“The best way to defend is far, far away from your own goal” | BluesJr sings about the Blues

[BluesJr]

I know what you’re thinking, another City thread. Although it’s a Pep quote it’s not really about them.

How completely simple and true is that statement? I’ve always believed attack is the best form of defence. LVG had the right idea but was too cautious in his approach and made largely terrible signings however we looked good against our rivals whereas now we just look like amateurs at times quite frankly.

What do you think? Would you like to see us get back to a possession based game or you happy to sit back, not press and wait for our defenders to gift goals away?

 

[Pexbo]

Exactly what Van Gaal used to have us do. Us United fans loved it.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Ideally, I'd like to see us play akin to a Pep team, but it's not a necessity.

I just want us to win the Prem again.

 

[El Jefe]

His teams usually concede the least number of goals so it's hard to say he's incorrect.

 

[Theonas]

Exactly what Van Gaal used to have us do. Us United fans loved it.

He failed at the execution of that principle. Obviously any idea of playing would fail if it is not executed well.

 

[TheReligion]

United look amateurs at times yet sit second in the PL and in the last stages of European football.

Some luck we must be having. Performing the best we have done since Sir Alex left.

The Caf is mental

 

[Crashoutcassius]

We are officially a manchester city forum hahaha

 

[SteveJ]

F*cking stroll on...

 

[Theonas]

It's not like anybody actually disagree with that, the question is how realistic is it to achieve considering how difficult it is. No manager prefers to play close to their goal unless they feel they are not equipped enough to push higher up. It is why you never see a game between two sides that are not matched quality wise, where the superior team chooses to sit back and soak up pressure. So what Guardiola is saying is not controversial in itself, it is that almost no one can actually execute it without sacrificing something. LvG could not make it work for example when the ball reached the final third whereas someone like Klopp struggles with consistency and being open to counters and set pieces.

 

[BluesJr]

The thread isn’t about City, they are just an example, as I mentioned in the OP, it’s about defending in general.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Obviously.

 

[Skills]

Exactly what Van Gaal used to have us do. Us United fans loved it.

Yeah, he just did it badly.

 

[Strachans Cigar]

A fast counter attacking team can always cause such a team problems with the space left behind. As long as they are competent executing those tactics.

Mind you, when the counter attacking team are hacked or pulled back cynically when the possession monster has his pants occasionally pulled down...well it’s clearly not even up for debate is it?

All hail St. Pep!!!!

 

[Cal?]

I would prefer to see us play like Real Madrid last season than tiki taka Barca.

 

[DWelbz19]

I would prefer to see us play like Real Madrid last season than tiki taka Barca.

Both teams defended far away from their goals.

 

[Cal?]

Both teams defended far away from their goals.

Real can defend deep when needed, they can execute different game plans depending on opposition.

Barca had an excellent plan A, but no plan B.

 

[AshRK]

I want our manager to not make this game complicated. Football is a simple game and let us not make it complicated.

 

[AshRK]

A fast counter attacking team can always cause such a team problems with the space left behind. As long as they are competent executing those tactics.

Mind you, when the counter attacking team are hacked or pulled back cynically when the possession monster has his pants occasionally pulled down...well it’s clearly not even up for debate is it?

All hail St. Pep!!!!

Amen.

 

[Hoof the ball]

That's the point that many people miss. They think that counter-attacking is accomplished only by sitting super-deep, soaking up pressure and exploding from there. Good counter-attacking is about how quick the transition is from defence (wherever on the pitch that is) to attack. That's the difference with Madrid's recent successful counter-attack and ours. It's not primarily about pitch position, but collective response to the transition.

 

[ivaldo]

Having the best set of players in the league is the best way to defend. If your club doesn't already possess the best team: spend, spend, spend - hey Pep?

 

[lysglimt]

I just don't understand why we don't put really high pressure on inferior teams - it's not like they usually have the skills to play their way out of defense.

 

[Canagel]

I would prefer to see us play like Real Madrid last season than tiki taka Barca.

