I mean, we've spent lots of money too they just spend better. They're also more decisive about replacing the weak links whereas we hold onto them forever.
“ If De Bruyne (£68m) has an off day, City have Mahrez (£61m), Sterling (£57m), Silva (£45m), Foden, Gundogan (£24m), & Ferran (£21m)
- Thread starter Wumminator
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Even if he took over a Championship team Id expect to see a team that looked well drilled in the basics of passing and shape, whatever other limitations it may have.
No no no, last night Ole clearly had the opportunity to bring on VDB who would have moved the ball a lot faster than Matic or Fred but he chose not to. He could have brought on Diallo to bring on something different to what Rashford and Mason was offering and he chose not to. Ole does not adapt tactics based on how the game plays out - he has a fixed game plan and continues to make like for like substitutes. We should be able to beat the likes of Palace, WBA, Sheffield Utd easily on most occasions with the squad we have yet we always struggle against them....
They can replace the weak links because they can afford to.
We should only be concerned about them when they play us, and the concern should only ever be how we're going to beat them.
Why should we care if City just stuffed West Brom 8-nil or if Liverpool just dropped more points? We shouldn't react to other teams. Championship winning teams set the bar.
which teams this year look well drilled in the basics more than united out of interest?
Of course it’s that reason It’s why we need Grealish and Haaland.
The man is over performing but people are too shortsighted to see it.
Pogba is largely shit and so is mata and James.
VDB is just a shit signing.
The man is over performing but people are too shortsighted to see it.
Pogba is largely shit and so is mata and James.
VDB is just a shit signing.
We've spent enough money, we've spent it poorly. Down to LVG, Jose and Ole himself. Obviously underpinned by the lack of structure and forward thinking by the higher ups. Also, I don't think they truly care about us winning big trophies, they just want us to be in them.
But the big issue with the tweet in the OP is that even when we had those players available, generally we were still plodding along. Took a Pogba wonderstrike to beat Fulham. Narrowly beat Burnley, lost to Sheffield with Pogba starting and VDB and Mata on the bench.
Just looking at the league, how many times have we won comfortably? Not 3-0 or anything. A solid, dominant performance?
Newcastle away, Everton away, West Ham away (in the end, 1st half was shocking), Leeds home, Southampton at home (10 men for 88 minutes, still played very well) and Newcastle at home.
6 games and a couple of them have stipulations. I honestly don't feel that's an exaggeration. 6 comfortable league games out of 27. A lot of heart shown at times to make some decent comebacks. Saints away for example, they never deserved to be 2-0 up, but that's the issue isn't it. We won but very uncomfortably. And that's an indicator of quality.
The tweet is treating last night like a kneejerk reaction when it's anything but. 11 games of poor results, nearly a seasons worth of poor performances.
But the big issue with the tweet in the OP is that even when we had those players available, generally we were still plodding along. Took a Pogba wonderstrike to beat Fulham. Narrowly beat Burnley, lost to Sheffield with Pogba starting and VDB and Mata on the bench.
Just looking at the league, how many times have we won comfortably? Not 3-0 or anything. A solid, dominant performance?
Newcastle away, Everton away, West Ham away (in the end, 1st half was shocking), Leeds home, Southampton at home (10 men for 88 minutes, still played very well) and Newcastle at home.
6 games and a couple of them have stipulations. I honestly don't feel that's an exaggeration. 6 comfortable league games out of 27. A lot of heart shown at times to make some decent comebacks. Saints away for example, they never deserved to be 2-0 up, but that's the issue isn't it. We won but very uncomfortably. And that's an indicator of quality.
The tweet is treating last night like a kneejerk reaction when it's anything but. 11 games of poor results, nearly a seasons worth of poor performances.
I’ll reply to you point by point.
Point 1: Yes. Almost Pep’s entire Barca team was La Masia products, and you can’t say he only gave those who were too good to fail chances. He played Tello, Roberto, Thiago etc over some world stars in big games. Thiago’s good, but he’s not exactly Iniesta. Not sure about Bayern but at City, he’s the one who blooded Foden, Garcia who’s off to Barca, he played Delap against Leicester. I’m even including the final example when they got hammered because it’s not about success or failure, it’s risk taking. With Klopp, I don’t understand how you can even throw that at me. Search up the amount of young players he gave games to at Dortmund. Mourinho would surely be a better example.
