“We need better players....”

Quizierda

Full Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2014
Messages
854
Don't think that's entirely fair. Jose would have recognised Messi's unearthly ability, just wouldn't have known how to maximise it. Would love to see him trying to convince Messi to defend though :D
Just imagine what a nice mediocre wing back - coming off the bench from time to time - Mou would have formed out of him.. :houllier:
 

wolvored

Full Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2016
Messages
9,932
We need a plan and vision for the team. Wingplay and fullbacks are awful compaired to other top clubs, same could be said for the centrebacks. We are very far from the
Neville-Rio-Vidic-Evra days when we had one of the best defences in world football. Same could be said about midfield and attack. Lukaku and De Gea are the only players that would have been part of the strong teams we had in the past. Bring in a young modern manager as Nagelsman, keep Carrick and McKenna and start a proper rebuild. Give Chong,Garner,Gomes and more youngsters a chance. They would give a effort and surely not do worse than some of the players we have playing today.
Lukaku wouldnt have got into the strong teams of the past.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,640
Changes needed to fix this club(sorted relevant to importance):
  1. Hire a Director of Football: Change in the governance of the club. Woodward/board should not be involved in football related decisions other than giving the limit to the DoF and manager for how much can be spent on transfer and wages each season. Football decisions should be made by people with competence and experience within the field, not an accountant/owners with zero footballing experience.
  2. DoF(with certain persons in the club that is not outdated/class of 92) benchmarks how the best clubs play their football, train and other aspects. Create longterm strategy for how to play, squad building and infrastructural improvements of training facilities.
  3. Hire a manager(and the coaches that he would like to bring) that is capable of playing "modern" football and has shown evidence of being able to improve players under his tutelage.
  4. Manager and DoF uses the rest of the season to determine which players that have a future at the club, and which players that does not.
  5. 2019: Winter and summer window used to make the required changes needed in the squad.

Example:
  1. Pay Roma £X millions to let Monchi come to us. Woodward solely focus on the financial aspect of this club, and only sets a limit to how much we can spend.
  2. Monchi does step 2 from above.
  3. Hires Eusebio di Francesco or another manager that has shown abilities for improving players and playing football that is not outdated.
  4. Monchi and Francesco does step 4 from above.
  5. Sell/release x number of players (example: players that might be judge not needed: Mata, Darmian, McTominay, Mata, Darmian, Herrera, Jones, Mata, Darmian, Rojo, Mata, Darmian). And Monchi gets the players we need.
It was all good until point 3.

We need a world class manager who can handle the likes of Pogba, Sanchez, and prima donnas like Martial.
 

Slevs

likes to play with penises
Joined
Apr 5, 2010
Messages
28,408
Location
Boyo
It was the correct decision. It's just that you were painting it as if poor little Mourinho was forced to settle for one of the best players in the league instead of Ivan fecking Perisic who has seemingly reached absolutely astounding heights of ability on the Caf in the last year or so. It's like when we were pining for Hargreaves back then, with each game he missed through injury his legend got greater.
Ivan fecking Perisic is better than Martial/Rashford/Mata/Sanchez/Lingard as a pure winger. I don't care if he's not prime Robben or Ribery, he's better than all of our current "wingers" on the actual wings.
 

Alabaster Codify7

New Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2015
Messages
6,553
Location
Wales
We have few players who'd start for City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs. That much is a fact.

However, we also have a good enough 11 to beat every single non-top 4/6 team handily.
 

Fosu-Mens

Full Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
4,101
Location
Fred | 2019/20 Performances
It was all good until point 3.

