if anyone more permanent was available in January

Also I know you get the "if they're good enough they're old enough" but do people think Rashford's development has perhaps been harmed by being rushed through so soon? I'd like to see the kids getting some appearances but to be relying on a 17 year old should Martial and Rashford get injured? Will we perhaps be stopping his development a little as who will help him if he struggles during a game? Will he be left to figure it out himself as there will be no one around him to help guide him? Also will the kids be more liable to injuries due to the extra physical pressure on them in the league before they are perhaps fully developed?

I hope we treat the Europa seriously as it's our best chance of top 4.
 

Foxbatt

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You can win with kids when you have the best keeper in the World, one of the best CB pairing at that time in the EPL, the best left back, the best midfield player and probably the best forward certainly at that time in the EPL in the same side. Not to forget the best manager too. A manager who has already won two trophies in Europe already beating Real Madrid and Barcelona in the Finals.
 

momo83

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OP is an insult to SAF, and everything behind the class of 92 and their integration into what was already a championship winning team led by who was already one of the best managers in the world .

The planning, the YEARS of planing that it took, the analysis, and finally the balls to trust them. SAF was at United for 5 years, while winning trophies and building a league winning team. He was also looking at the academy and years earlier had identified those players as future first teamers, it’s not as if he sold 3 first team players and then, only after fumbling with transfers he thought “I know I’ll take a look at the youngsters and trust in them”

But this post is also a perfect example of how Ole is fooling naive fans into believing in him by using nostalgia and another man’s past success
 

roonster09

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But this post is also a perfect example of how Ole is fooling naive fans into believing in him by using nostalgia and another man’s past success
Some redcafe poster compared this situation to 95, that means Ole is fooling people using nostalgia? fecking hell that logic :lol:
 

Eric7C

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It's actually not a counter-argument at all. It's a question. Which you failed to answer, along with my second question.

Based on what I've seen on the pitch this season, It's not the winning mentality that is lacking. It's the execution. The players fight for the team and the manager, but they're an inexperienced team with a few new constellations on the pitch. And some players are probably not at the required level.

Also, it's kind of weird using the fact that celebrating goals as a point arguing that the team has no winning mentality. Goals is what wins you games. They SHOULD be delighted to score. It means the game is on. And disregarding that, do you really think it's weird that a 21 year old kid from The Championship celebrates when he scores a blinder on Old Trafford in his third game for the club?
I think you are being a bit disingenuous here; you know what I mean. A 21 year old kid would naturally want to celebrate something like that but wouldn't have in the winning culture that SAF fostered in the club. He would have picked up the ball and ran back. I don't want to demonize him for it but the point is that the culture at the club at the moment is not to win at all costs.

Also asking me whether I know Ole personally is a put-down disguised as a question. Let's be civil here.
 

Eric7C

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Edit: double post
 

Gordon S

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Solksjaer, as much as United fans love him, does not have an obsession with winning as Fergie did and seems unable to instill the required mentality in players.
Ole has been the manager for 8 months, i very much doubt anyone knows just what he is capable of doing with this team. Fans were questioning if Fergie was the right man for the job after 3 years.
 

tenpoless

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It's actually not a counter-argument at all. It's a question. Which you failed to answer, along with my second question.

Based on what I've seen on the pitch this season, It's not the winning mentality that is lacking. It's the execution. The players fight for the team and the manager, but they're an inexperienced team with a few new constellations on the pitch. And some players are probably not at the required level.

Also, it's kind of weird using the fact that celebrating goals as a point arguing that the team has no winning mentality. Goals is what wins you games. They SHOULD be delighted to score. It means the game is on. And disregarding that, do you really think it's weird that a 21 year old kid from The Championship celebrates when he scores a blinder on Old Trafford in his third game for the club?
Was it really a blinder though?
 

MUFC OK

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You don’t win anything with kids when they aren’t supplemented by top class experienced players. We have written off this season in favour of saving cash for the owners (even recouping) and blooding some promising young players who may or may not make it - and many of our fans have bought it. Our squad is wafer thin, I expect our worst season since fergie left - it’s only logical on the face of it.
 
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Marcus

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We shouldn't be caught in 2 minds. If the idea is to blood the kids come hell or high water, then start Greenwood if Martial is injured. Also put Gomes on the bench. If there is a genuine commitment to use the kids, I would be willing to take missing out on top 4 as an investment to do well next year.