Agreed. I found the counter attacking style of Madrid more exciting to watch than possession based style of Barcelona. They won the title by scoring 121 goals in the 2011/12 campaign outscoring Barcelona who many consider to be the best club side in history. We have never been a club who play possession based football. Even one of our greatest ever teams (the 2007/08 one) got dominated by Barcelona and had to put men behind the ball in the semis of the CL at Old Trafford. There are more similarities between us and Madrid and their team last season has to be the template for us to copy.

 

[Cal?]

Agreed. I found the counter attacking style of Madrid more exciting to watch than possession based style of Barcelona. They won the title by scoring 121 goals in the 2011/12 campaign outscoring Barcelona who many consider to be the best club side in history. We have never been a club who play possession based football. Even one of our greatest ever teams (the 2007/08 one) got dominated by Barcelona and had to put men behind the ball in the semis of the CL at Old Trafford. There are more similarities between us and Madrid and their team last season has to be the template for us to copy.

The only problem is that we're seriously lacking the players to make it work.

 

[iamherenow]

Man spent almost 500m to build his squad and want to be giving us football lessons,what happened to the philosophy last year?..he hasn't won a cl since barca have with his footballing lesson
As long as you can execute a proper counterattacking plan,his team will be found out

 

[AshRK]

The only problem is that we're seriously lacking the players to make it work.

Which is why perisic was very important. Jose still needs one more window to play effective counterattacking football.

 

[iamherenow]

The only problem is that we're seriously lacking the players to make it work.

Back mourinho properly in the transfer market,not this nonsense of giving him 150m and telling him to sell to buy more knowing fully well our deadwoods are proper deadwoods...the market has changed significantly that half of our budget can only get you a Virgil van dijk

 

[Theonas]

Agreed. I found the counter attacking style of Madrid more exciting to watch than possession based style of Barcelona. They won the title by scoring 121 goals in the 2011/12 campaign outscoring Barcelona who many consider to be the best club side in history. We have never been a club who play possession based football. Even one of our greatest ever teams (the 2007/08 one) got dominated by Barcelona and had to put men behind the ball in the semis of the CL at Old Trafford. There are more similarities between us and Madrid and their team last season has to be the template for us to copy.

Playing a counter attacking game is very unrealistic for any big club, especially one playing in the PL. Most of the games you player are against teams happy with a 0/0, they are not leaving you any space to counter. That Real Madrid team were brilliant at their transitions, their counters were fast but there were not a counter attacking team in the same way say Leicester were. They were direct yes but they did not sit deep against the majority of Spanish opponent and counter.

When you play direct football, you need that first goal more than usual as it forces the opponent out a little bit more. That Real team benefitted from having one of, if not the greatest goalscoring machine in history getting them countless first goals as well as the significant factor that Spanish teams tend to sit deep and refuse to come out much less than English or sometimes Italian teams. By Mourinho's third season, Real's ability to efficiently play that direct brand football suffered greatly as they started finding space hard to come by, the same as any team who attempt to play like that would.

The point about our team never playing a possession based style is really irrelevant. If by possession you mean the extent to which Barcelona took it, then no one really ever played possession football. We, like everybody else always tried to have possession however. It's just that nobody has ever been as good as they have been at it and by good, I don't mean keeping possession, I mean having it work in all areas of the pitch. The game you are referring to is actually evidence to the contrary of what you are trying to say. We did not intend to soak up as much pressure at OT as we ended up doing, we were forced to to the point where the great man himself announced how he did not like seeing us forced to play like that in our own home. He disliked it so much one can argue it affected his approach to them in the following two finals.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

He failed at the execution of that principle. Obviously any idea of playing would fail if it is not executed well.

Well we got a lot of 0-0 from it . I guess the problem was no need to defend before you actually are a goal up. After that we didn't even keep the ball that well.

 

[dichinero]

It's a problem when your £90m striker does not know which direction to go and decides to play goal pinata.

 

[nikineil]

United look amateurs at times yet sit second in the PL and in the last stages of European football.

Some luck we must be having. Performing the best we have done since Sir Alex left.

The Caf is mental

This. I've seen so many threads describing how we're average yet City are the best team since football was invented. Frankly, it does seem like a City forum, especially on match days.

I think having the faith that Jose will bring back our good times is vital. Every system in football has its pros and cons. Jose will be working on destroying Pep next season and thats the mark of a great manager. Conte did it by changing the system and everybody followed suit. I'm thinking Jose is the trendsetter this time around.