Point 2: Let’s be clear here, he didn’t play Pogba that game because he had it with Raiola. Not because he didn’t recognise Pogba’s talent. I’ll throw one at you too: would Fergie play 7 defenders, including the twins as flying wingers, because he knew he would absolutely nullify Wenger and Arsenal?
Point 3: I don’t know, you tell me. I’ve given you the examples to say it is. You’re telling me it isn’t.
Tweets like that are clutching at straws. We've spent money too... well I say spent, I meant flushed money down the toilet.
You need to have a good balance.
Great players who come at a premium cost (like KDB or Pogba)
Great players that have been carefully scouted and would now cost premium (Bruno or Dias or VVD)
Great potential (difficult to predict the future but the likes of Foden and Greenwood should fit this)
Then you need a good coach that can motivate the players and tactically has the game-plans/able to implement changes in a game to help the players win football matches.
And of course a board that forward planning, not looking solely at the balance and counting the points to see if we can scrape top 4.
Obviously, there are another million things needed.
This idea that if you throw enough money at players and you'll win the league is the Football Manager mentality and just doesn't work.
United ourselves have thrown money around at players and it's made no difference as we have had absolute buffoons running the club and coaches that are just not a right fit for us.
You need to have a good balance.
Great players who come at a premium cost (like KDB or Pogba)
Great players that have been carefully scouted and would now cost premium (Bruno or Dias or VVD)
Great potential (difficult to predict the future but the likes of Foden and Greenwood should fit this)
Then you need a good coach that can motivate the players and tactically has the game-plans/able to implement changes in a game to help the players win football matches.
And of course a board that forward planning, not looking solely at the balance and counting the points to see if we can scrape top 4.
Obviously, there are another million things needed.
This idea that if you throw enough money at players and you'll win the league is the Football Manager mentality and just doesn't work.
United ourselves have thrown money around at players and it's made no difference as we have had absolute buffoons running the club and coaches that are just not a right fit for us.
We spent less than 50 million this summer.
Harry Maguire cost the same as Ake and Otamendi.
Can anyone explain how the "missing" players factor into this argument? Would it become invalid the moment two of the mentioned City players became "unavailable" through injury, loss of form or any other reason? Also, if the argument is that Ole does not have the same quality and depth of creative players at his disposal, I don't think including the transfer fees does it any favours, seeing how Bruno (£68m), Pogba (£89m), Fred (£47m), van de Beek (£40m), Mata (£37m) and James (£15m) actually cost more (£296m) than City's collective (£276m).
By the way, Ferran is a decent enough winger, but would he provide more than Greenwood (who is not even mentioned in the tweet) has so far?
By the way, Ferran is a decent enough winger, but would he provide more than Greenwood (who is not even mentioned in the tweet) has so far?
your example of Pep is when he played Delap. Out of interest do you give any credit for Ole for Greenwood/Williams/Mctominay/Henderson/Amad/Chong/Tunazebe/Shoretime?
No. I'm not blaming Ole. I'm saying that's the real difference between us and City. City have the luxury of resting players because they trust their backups. We don't so we're running our starters ragged and then acting surprised when their form drops.
I think I speak for everyone when I say, who the feck is Tim Long Sports?
Cavani, Martial, Rashford, VBD, Pogba, Greenwood.
All they’ve done is listed City’s forward players. I honestly don’t think the overall quality is that different. We’re absolutely kidding ourselves if we’re thinking the above players wouldn’t slot right into Pep’s squad.
All they’ve done is listed City’s forward players. I honestly don’t think the overall quality is that different. We’re absolutely kidding ourselves if we’re thinking the above players wouldn’t slot right into Pep’s squad.
The point of the tweet is to say that City’s attack is much more potent than ours and has much more options. Saying City’s attack is cheaper ignores the fact that players like Sterling/Aguero and De Bruyne were signed long before the market exploded. However, they’ve got a strength in depth to rotate/keep fresh/bring players into form. A luxury we don’t have- listing Mata and Fred as viable attacking players doesn’t change that fact.