If the kids can't make the cut, then we know exactly which positions we have no choice but to strengthen by buying.
 
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momo83

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Some redcafe poster compared this situation to 95, that means Ole is fooling people using nostalgia? fecking hell that logic :lol:
Every defence of Ole is based on something that SAF did and the pipe dream that Ole can repeat it.
 

roonster09

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Every defence of Ole is based on something that SAF did and the pipe dream that Ole can repeat it.
I didn't see anyone doing that, lets assume that's true. How does that mean Ole is fooling people? It's not as if he has created account here or said anything in media. It's just people drawing their own conclusions based on his actions.
 

ReddBalls

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I think you are being a bit disingenuous here; you know what I mean. A 21 year old kid would naturally want to celebrate something like that but wouldn't have in the winning culture that SAF fostered in the club. He would have picked up the ball and ran back. I don't want to demonize him for it but the point is that the culture at the club at the moment is not to win at all costs.

Also asking me whether I know Ole personally is a put-down disguised as a question. Let's be civil here.
I'll repeat what I asked you in my first reply to you:

Do you know him personally? How long do you reckon it takes to instill a winning mentality in the players?
Now, you obviously don't know him, so we'll leave that be. But you still haven't answered my second question. As you're advocating both ingenuity and civil debate, I look forward to your answer.
 

fps

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The strikers we sold are not good enough for us
Sanchez - not fast enough for PL. Did not score or assist much anyhow.
Lukaku - unsuitable for our playing style; never shows against top teams (apart from that match against PSG)

Kids we have are, in some ways, better than them. Chong, Gomes, Greenwood all have better 1st touch than Lukaku. Chong and Greenwood are both faster than Sanchez. Gomes and Greenwood are both good finishers with Ole-style coolness in front of goal. We don't yet know whether they can play in PL but will only find out by playing them. Sanchez was not doing such a great job & Lukaku was out of place after Mourinho left. I think Gomes is more exciting player than any of Mata, Lingard, and Pereira.

If we play these kids we may only get top 8. But at least we'll have some more players for the following season.
To suggest Gomes and Greenwood, with their handful of appearances between them, have "Ole-style coolness in front of goal", is madness! Where is the evidence they can do this in the PL, under proper pressure from serious pros!? I'm unconvinced by Chong so far, he has a very heavy touch carrying the ball in the first team appearances I've seen.

Greenwood is promising, but as a top level pro he has achieved precisely zero at this point. Let's just see how he goes as someone who is FOUR YEARS YOUNGER THAN RASHFORD, HIMSELF STILL A KID. Gomes has so much hype behind him from people on this forum, let's just see if he can play Premier League football at all before building him up as this that and the other. Certainly, the way he wants to play the game looks more exciting than the three mentioned, but he's got a lot of developing to do before he can bring that game to bear in the PL.

Putting them in and having blind faith they'll all develop, at the expense of league position this year, would be insane. Being a great junior proves nothing. This is arguably United's most important season in years, in terms of Ole's vision, and recruitment next summer. If Pogba and DeGea leave and there's no CL football on offer for prospective signings, good luck United getting back in the top 4 for the next decade.
 

johanovic

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Could people be underestimating the youngsters we have at the club? Having seen Gomes,Garner,Greenwood,Chong,Laird play I´m sure we have some serious talent there. I also belive Williams,O´Connor,Galbraith,Levitt,Ramazani are quite promising also. I also think the summer youth signings
Emeran
Hoogewerf
Mejia
Mejbri
Hardley
+Mengi,Shoretire and Elanga show that we have a very promising group of young players below those that are on the cusp of the first team today.

Even if just 2 or 3 of these players here above make it that would be a huge success but I belive we could have more from that group. For me a big part of United is to belive in youth and give them a chance to prove their worth and that has worked well for us in the past. Going over the MEN list of 50 best United players Giggs,Best,Charlton,Scholes,Edwards,Neville,Byrne,Beckham,Foulkes,Viollet,Hughes,Whiteside,Stiles,Mcllroy,Albiston,Kidd,Carey,Pearson were given a chance as youngsters plus that we also signed Ronaldo,Rooney and others as very young players. United has always been about youth and attacking football and I applaud OGS bravery in getting rid of the deadwood and start giving youth a chance. What we then need to do in the next transfer windows is to make fewer but absolute top signings to go lead the youngsters like we did with in the past.
 