We need a world class manager who can handle the likes of Pogba, Sanchez, and prima donnas like Martial.
Definition of world class is somewhat subjective. World class managers can change over time. Mourinho was called "world class" before the last Chelsea meltdown, but at present time seems closer to outdated than world class.
Also i don't think that we necassarily must have a proven winner or a "world class" manager in the likes of Zidane, Ancelotti etc for handling Pogba, Sanchez or Martial.
 

wolvored

Full Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2016
Messages
9,932
I'd say De Gea, Pogba, and Sanchez would have a look in. De Gea vs VDS, Pogba vs Scholes, prime Sanchez vs prime Rooney would have been some competition.
Yes agree with that. De Gea and prime sanchez easily. Fergie tried to get him when he went to Barca. Pogba if Fergie could have kept him focussed as well. He does at the moment have inconsistancy though, but with better players around him would probably be ok.
 

forevrared

Full Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2009
Messages
5,375
Location
Bay Area
There was £290,000,000 worth of Mourinho’s signings down the spine of the team today. We’ve got loads of good players. The problem is the manager.
 

Neo_Mufc

Full Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2009
Messages
10,162
It's not happening get used to the squad we have until the end of the season.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,640
Definition of world class is somewhat subjective. World class managers can change over time. Mourinho was called "world class" before the last Chelsea meltdown, but at present time seems closer to outdated than world class.
Also i don't think that we necassarily must have a proven winner or a "world class" manager in the likes of Zidane, Ancelotti etc for handling Pogba, Sanchez or Martial.
We kinda do. Just look at Pogba's recent antics.

What credentials would a young and unproven manager have to put against the clubs biggest signing?

When things go sour would the club back that unproven manager if he loses the dressing room? I highly doubt.
 

marktan

Full Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2017
Messages
6,930
Sorry - but so did Moyes and LvG - if Mourinho after 2 years cant get his players to perform how he wants - how shitty of a manager must he be ?
So did Moyes and LVG what?

And the football isn't great but we're playing better and finishing a lot higher than under Moyes and LVG at least.
 

CA1

New Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Messages
1,894
How managers are we going to go through before the truth gets through?

How many players in and out before the truth gets through?

Time to get these owners and chief executive out of our club. ASAP. Not next season, not after Christmas, not next week. Now.
 

Fer

Full Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2014
Messages
2,787
Most of the posters wanted Alderweireld, Meunier, Sandro, Savic and Mahrez/Bale.

It's sad to continue watching the same fullbacks, no experienced CB and lack of creativity to attack.

IMO we need to change the system, we need a formation to get the best of our players and a better way to play.
 

anant

Correctly predicted Italy to win Euro 2020
Joined
Feb 28, 2015
Messages
8,259
How managers are we going to go through before the truth gets through?

How many players in and out before the truth gets through?

Time to get these owners and chief executive out of our club. ASAP. Not next season, not after Christmas, not next week. Now.
Yeah,it's because of Glazers and Woodward that we cannot beat Brighton away two years in a row
 

redIndianDevil

Full Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2017
Messages
3,634
Of course it is.

We could have Messi in the team and he would half his output with this coaching/strategy.
You think Messi would score 20 goals in our setup? Hed be lucky to score 5 goals. Our football is not suited for creative players at all, only headless chickens and tall lampposts will thrive under current Mourinho
 

forevrared

Full Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2009
Messages
5,375
Location
Bay Area
How managers are we going to go through before the truth gets through?

How many players in and out before the truth gets through?

Time to get these owners and chief executive out of our club. ASAP. Not next season, not after Christmas, not next week. Now.
And how exactly do you propose that happens? Are the fans going to raise literally billions of dollars to buy the club off the Glazers?

I'm anything but a Glazer apologist, but seriously, what's the point of even writing something like this?
 

Kag

Full Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Messages
18,875
Location
United Kingdom
We have few players who'd start for City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs. That much is a fact.

However, we also have a good enough 11 to beat every single non-top 4/6 team handily.
It's not a fact. It's complete and utter bollocks, that's what it is.

Take Liverpool. Would replacing Bailly, Shaw, Pogba and Fred with Gomez, Roberston, Milner and Wijnaldum changed the complexion of our football today?

Nah.
 

KW2006

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 5, 2018
Messages
314
I wonder, if we don't have a manager, and just let the 11 players started today to play and organize themselves(just like us amateurs in sunday football), will it be better...? I am really not sure at the moment...
 

gibers

Full Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2017
Messages
1,065
Location
UK
It's not a fact. It's complete and utter bollocks, that's what it is.

