Well even allowing all those disasters had we beaten Leeds alone it would still even be a little interesting. But i can't get on board with criticising not winning the league when so many of those now demanding it didn't seem to think we could even get top 4. Im going to stay encouraged by continuing to progress and hope this summer we buy far better than last
“United don’t even fancy it” - Carragher
- Thread starter Schmeichel's Cartwheel
- Start date
- Status
Until we learn how to get through teams who put up a wall and defend in numbers against us we will never win the title.
It happens week in, week out yet Ole and his cronies don't have the answers, methods or know how to break down the deep defending teams.
It happens week in, week out yet Ole and his cronies don't have the answers, methods or know how to break down the deep defending teams.
Yeah like you say even Leeds victory has us two points closer but then they have been top notch at home against the big six so will focus on that period earlier in the year where ultimately the pressure of title talk unsettled us
A couple of shit draws turned into wins would've made the next few weeks very interesting.
Yeah quite possibly
There's still just too many games where we don't look like we're arsed. Sometimes we still manage to come out on top, but it'll never be enough to win the league
That is a very valid point indeed
To a degree, but you will recall that Carragher’s comments came before Everton, Sheffield etc. I don’t agree as being classified as some sort of ‘moaner’, I’m extremely optimistic about the team. For me, the only issue I had is the noises that were coming from the camp (and beyond) when we were level on top. It was all ‘not thinking about the title, just want to improve’, ‘nobody thinks they can win it’ etc. We were top. Who should think they can win it if not us?!
Are you stuck in a 2019 or 2020?
Maybe we just dropped more points than City because we're not as good as them?
Using your argument about Moyes & Leicester, I can also say the same that Ole & Manchester United still managed to find a way to be in 2nd place despite before the season started, the expectation from all football fans /pundits/journalists believe that United won't finish in top 4 because United failed to strengthen their main XI teams while the other teams strengthened their main team.
You are all over the place right now mate. In the first paragraph you said ''I don’t necessarily expect better from the squad'' but in the last paragraph you are saying ''We have the squad to win the league now, but some players are not winners and are not doing enough''. This makes zero sense, you don't expect better from the squad but you actually expect better? Choose which one mate.
No matter how talented players are, players still need time to develop to be matured and fulfil their potential. We lost the attitude before Ole came in and Ole is building that attitude and mentality again from scratch and we have shown sign of progress in our attitude and mentality this season. I don't understand what do you expect better from Ole? You need to say it what you expect better, even Ole said himself 2nd is not good enough. But that's the point he's building and developing the squad & players so we can do better than being 3rd and 2nd.
They have more losses than us.
We just have a lot of draws due to approaching games very cautiously at times.
Or we just weren't good enough to win those games at the time. City lost yesterday because they played a second string. Totally irrelevant.
You can't just lock in every win and say yeah we deserved that, that's how good we are. But then say every dropped point is because we didn't try harder or whatever. Every team can say the same thing.
I think the pragmatic approach mid season has cost us a few points, Liverpool at Anfield immediately springs to mind. Arsenal also. Those games could have been won with more ambition. All in all it’s been a much better season though, we just need to be a little braver at times in the bigger games. I think a centre back or a defensive midfielder would help our defence issues out too. The Sheffield loss was inexcusable.
We can say if we won these games we'd have been champions but we didn't win because our team is still lacking.
Our signings except Cavani haven't made much difference. If we spent the VDB money on someone who could've improved the first team we might've gotten closer.
If Pogba had stayed fit for longer we might have gotten closer.
Our signings except Cavani haven't made much difference. If we spent the VDB money on someone who could've improved the first team we might've gotten closer.
If Pogba had stayed fit for longer we might have gotten closer.
I thought City are so far ahead that they can win any game with their 2nd string?
In any case, even at the time when those matches happened the pragmatic approach to the games was pointed out. We played for a draw vs most of the traditional top teams and were satisfied afterwards. Little did we know that teams like Chelsea, Liverpool, and Arsenal were actually pretty shite and we should have gone for the 3 points.
Hopefully it's a lesson learned for next season.
We didn't play for the draws we just weren't good enough to win. Mainly from a lack of quality in attack.
