“United don’t even fancy it” - Carragher

Siorac

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We played 9 games post-lockdown, going 6-3-0. However, during that run we had a relatively easy schedule, where the best team we faced was Tottenham. I don't think you could realistically expect the team to reproduce quite that over a whole season, or for that matter the weirdly exceptional record we had against top teams last season, before as well as after Bruno arrived.

But I agree with your general point that ~75 points is a reasonable expectation, and 75-80 a reasonable aim. When pundits and others speak of us doing better than expected, that only makes sense in terms of table position, which certainly is better than expected. But that's due to the relative failure of others, not overperformance from us.
Yeah, sorry, that was meant to say 'after Bruno signed' - it was a bit of a brainfart. Extrapolating that post-Bruno form over a whole season would be 87 points; it would indeed be quite unreasonable to expect that from the current side with the current schedule. But that run still informs my expectations: we're capable of such form and that's partly why I think that, as you say, 75-80 points is a very reasonable aim for a full season and why something like 70 points would be a disappointment even if it's technically an improvement over the whole of last season.
 

justsomebloke

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Yeah, sorry, that was meant to say 'after Bruno signed' - it was a bit of a brainfart. Extrapolating that post-Bruno form over a whole season would be 87 points; it would indeed be quite unreasonable to expect that from the current side with the current schedule. But that run still informs my expectations: we're capable of such form and that's partly why I think that, as you say, 75-80 points is a very reasonable aim for a full season and why something like 70 points would be a disappointment even if it's technically an improvement over the whole of last season.
Full agreement there.

If we look at the remaining schedule, it's not going to be easy for us to get to 80 points. We can only drop another 10 points. We have home games left against Leicester and Liverpool, and away games against Tottenham, City and Chelsea. We need at a minimum five points in those five games. And then only with wins in all of the other remaining ten games. Not impossible, but I'm not sure I'd put good money on it.
 

POF

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Great ain’t it, United have a chance this year because Covid happened so city and Liverpool are not as good because of it. Silly United not taking advantage of something that only affected last years top two
They've also been criticised for not going for the win at Anfield. Away against the "best Premier League team ever" they should be dominating apparently. It's such a strange narrative.

Van Dijk is out and it's treated like Liverpool couldn't possibly compete against these insurmountable odds.

I keep seeing this from a lot of people, that somehow we're overachieving and exceeding expectations. And that's baffling to me: just how low were your expectations to begin with?

I mean, we are on course for 74 points, we crashed out of our CL group after winning the first two games, and lost to the first decent team in the League Cup. It's just about on par. If we finish with 80+ points in the end and win something, then we can say we exceeded expectations. For now? No way.
After 3 points from the first 3 games (2 at home) due to no preseason, I certainly didn't expect United to be 5 points clear of Liverpool just after the half way point of the season.

Nobody gave United a chance of challenging Liverpool this season, let alone holding a comfortable lead over them in the league and knocking them out of the FA Cup.
 

justsomebloke

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They've also been criticised for not going for the win at Anfield. Away against the "best Premier League team ever" they should be dominating apparently. It's such a strange narrative.

Van Dijk is out and it's treated like Liverpool couldn't possibly compete against these insurmountable odds.



After 3 points from the first 3 games (2 at home) due to no preseason, I certainly didn't expect United to be 5 points clear of Liverpool just after the half way point of the season.

Nobody gave United a chance of challenging Liverpool this season, let alone holding a comfortable lead over them in the league and knocking them out of the FA Cup.
Yes, but it's Liverpool who has performed different to expectations, not United.
 

Siorac

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Full agreement there.

If we look at the remaining schedule, it's not going to be easy for us to get to 80 points. We can only drop another 10 points. We have home games left against Leicester and Liverpool, and away games against Tottenham, City and Chelsea. We need at a minimum five points in those five games. And then only with wins in all of the other remaining ten games. Not impossible, but I'm not sure I'd put good money on it.
Yeah, I wouldn't bet on it either. Getting 35 points from this position would be quite a feat because, well, dropping three points to Sheffield United was a major feck-up. But still, winning 10 games and going 1-2-2 in the five 'big games' is a reasonable aim. I expect us to fall short but it's not beyond the capabilities of the players.
 
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After 3 points from the first 3 games (2 at home) due to no preseason, I certainly didn't expect United to be 5 points clear of Liverpool just after the half way point of the season.