Embarrassing tweet really. The obsession with city is very telling. It's all down to shit coaching, shit recruitment, and shit management, but sure lets deflect and talk (again) about city's spending.
You don’t think Citys attacking players are bette me than what you have just mentioned?
Completely agree.
Also, Sterling was £50m and Kevin was £54m.
This guy must not know much about football. We have spent as much as City. We have as good a depth. Pogba cost more than any city midfielder, then we have martial, vdb, Diallo, and mata who cost as much as some of the players he described. Plus we have Rashford and Greenwood who are academy players who are valued over £50m.
Coaching is the issue. We have a squad that has the depth to compete with city and definitely beat the like of crystal palace, west brom, sheffield and so on.
200m midfield.
Can't beat palace.
Embarassing tweet
Can't beat palace.
Embarassing tweet
we have a squad to compete with City?
can you do me a favour. If I list two first elevens, can you compare who you think would get into the rest of the teams if those players were out?
De Gea,
Wan Bisaka,
Lindelof,
Maguire,
Shaw
Pogba,
Mctominay,
Bruno
Rashford,
Cavani,
Martial
v
ederson,
Walker,
Stones,
Dias,
Cancelo
Gundogan,
Rodri,
De Bruyne
Sterling,
Foden,
Mahrez
Yeah it's just frustrating that even when things are going well it's always rumbling under the surface, constant negativity. I do agree last night was woeful, properly bad. I said so at the time.
What worries me is that I can't see an Ole replacement available that really brings a lot to the table, we still need that next transfer window to finish this rebuild and then if we are underachieving next season then I would be the first to agree it's time for a change. Change for changes sake at the moment I feel would just likely set us back another 3 years.
There's no way Ole, having played his entire career and learned the game from one of the most attacking coaches ever in SAF (and not to mention being a striker himself) would have sent his players out to play like they did last night. Likewise every time they've started slowly or not given their all, I just don't see that as purely the managers fault. I get angry with the players first in those games and the lack of leadership and responsibility on the pitch. I agree the manager instils the mindset and approach and that nights like last night are a concern, I just don't want us to totally disregard the positives when the ideal candidate isn't exactly waiting in the wings.
Who did we sign?
We saw how well he did in his first season at City though. They were a disaster after their great start.
1 defeat in 21 doesnt scream lacking basic passing and shape to be honest.
no white text? hmmm ok
Diallo didn’t confirm the signing till January and Pellestri was clearly signed for the reserves.
Do you really think including them makes your point better?
With all the money the Glazers have pumped into the club, right?Poor us, with barely a pair of coins to rub together.
If Ole had of bought De Bruyne, Mahrez and Sterling they'd go the same way as every other player we have so maybe Pep deserves credit for getting the best out of them?
Nice argument if you have spent as much as Burnley. But for us is just a rather poor excuse. He have spent less than City, but that doesn't take away our blame for our irrelevance the last 8 years.
Edit: since the tweet includes Ferran, its our mistake that we were trying to purchase Sancho for 100 millions without looking for alternatives, especially a cheap one like Ferran. It just makes worse his whole argument.
Edit: since the tweet includes Ferran, its our mistake that we were trying to purchase Sancho for 100 millions without looking for alternatives, especially a cheap one like Ferran. It just makes worse his whole argument.
Which players has Ole made worse?
he has spent a lot less than City who were at a much stronger place than us.
We are ahead of every other club in the country.
Given the context(United trying to get back to former glory), that is the saddest list of signings I've seen. Not a single starter. And before you bring up Cavani: he's in his mid-30's and a marginal improvement to Martial at best.
I understand that due to their successes City buy from a position of strength and we don't but that doesn't mean we couldn't have done better with our outlay either. I mean the last two seasons alone we spent upwards of 250m and apart from Bruno I don't think we spent it efficently at all.
Tweets like these reek of desperation when you throw Foden, Gundogan and Ferran in there. Its not like we didn't blow godly amounts and salaries on our players.
Bottom line is Man City have a manager that is high tactical and technical acumen. I don't even blame Ole, its a very high bar and virtually no other manager can compare.
Bottom line is Man City have a manager that is high tactical and technical acumen. I don't even blame Ole, its a very high bar and virtually no other manager can compare.