City were playing a fellow CL finalist who have almost as strong a squad as them.
We still have to address holes in our starting 11 (CB, CDM, RW, striker) while city could field two very competitive starting 11s. City’s depth is unbelievable in comparison to ours. The fact we can keep the gap to under 10 points would be an accomplishment.
Here are the post match reactions.
0-0 vs Chelsea: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/post-match-vs-chelsea.458401/
0-1 vs Arsenal: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/post-match-vs-arsenal.458586/
0-0 vs City: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/post-match-vs-manchester-city.459499/
0-0 vs Liverpool: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/post-match-vs-liverpool.460281/
0-0 vs Arsenal: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/post-match-vs-arsenal.460571/
0-0 vs Chelsea: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/post-match-vs-chelsea.461173/
0-0 vs Palace: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/post-match-vs-crystal-palace.461240/
We all saw the lack of ambition at the time and pointed out as much in the post match discussions. Just because a bit of time has passed doesn't mean that we've forgotten how it actually panned out.
The opposition can all say the same.
Picking one out, look at the team for the Arsenal game. It's what most would call our strongest line up, it just wasn't good enough.
We dropped 4 points with minutes to go against Leicester and Everton, got 1 point out of 6 vs Palace and lost to Sheffield at home. That’s the title gone right there, in about a month.
I have issues with our big game record this season as well, but playing for draws in them wasn’t the issue. Losing points from eminently winnable fixtures or winning position was.
It's not a coincidence we're the ones with the substantial number of 0-0 draws and not the opposition.
More 0-1 defeats would be better?
You are taking a blinkered view where results could have only been better, never worse, including the victories.
Of course, if coupled with a few 1-0 wins.
A win and a loss > 2 draws, after all. Hopefully that's the lesson for next season.
Yeah if we could get two of those first three positions which I will admit looks an ask in this market and keep Edi then that will be a big positive for next season. Obviously in an ideal world you get all three and maybe even a backup RB like Trippier too but no way are we signing four players in one window.
Well that isn’t using my logic at all is it. My logic is that Moyes found himself in the top 4 and didn’t come out saying his target was top half. He said he wants to make the top 4. While we found ourselves first but refused to commit with wanting to stay there. Neither United nor West Ham were predicted to be first or 4th respectively at the beginning of the season, yet having reached there - Moyes didn’t try to run away from it.
I’m not all over the place mate, it’s the same argument. Read your initial post that I responded to. You literally said ‘I cannot expect a winning mentality from the squad’, to which I said I at least expect one from Ole. Ole is a Manchester United man who knows what the demands are of the club. So if some of the players don’t seem to get/embrace it, I at least expect him to. I wouldn’t have expected him to be saying we aren’t thinking about it. My own opinion of the squad is higher than others. Everyone acts as if Liverpool and City sign all the world’s best players and we don’t. I remember where all those players were and their standing before they joined those clubs. Not superior to the calibre of players we sign. Those players are not better than ours. They have just been programmed to believe they are and play as they are.
As I’ve said, I appreciate that players need time. I’m happy with the progress of the squad, and I’m happy with the manager. Quite simply, I was not happy with their response to going top. Players like Pogba and Bruno were quite clear in their message at the time. They didn’t skirt around it. They came out and said clearly that they want to win. I don’t think it is unreasonable to predict that despite squads needing time and all the other stuff you have said that I’m not disputing - had Moyes found himself at the top of the league - he may have come out and said that they want to win it. Of course, they probably wouldn’t, and nobody would chastise them if they didn’t, because predictions, squads take time etc. But don’t run from it.
Also, you keep saying about the time it takes etc. There is no fixed time. Carragher’s words were very specific. He didn’t say that, he said that it is a fantastic opportunity for us. You cannot just give points to other teams. You may think that you are ‘not yet at Liverpool and City’s level’ which assumes perfection from them and imperfection from us. You don’t know how far you are from them. Turns out that Liverpool fell away unexpectedly this year. Is it because it was not in our plan to be ahead of them that we should not embrace the fact that we are? City also hadn’t hit the heights at that point. Stop hiding. Perhaps we are not behind them. Maybe we will be again next season, but if here and now we are not - we shouldn’t be talking down the title. If we’re top, we’re top.