Nobody gave United a chance of challenging Liverpool this season, let alone holding a comfortable lead over them in the league and knocking them out of the FA Cup.
Liverpool have been absolutely awful and have just 40 points after 23 games. Last season they had 64 points after 22 games.
Being above them this season is hardly miraculous, hence why Leicester also have a 3 point lead on them and WHU are just one point behind. feck me, Everton are just 3 behind and have 2 games in hand.

Using a massively underperforming team as a yardstick is bizarre.
 

justsomebloke

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Yeah, I wouldn't bet on it either. Getting 35 points from this position would be quite a feat because, well, dropping three points to Sheffield United was a major feck-up. But still, winning 10 games and going 1-2-2 in the five 'big games' is a reasonable aim. I expect us to fall short but it's not beyond the capabilities of the players.
It strikes me that funnily, drawing against all the top teams and beating everyone else is exactly what we did in that long stretch between the loss to Arsenal and the loss to Sheffield United, so maybe that's a good sign. :)
 

POF

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Liverpool have been absolutely awful and have just 40 points after 23 games. Last season they had 64 points after 22 games.
Being above them this season is hardly miraculous, hence why Leicester also have a 3 point lead on them and WHU are just one point behind. feck me, Everton are just 3 behind and have 2 games in hand.

Using a massively underperforming team as a yardstick is bizarre.
There are individual circumstances for every team that give context to that team's performance. The fixture schedule for the top teams in this environment is clearly a mitigating factor which makes comparing points totals across seasons completely futile.

United's major issue this season was the start and lack of preseason. They were extremely underdone to start the season and the recovery to get where they are now is incredible.

Liverpool haven't been "absolutely awful". They are on a bad run over the last 6 weeks. At Christmas, they were clear on top, had just won 7-0 and everyone was falling over themselves to kiss Klopp's arse and call them the best team ever. City were 8th and have since gone on an amazing run. They're the in-form team.

That is how this season will go. Games come thick and fast and it's not easy to change momentum and arrest a slide.

After a great run of form, United have slipped up. It will happen. They're a young inexperienced team with key players whose form fluctuates wildly, playing a crazy fixture schedule.

But their current position, 2nd in the league, after the start they had, is fantastic.
 

Bastian

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Not going to make a new thread on him and this is wildly off topic, but he has been absolutely spot on over the last couple of weeks.
 

Bastian

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Assuming you mean his comments on the protest/Glazers/United, there's posts about him in the protest threads.
Yeah, I mean those. Just wanted to praise the bastard and found it a little bit funny to do so in this thread. Would have opted for the spitting thread, but it's not open to further replies..
 

VidaRed

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If we hadn't fecked around we'd have won the league. Even the previous leeds game we pissed away points and who can forget sheffield, west brom, palace and everton ? Its actually scandalous how we've pissed away the title.
 
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If we hadn't fecked around we'd have won the league. Even the previous leeds game we pissed away points and who can forget sheffield, west brom, palace and everton ? Its actually scandalous how we've pissed away the title.
seeing as you are posting the same thing in multiple threads - I’ll give you my same reply:


rubbish.

every club can look at half a dozen results every season as games that they should have won. Man City will be exactly the same.

we were never in a title race this season. We have progressed, and are a far better team than last year.

absolute BS to say we have “pissed away the title” it’s laughable.
:lol:
 

VidaRed

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seeing as you are posting the same thing in multiple threads - I’ll give you my same reply:


rubbish.

every club can look at half a dozen results every season as games that they should have won. Man City will be exactly the same.

we were never in a title race this season. We have progressed, and are a far better team than last year.

absolute BS to say we have “pissed away the title” it’s laughable.
:lol:
Seeing as you are posting the same reply in multiple threads - I’ll give you my same reply:

Ive left out other games where we've dropped points because i know we cant win every game. However, Ive only mentioned the ones where we would have won if we bothered to turn up. We didn't drop points in these days because we were outclassed but because we couldn't be arsed to turn the heat up against sides fighting relegation.

It is a bottle job, make no mistake.
 

Rozay

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In hindsight, it would have been very difficult for us to have won the league this season given that City had to win about 13 in a row to pull away.

That said, I agreed with Carra at the time, and I stand by that. We seemed to be trying to run away from the responsibility of fighting for the title. Before we got to the top, we were giving it far bigger talk, and then when we got there, we tried to avoid the conversation altogether. I said in January that the only way I could see this team winning the league this season is if they won it on the last day. They seem far more comfortable chasing than showing authority and leading. Hopefully next season we go out front-footed from August. I have full faith in Ole though, and back him to bring it home next year.
 