Take Liverpool. Would replacing Bailly, Shaw, Pogba and Fred with Gomez, Roberston, Milner and Wijnaldum changed the complexion of our football today?

Nah.
Exactly. The problem here is our coach is a dinosaur. Give him Citys squad and he would get rid of probably half of that team. People keep banging on about David Silva, do you think Mou would ever play Kdb and Silva in the centre? He would have flogged off most of that team.

We just hit and hope. He will be gone by the end of the season.
 

Fosu-Mens

Full Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
4,101
Location
Fred | 2019/20 Performances
We kinda do. Just look at Pogba's recent antics.

What credentials would a young and unproven manager have to put against the clubs biggest signing?

When things go sour would the club back that unproven manager if he loses the dressing room? I highly doubt.
I agree that an unproven manager(like the appointment of G. Neville at Valencia) would not work. But there is a huge gap between unproven and world class, and there are many managers that is proven or close to world class that would fit the criterias of playing attractive football and able to improve players.
 

CA1

New Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Messages
1,894
And how exactly do you propose that happens? Are the fans going to raise literally billions of dollars to buy the club off the Glazers?

I'm anything but a Glazer apologist, but seriously, what's the point of even writing something like this?
It won't change until the owners leave so you better get your thinking caps on if you want to see Manchester United back at the top of the English and European game.

I've seen United win it all to be honest and tried my best in 2005 to help the fight against the owners but it wasn't enough for a number of reasons. I'm too tired for it.

But believe me, we're in big trouble if they stay. We'll go round and round with blaming managers and players. It's a pointless exercise while the Glazers and they clowns they employ (Woodward) run the show at this wonderful club.

I'd like to remind you that fans CAN make a difference and accepting it is the first part of them getting away with it.
 

RedorDead21

Full Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2013
Messages
9,216
I’m a Jose fan boy but this club isn’t right for him. I don’t think it would be right for a young SAF either. We’ve built a fan base and a club that was seemingly primed for Pep and since then we’ve really been clueless in our approach. If you choose Jose you go full Jose and accept what he is. If you didn’t want that go with someone like Pooch and try and build something long lasting. We will hire ZZ and then someone else and then someone’s else all with different philosophies and all with different agendas on how long they plan to stick around.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,640
I agree that an unproven manager(like the appointment of G. Neville at Valencia) would not work. But there is a huge gap between unproven and world class, and there are many managers that is proven or close to world class that would fit the criterias of playing attractive football and able to improve players.
I don't get all the constant obsession with the attractive football crap. We ain't Arsenal or Spurs. We need winners and we need to win trophies.
 

Janson

Full Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2016
Messages
6,028
Location
Sweden
I'm pretty sure most of them can do that. They are just unable to do it properly, under the guidance, coaching and preparation set by Jose Mourinho.
He needs to teach them how to make a pass? I thought pro footballers should know how to do that.
 

Fer

Full Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2014
Messages
2,787
I thought we could have this team in 2 transfer windows.

De Gea
Meunier - Bailly - Alderweireld - Sandro
Matic
Savic - Pogba
Bale - Lukaku - Sanchez
Unfortunately, we haven't addressed these problems. We need to improve our defense and attack, so we need new 3 players next season and to get the best of our current players.
 

Pogue Mahone

The caf's Camus.
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
133,776
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
Ed Woodward was responsible for the scouting and final decision maker with regard to the signing of Bailly? Not the manager at the time?

Get a grip.
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were living in a cave when the story broke about Ed vetoing another CB signing because the shower on our books already are “good enough”. If so, google is your friend.

It’s definitely possible Bailly might go on to become a quality CB. He sure as shit isn’t one right now.
 

redIndianDevil

Full Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2017
Messages
3,634
I don't get all the constant obsession with the attractive football crap. We ain't Arsenal or Spurs. We need winners and we need to win trophies.
You do realise that it's not either Attacking football or trophies right? You can win tropphies by playing attacking football, it's not a novel idea, all the clubs everywhere have been doing it for decades.
 