This notion of waiting for the perfect moment to compete, once we have spent hundreds of millions on all the perfect players isn’t the way for me. Just to repeat, I’m happy with the progress. But I feel that we accepted that we are not ready to win the league prematurely. Such an assumption can only be based on a perceived strength of other teams, but doesn’t consider what happens if those teams don’t meet that expected standard? Do you now adjust yours and go backwards so that you can remain behind them where you belong? If so, Leicester and West Ham should do the same this season and move aside for Chelsea and Liverpool on the basis that nobody would have expected them to qualify for the CL ahead of them.
I don’t think it’s fair or honest to say we’ve “pissed away” the title. City won about 15 games in a row mid season & went from about 9th to runaway leaders. We were never going to be able to keep pace with that.
They win trophies because of their unbelievable depth. No team in the league can compete with it. Their second string 11 would probably finish top 4. Ours would be in a relegation battle.
They win trophies because of their unbelievable depth. No team in the league can compete with it. Their second string 11 would probably finish top 4. Ours would be in a relegation battle.
Yeah very reminiscent of when they did something similar in the 17/18 season before drawing at Palace
True but the same approach also won us the games we did. A higher risk approach could have drawn and lost us more. It works both ways.
Your logic is sound. The problem is, the reality is that those teams were actually pretty shite and going for the win would probably have given us 3 points instead of depriving us of one.
In hindsight, no Utd fan would ever say that we shouldn't have gone for the win against the 10th (Arsenal) or 6th (Liverpool) or 9th (Chelsea with Lampard) best team in the league. Liverpool's home form after our draw is a great example.
Last edited:
Yeah we gave those teams too much respect when grossly out of form in hindsight
Everything is easy in hindsight. If we'd have lost those games after 'going for it' you can be sure you would have been destroying Ole on here for it as well.
I do expect us to beat the 10th and 6th and 9th placed teams. Going for it should be the default, and a loss shouldn't be praised simply because we mustered up the courage to try and beat midtable teams.
With that said despite the point gain being the same, many people speak of the Everton draw more positively than the Palace draw purely because of the memorably positive approach to our game vs Everton.
So if we're ever in a lower position mid season you will accept that we should lose all such games? Chelsea and Liverpool will most likely finish 3rd and 4th. They were decent results at the time.
In such a scenario I might expect losses to higher placed teams, but I wouldn't accept them and would probably want the manager gone.
In any case, I don't see how those draws were anything but missed opportunities. The Liverpool one was especially egregious due the sheer number of lower quality teams rolling up after us to collect basically free points from Anfield.
Do you even have a clue what Moyes & Ole said?
What is this then? Mind to explain? Because that's not words of a man who refused to commit with wanting to stay there is it.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
You are over the place because your first paragraph & last paragraph make no sense. Your last paragraph said players are good enough to win the league this season. If they are good enough then why in your first sentence you are not expecting players to do better to be good enough to win the league but only expecting the manager to do better?? Clearly you should be expecting equally on both players & manager if you think the player also good enough. You should be expecting the squad to be as good as the City squad because they are the standard to be called good enough to win the league this season.
You have yet tell me what do you expect better from what Ole said and his response to going top. I am still waiting for your answer of my question. Based on your post so far, it is very clear to me that you are just guessing with no clue what the manager said publicly and in the dressing room. You are just saying ''don't run from it'', ''look at Moyes''. He didn't run from it and Moyes pretty much said similar thing about his top 4 chance.
All in hindsight. Liverpool were still favourites to win that game.
Well if it makes you feel better, I'll say (in hindsight) we were too cautious vs struggling teams, which no doubt ended up costing us a fair amount of points.
That must be a lesson learned for next season.
Whether we pull it back or not, today is the actual story of our season. Not us bottling it when pressure is on or being too conservative against big teams but rather us giving away a cheap goal that leaves us having to get a result the hard way. Sometimes we manage it, sometimes we don't but we've done this to ourselves too often. I think this is the fifteenth time we've fallen behind in the PL this season?
- Status