Shark

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If we hadn't fecked around we'd have won the league. Even the previous leeds game we pissed away points and who can forget sheffield, west brom, palace and everton ? Its actually scandalous how we've pissed away the title.
What happens if we do the same next season , how long does it continue before we say we must challenge. We've been in rebuild since SAF stepped down nearly a decade ago.
 

He'sRaldo

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In hindsight, it would have been very difficult for us to have won the league this season given that City had to win about 13 in a row to pull away.

That said, I agreed with Carra at the time, and I stand by that. We seemed to be trying to run away from the responsibility of fighting for the title. Before we got to the top, we were giving it far bigger talk, and then when we got there, we tried to avoid the conversation altogether. I said in January that the only way I could see this team winning the league this season is if they won it on the last day. They seem far more comfortable chasing than showing authority and leading. Hopefully next season we go out front-footed from August. I have full faith in Ole though, and back him to bring it home next year.
Everyone seems very comfortable in 2nd place, bar a few like Pogba and Fernandes.
 
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If we hadn't fecked around we'd have won the league. Even the previous leeds game we pissed away points and who can forget sheffield, west brom, palace and everton ? Its actually scandalous how we've pissed away the title.
Pissed away?

Sheffield UNITED.. ref have them a terrible goal and whistles before we scored when should have let it go.

West Brom, the guy wrestled Lindelof and neither the ref or VAR batted an eyelid.

Every team gets poor decisions and we didn't play particularly well in either game but with the right decisions (clear and obvious .. ironically), we win both.

(You've actually cut and pasted the exact same words in three threads? At least change the odd word for variety)
 

justsomebloke

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What happens if we do the same next season , how long does it continue before we say we must challenge. We've been in rebuild since SAF stepped down nearly a decade ago.
That's nonsense. Moyes was sent out to win basically with the same squad that had won it for SAF the year before. LvG was sent on a spending spree to basically restore normality and bring United back to where we all still took it for granted that they should be. There was no sense of a rebuild at the time. Mourinho was all about immediate results.

Given that Moyes inherited a squad that was virtually on the edge of retirement after years of neglected investment, we should have started a rebuild in 2013. Or failing that, in 2014. Or failing that, in 2016. But we didn't. Because there wasn't the patience, reality was drowned out by the massive sense of entitlement which made it impossible for fans and management alike to contemplate that a return to greatness should take place any later than yesterday. This club embarked on a conscious rebuild - as in "it will take time before we are a top club again" - in the summer of 2020, for the first time in decades. And as this thread shows, people still have a hard time getting their heads around that concept.

If it takes another season before we're good enough to compete for titles, then it takes another season.
 

charlenefan

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If we hadn't fecked around we'd have won the league. Even the previous leeds game we pissed away points and who can forget sheffield, west brom, palace and everton ? Its actually scandalous how we've pissed away the title.
someone likes the sound of their own voice eh, copying and pasting the same sentence in 3 different threads begging to be heard:rolleyes:
 

Zlatattack

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If we win our next 2 matches the gap is 7 points. Its much better than any time since SAF left.

If we can get some more quality into the team next season we can challenge if we can be consistent. We drew 10 games this season. There were a lot of shit performances.
 

Rozay

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Everyone seems very comfortable in 2nd place, bar a few like Pogba and Fernandes.
It was rather disappointing at the time. Second seemed a perfect hiding place where you get to say ‘we’re not doing badly, we’re second’ but without the pressure of being expected to win.

If we finish second this season, Ole will have nowhere to hide. We finished third in his first season, and by my count, there are only two places above third, yet he seemed to ‘want to improve’ without committing to wanting to be first. Well now he’s finished second, he either comes out and says he hopes to repeat his second place finish, or he again looks up, which only leaves first place this time. That has to be the target from the start. There is no hiding place above second to aspire to. Especially if we finish within 10 points. Unless the aim is to again ‘close the gap’, maybe to 3 or 4 points this time!
 

SirScholes

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I think every needs to remember the schedule teams have had to face
And the only team not affected is city and they have 2 squads essentially of high quality

every other team has had to deal with injuries or rotation or burn out
So we’ve done great to be second and had a good season, it’s got nothing to do with other teams not turning up this season.
 

sullydnl

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The issue this season wasn't that we bottled it, or that we got bad decisions against us.

We just weren't as good as City. We repeatedly handed our opponents goals that City (once they actually clicked into gear) never looked like doling out on a regular basis. The goals columns tell a story in this regard. They've scored more than us while also conceding about 75% as much we have.