MisterLupus

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Winning I doubt - if we get a trophy I'd consider that a bonus. But I believe we can manage to make a productive season out of this and something to build on. If we manage to put a challenge in for top-four with this team - then get some reinforcements in January and next summer - I think we'll become contenders again. Also we didn't really win with kids back then - our "kids" had some seasoned talents of the highest quality playing alongside them. It was a young squad and a daring move but let's not pretend that this was a team consisting of academy players.

To suggest Gomes and Greenwood, with their handful of appearances between them, have "Ole-style coolness in front of goal", is madness!
Yes it is. He was among the best there was in that department - yet for some reason people are constantly selling him short. He was actually world class with his chances / minutes needed per goal stats and people who consider him only a super-sub or someone who achieved his status on the back of "that goal" are grossly underestimating him (much like I believe plenty are underestimating his potential as a manager too).

And I like Greenwood a lot (haven't seen too much of Gomes) but to think either of them are of the same caliber as Solskjær is selling him even shorter. They'd have to work extremely hard to come anywhere near Ole's talent in terms of positional awareness and finishing touch - in fact any player would:


Edit note: And as we see from those clips our teams back then had more than just kids in them. In fact we had such an arsenal of quality that even Solskjær got benched.
 
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Zeno

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I see more comparisons with 1989 rather than 1996.

I don’t see Southampton as ‘make or break’ by any means but it should provide an insight into the character of these lads.
 

momo83

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I didn't see anyone doing that, lets assume that's true. How does that mean Ole is fooling people? It's not as if he has created account here or said anything in media. It's just people drawing their own conclusions based on his actions.
Ok. How many academy players has he given debuts to this season and made first team regulars? It’s just words with Ole. He went from talking about a rebuild with big signings and all outgoings must be replaced to im trusting youth.

SAF didn’t talk. He just did.
 

roonster09

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Ok. How many academy players has he given debuts to this season and made first team regulars? It’s just words with Ole. He went from talking about a rebuild with big signings and all outgoings must be replaced to im trusting youth.

SAF didn’t talk. He just did.
:lol: fecking hell, it's just 3 games. They will get chances once we have 3 games a week, that's when you use your full squad.

They won't be first team regulars straight away unless they have Rashford like impact. They will be squad players.
 

momo83

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:lol: fecking hell, it's just 3 games. They will get chances once we have 3 games a week, that's when you use your full squad.

They won't be first team regulars straight away unless they have Rashford like impact. They will be squad players.
So what actions of Ole are people drawing conclusions and making comparisons to SAF and class of 92 from then?
 

roonster09

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So what actions of Ole are people drawing conclusions and making comparisons to SAF and class of 92 from then?
If people are drawing silly conclusions, then its on them. Not on Ole to explain that. Did he say he is creating new class of 92? Or replicating class of 92?

Few journalists reported (not sure if Ole did too) that focus will be on youth and few young players will be promoted.We have already reduced the overall age of the squad, there are few positions where younger players have replaced older players in first 11. Promoting does't mean playing them in every game. They are squad players for now and once we have 3 games in a week, they will get more chances.

Asking 'How many academy players has he given debuts to this season' is so silly and random.

Anyways copying from other thread.
We have signed AWB who is just 21.
Signed James who is 21
Replaced Matic with McTominay who is 22.
Replaced 26 year old Lukaku who didn't suit the way Ole wanted to play with Martial who is 23.
Made Rashford regular first team player instead of just playing him as a sub and end up playing around 50% of total mins. Again he is just 21

We have reduced the age in so many positions. We have promoted Greenwood to first team squad who is 17. Then Ole said likes of Gomes, Chong will get mins once we have 3 games in a week.

So we made young bench players as first team players. Young reserves into bench players.

How is that not focusing on the youth? We had youngest team in PL this season.
 

momo83

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If people are drawing silly conclusions, then its on them. Not on Ole to explain that. Did he say he is creating new class of 92? Or replicating class of 92?