Raw

Full Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2013
Messages
25,421
Location
Manchester, UK
I don't get all the constant obsession with the attractive football crap. We ain't Arsenal or Spurs. We need winners and we need to win trophies.
It's mainly because so far, playing attractive football and having a good amount of investment generally leads to success. Arsenal and Spurs aren't putting hundreds of millions into their squads. Liverpool might be winning nothing but they look to have a better chance of winning something than us right now.
 

AllezLesDiables

Full Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2012
Messages
1,805
As opposed to the countervailing 'we need worse players' argument:rolleyes:
It’s not so much worse players as it is players who aren’t known as superstars but can be counted on to put a shift in and come up with brilliance every once in a while.

Frankly United would be better off without Pogba and having Pjanic/Witsel or some other combination. Sure Pogba can do some amazing things but he’s never going to be confused for someone that going to leave blood sweat and tears on the pitch week in and week out.

Great teams have both the grinders and the stars, can’t win consistently without both.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,640
You do realise that it's not either Attacking football or trophies right? You can win tropphies by playing attacking football, it's not a novel idea, all the clubs everywhere have been doing it for decades.
You do realize if you want to win trophies playing attacking football you need to have squad as good as Barca or Real or spend even more boatload of $ to get the right players in like City.

How are we supposed to play attractive football from the back when your own board goes against the idea of signing a ball playing CB?
 

Treble

Full Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
10,550
United have enough quality players to easily outplay Brighton. It's not about the players when they look like a random collection of individuals.
 

RedorDead21

Full Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2013
Messages
9,216
If Bailly and Lindelof were Jose’s first choice my name is Benny Hill. They smell of looking for value. Strangely VVD looks more Jose than all of them.

He still seemed to prefer the existing players after their arrival.
 

AndyJ1985

New Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
8,954
You do realize if you want to win trophies playing attacking football you need to have squad as good as Barca or Real or spend even more boatload of $ to get the right players in like City.

How are we supposed to play attractive football from the back when your own board goes against the idea of signing a ball playing CB?
That's bollocks. Every trophy we won with Ferguson was won by playing attacking football.

Aren't Bailly and Lindelof supposed to be ball playing defenders? Two defenders that the board bought for Mourinho. Enough of the excuses.
 

Kag

Full Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Messages
18,875
Location
United Kingdom
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were living in a cave when the story broke about Ed vetoing another CB signing because the shower on our books already are “good enough”. If so, google is your friend.
You were referring to Bailly, who Mourinho (presumably based on information given to him by the scouting staff who you clearly outweigh) decided to rate enough to want at the club.

We vetoed specific central defenders (Boateng, Mina) because they would have been hideous deals which many plonkers would only criticise a year after loving the fact we signed them. Director of Footbal, or something...

The shower on our books have been up there with the best defences in England for four full seasons. What lacks is the goalscoring. Which imbecile 1 and 2 have been/will be held accountable for over the course of those four seasons. Van Gaal got the boot because of it and so will Mourinho.

Two shots on target against Brighton with hundreds of millions of pounds on the pitch. It's an abomination.
 

Fosu-Mens

Full Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
4,101
Location
Fred | 2019/20 Performances
I don't get all the constant obsession with the attractive football crap. We ain't Arsenal or Spurs. We need winners and we need to win trophies.
Not saying that we need to play attacking football no matter what. The point is that playing football where the idea is to score one more goal than the opposition rather than what we are doing today which is to concede one less goal than the opposition, can be an indicator for success.

Some years ago it was easier to defend and counter/rely on mistakes from the opposition to score/get chances. So playing football that relied on being better to defend than the other team was good at attacking was likely to give you success. As football has evolved over the years with more technical and better attacking players, and most teams in the EPL are better tactically/less naive at attacking then they were before, defend to win is less likely to yield success compared to attack to win.

Also: attack to win mentality is more entertaining compared to a defend to win mentality.