The games we lost largely weren't ones we suddenly bottled but rather games where we didn't recover from the sort of mistakes we did manage to recover from in other games. But those flaws and mistakes were present for large swathes of the season, not just when we were supposedly challenging.

But that's fine. It's still progress. Next season will be a big test for Solskjaer as it'll be a lot harder to overtake City than it will be to fall behind but for now, we're alright.
 

justsomebloke

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It was rather disappointing at the time. Second seemed a perfect hiding place where you get to say ‘we’re not doing badly, we’re second’ but without the pressure of being expected to win.

If we finish second this season, Ole will have nowhere to hide. We finished third in his first season, and by my count, there are only two places above third, yet he seemed to ‘want to improve’ without committing to wanting to be first. Well now he’s finished second, he either comes out and says he hopes to repeat his second place finish, or he again looks up, which only leaves first place this time. That has to be the target from the start. There is no hiding place above second to aspire to. Especially if we finish within 10 points. Unless the aim is to again ‘close the gap’, maybe to 3 or 4 points this time!
You guys seem to inhabit some weird hegelian alternative reality where football games are basically acts of will, and titles are won by managers who make up their minds to do so while other managers fiendishly deprive their teams of titles by means of devious wording.

None of what you write above means anything. Literally.
 
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You guys seem to inhabit some weird hegelian alternative reality where football games are basically acts of will, and titles are won by managers who make up their minds to do so while other managers fiendishly deprive their teams of titles by means of devious wording.

None of what you write above means anything. Literally.
Its why I put him on ignore!
 

Tom Cato

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You guys seem to inhabit some weird hegelian alternative reality where football games are basically acts of will, and titles are won by managers who make up their minds to do so while other managers fiendishly deprive their teams of titles by means of devious wording.

None of what you write above means anything. Literally.
Don't tell him there's a group of 11 players on the opposing team that can influence the events of the games we play as well.

The fact that we don't win 38 games every season is absolutely beacuse the 1) Coaches are clueless B) Manager is clueless XY) Team selection is wrong #) Subs are too late 3,14) Didn't play Donny at the appropriate angle and fahrenheit. B5) Got no system
 
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Tom Cato

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If we hadn't fecked around we'd have won the league. Even the previous leeds game we pissed away points and who can forget sheffield, west brom, palace and everton ? Its actually scandalous how we've pissed away the title.
If we hadn't lost 4 games we'd have won the league.

Its a goddamn scandal!
 

Rozay

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You guys seem to inhabit some weird hegelian alternative reality where football games are basically acts of will, and titles are won by managers who make up their minds to do so while other managers fiendishly deprive their teams of titles by means of devious wording.

None of what you write above means anything. Literally.
Okay.
 

Rozay

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Its why I put him on ignore!
No it isn’t. I’ll remind you, you put me on ignore when I had the nerve to suggest that football could resume behind closed doors last season. Which is exactly what happened. Anyway, not that I could give two fecks anyway, who comes here to chat with you?
 

Bilbo

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Never ceases to amaze me the lengths that people will go to, to find reasons to sh*t on the club. They actually want to do it
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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Our form since the 19th matchday is 7 wins, 7 draws and 1 loss. Way too many draws.

We definitely didn't fancy the title this season for whatever reason and I think we missed a boat not challenging.

Hopefully we do next season.
 

justsomebloke

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Our form since the 19th matchday is 7 wins, 7 draws and 1 loss. Way too many draws.

We definitely didn't fancy the title this season for whatever reason and I think we missed a boat not challenging.

Hopefully we do next season.
Seriously. You think this is because we "didn't fancy the title"? You don't think the manager and the players would have liked to win the Premier League, or have tried their best to win as many games as possible? And that we will if only they get around to wanting it?
 

Paul_Scholes18

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Our form since the 19th matchday is 7 wins, 7 draws and 1 loss. Way too many draws.

We definitely didn't fancy the title this season for whatever reason and I think we missed a boat not challenging.

Hopefully we do next season.
Yeah I feel we take too few risks in games we draw and get 0-0.

If going for the title you need to dare to fail and not be happy with draws.
 

phenry

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In hindsight we should have gone for the win against City. That one point we could have lost wouldn't have really mattered
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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Seriously. You think this is because we "didn't fancy the title"? You don't think the manager and the players would have liked to win the Premier League, or have tried their best to win as many games as possible? And that we will if only they get around to wanting it?
We didn't push for the win enough in certain games. Our away performance at the Emirates is just one example.

We should have went for the win at Anfield too, but we went into that game giving them far too much respect.