 

[wolvored]

When we pass the ball around a dozen times in our own half before usually hoofing it forward, thats neither possession football or counter attack. We need to play from the start how we played against burnley for the first goal. Liverpool can do it with inferior (cost wise on paper) players, so we should be able to master this as well. Whether you will get this with Mourinho is another matter.

 

[dichinero]

When we pass the ball around a dozen times in our own half before usually hoofing it forward, thats neither possession football or counter attack. We need to play from the start how we played against burnley for the first goal. Liverpool can do it with inferior (cost wise on paper) players, so we should be able to master this as well. Whether you will get this with Mourinho is another matter.

I was really beginning to wonder what was so counter attacking about us when we can't string more than 3 passes together, then endlessly and aimlessly hoof and cross. Our tactics deserves it's own name.

 

[Snow]

Yeah, he just did it badly.

No, he did it well. That's just it, he just defended and didn't do much attacking.

 

[clarkydaz]

that would mean spending time in the last 3rd of the pitch, which we never did under LVG

 

[Theonas]

I would prefer to see us play like Real Madrid last season than tiki taka Barca.

http://www.marca.com/en/football/real-madrid/2017/09/07/59b16224468aebb9798b4596.html

Even the manager of that team has more aspirations than that.

 

[adexkola]

That's the point that many people miss. They think that counter-attacking is accomplished only by sitting super-deep, soaking up pressure and exploding from there. Good counter-attacking is about how quick the transition is from defence (wherever on the pitch that is) to attack. That's the difference with Madrid's recent successful counter-attack and ours. It's not primarily about pitch position, but collective response to the transition.

What this bloke said.

Despite their capitulation against Barcelona, Madrid at times displayed why they are such a fearsome counter-attacking side. And their moves usually start in the middle of the pitch after they get the ball, not deep in their half. It's no coincidence that United were dreaded on the counter, with Rooney and Tevez supporting Ronaldo in 2008.

Whether you dominate possession or look to profit off the opponent's mistakes, you'll be much better off winning the ball up the field than meters from your goal.

So this thread isn't about City or Pep. It's about a methodology that top teams in the past and present use to great effect.

 

[SuperiorXI]

feck me Sherlock

 

[adexkola]

feck me Sherlock

My dear Watson... no.

 

[leontas]

It's pretty obvious if you ask me. Plus the further up you win the ball back, the more likely you can catch the opposing team off-guard and cause problems.

 

[Boycott]

Playing a counter attacking game is very unrealistic for any big club, especially one playing in the PL. Most of the games you player are against teams happy with a 0/0, they are not leaving you any space to counter. That Real Madrid team were brilliant at their transitions, their counters were fast but there were not a counter attacking team in the same way say Leicester were. They were direct yes but they did not sit deep against the majority of Spanish opponent and counter.

When you play direct football, you need that first goal more than usual as it forces the opponent out a little bit more. That Real team benefitted from having one of, if not the greatest goalscoring machine in history getting them countless first goals as well as the significant factor that Spanish teams tend to sit deep and refuse to come out much less than English or sometimes Italian teams. By Mourinho's third season, Real's ability to efficiently play that direct brand football suffered greatly as they started finding space hard to come by, the same as any team who attempt to play like that would.

The point about our team never playing a possession based style is really irrelevant. If by possession you mean the extent to which Barcelona took it, then no one really ever played possession football. We, like everybody else always tried to have possession however. It's just that nobody has ever been as good as they have been at it and by good, I don't mean keeping possession, I mean having it work in all areas of the pitch. The game you are referring to is actually evidence to the contrary of what you are trying to say. We did not intend to soak up as much pressure at OT as we ended up doing, we were forced to to the point where the great man himself announced how he did not like seeing us forced to play like that in our own home. He disliked it so much one can argue it affected his approach to them in the following two finals.

Very good post but would like to add something that people overlook. In Spain head to head comes before goal difference. Bottom clubs losing by six, seven, eight to Barcelona and Madrid doesn't matter so long as you keep in reach of the teams around you. Whereas in England damage limitation kicks in because each goal conceded is a dent.