Few journalists reported (not sure if Ole did too) that focus will be on youth and few young players will be promoted.We have already reduced the overall age of the squad, there are few positions where younger players have replaced older players in first 11. Promoting does't mean playing them in every game. They are squad players for now and once we have 3 games in a week, they will get more chances.

Asking 'How many academy players has he given debuts to this season' is so silly and random.

Anyways copying from other thread.
You said it’s people drawing conclusions based on his actions not what he said. So was just asking what action, perfectly reasonable.

Ok. So if you believe what you believe then you or others who believe Ole actually has a clue can’t blame the state of our squad on the board. It’s down to Ole’s plan and design. Because obviously in May or whenever, having already assessed the young players he would have decided that he didn’t need to replace Herrera, Fellaini, Lukaku, Sanchez with new signings because he already had their replacements in the squad/academy. What to make of all his talk about “you won’t believe some of the players who want to come” or “everyone who leaves must be replaced” i don’t know.
 

roonster09

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You said it’s people drawing conclusions based on his actions not what he said. So was just asking what action, perfectly reasonable.

Ok. So if you believe what you believe then you or others who believe Ole actually has a clue can’t blame the state of our squad on the board. It’s down to Ole’s plan and design. Because obviously in May or whenever, having already assessed the young players he would have decided that he didn’t need to replace Herrera, Fellaini, Lukaku, Sanchez with new signings because he already had their replacements in the squad/academy. What to make of all his talk about “you won’t believe some of the players who want to come” or “everyone who leaves must be replaced” i don’t know.
Not sure when people will start to take everything said in PC with pinch of salt. He was asked about signing players without CL, what do you expect him to say? "That we are shit, players rejected us and didn't want to sign for a team that's not in CL"? There is not a chance Ole will playdown ManUtd in the PC. He even praises players who wants to leave, makes everyone believe that the player is in plans only to be loaned out or sold. He shows respect to the players, same to the club.

Ole said Herrera and Fellaini don't need replacements as we have McTominay and Pereira. He said any outgoings should be replaced but we sold Lukaku so late that we didn't sign anyone, offloaded Sanchez after window was shut.

It's not about blaming manager or board, come out of that Jose's mentality. It's working as a team. We are obviously taking short term hit to build team for the future. No one said our squad is complete, anyone who can think can see we have left many holes in the team. I'm assuming no one thought we will fix everything in 1 window either. We are still offloading the players, we have huge wage bill and bloated squad, many of them don't even deserve to be at Manutd.

Also I have copied post from other thread to highlight his actions. We have reduced the age of the squad, replaced older players with younger ones in the first 11 and offloaded few players who were on high wages but didn't justify those wages. He has also promoted few young players from reserves to first team squad. What more actions is needed?

Then randomly you keep asking which player was promoted this season when we have played just 3 games, and also at the point where we don't even have to use our full squad.
 

Eric7C

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I'll repeat what I asked you in my first reply to you:


Now, you obviously don't know him, so we'll leave that be. But you still haven't answered my second question. As you're advocating both ingenuity and civil debate, I look forward to your answer.
I shouldn't engage with a needlessly sarcastic and hostile response, but here goes:
If you look at the results since Ole has come in, they were fantastic up until the PSG game. The players were responding well to the positivity that he had brought to the club (and a few tactical changes too such as pushing the fullbacks up and trying to pass the ball forward quicker). The results after that read: played 15, won 3; that's relegation form. What that reveals to me is that when the going gets tough, the players of this club seem to stop trying/become confused tactically/stop doing the basics of a style like passing quickly etc. Ole wants them to play a certain way but when it is not going well, he is not able to return the players to those basics. That's an issue of focus and mentality. He has been on the job for 8 months, not 8 weeks, and he has been working with more or less the same group. How long does it take to instill that mentality? I don't think there's a fixed number, but are we seeing progress or are we seeing a leveling off of how the players are responding? In my opinion, it's the latter.

Now I definitely don't want him to be sacked at this point. United are in a rebuild (again). But the question that the OP posed was whether Ole's kids are going to be able to pull off what Fergie's did all those years ago. And apart from the fact that we have two very strong opponents in City and Liverpool in the league, the above issues of mentality and lack of tactical flexibility means that it is highly unlikely that the current generation can match the achievements of the 95 team.
 

ivaldo

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The miserable bastards are out in their droves in this thread it seems. Give it a rest.