Yes because it’s superfluous when we already have the Amorim thread for people to moan in.
But you didn’t actually address my point.
1 win in 17 against non-relegated teams.
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
Yes because it’s superfluous when we already have the Amorim thread for people to moan in.
But you didn’t actually address my point.
It’s been dreadful but the club showed in January that the short term wasn’t the priority. A struggling team loaning out players and not replacing them was confirmation that the focus wasn’t really on this season.
Bringing Amorim in midseason was to give him a head start for next season. It’s conceivable we will be significantly better with a few good signings and some of the younger players improving. It’s also conceivable we’ll stay in the bottom half and he’s gone very quickly next season.
Bringing Amorim in midseason was to give him a head start for next season. It’s conceivable we will be significantly better with a few good signings and some of the younger players improving. It’s also conceivable we’ll stay in the bottom half and he’s gone very quickly next season.
We were 3 points behind Villa and Newcastle when Amorim took over. A 2 point per game average would have seen us comfortably into the top 4. Sure, not easy but it basically required our new top quality manager to do as well as ETH had done across an entire season in 22/23.
I made this thread, and it isn't strictly an Amorim thread - though it's telling that you believe it's an Amorim moaning thread. The OP mentions players, summer, and the actual run of form itself as much as it mentions Amorim. I felt the run is so noteworthy that I couldn't quite believe it's not being discussed broadly, and if the mods believe it belongs elsewhere, they will merge it.
Thats a fair and balanced post, and a good point about loaning out some depth and not replacing it. Let's all hope that these months have been a real introduction to understanding the league and knowing exactly what he wants come summer.
Right, but there was a reason ETH was sacked -- we were playing poorly week after week. I seriously doubt there is a single United supporter here who believes that we have a top 4 squad but that we're only being held back by tactics.
In fact, or at least it's a widely held opinion, we have a poor squad. Very quickly, pretty much the entire planet except Onana's immediately family members agrees that Onana is not good enough for the job of United keeper. Defensively we're not that bad, but we're not that great either. We lost Martinez, who is probably our best defender. Yoro and Heaven are fantastic prospects but nowhere near the polished gem. We all like De Ligt and Maguire but neither were outstanding under ETH nor have they been outstanding under Ruben.
Our wingbacks are a problem.
Apart from Bruno, who has been outstanding this season, our central midfielders don't stand up well to the top clubs in the PL. Although it must be said that Casemiro has rallied of late. Mainoo is suffering the clockwork sophomore slump...and he's been injured. Mount...not top class.
Our forwards is where we're particularly dire. Hojlund and Zirkzee get nowhere near the starting XI for any other PL club. Garnacho has flashes of brilliance but he's not where he should be in his development by now. We all love Amad but he's been out with injury for a long spell. And of course Rashford, Sancho and Antony literally had to shipped off to other clubs...their degradation having begun long before Ruben arrived. Ruben has no goal scorers.
All that said, it's very much an open question whether Ruben's tactics have any chance of working in the PL. I have my doubts. But what I have no doubt about is that the squad was completely broken at the point in time ETH was sacked.
Really I had little expectations for this season around when ETH was sacked it was dismal. Then we bring in guy who was expected to join better prospects than us, who asked not to start until summer…yet came when we said no, and in first press conference told how he expected really what has since happen.
Since he came we’ve let Rashford, Antony leave from an attacking unit that was not working and replace neither. Had injuries to Martinez, Yorro, Heaven, Dalot, Deligt, Amad, Zirkzee, Mount and probably others.
Then there is context. This thread was made about twenty minutes after a loss in league game that has little meaning for us, where we played our kids because of game we have on Thursday that has lots of meaning…moaning about run of game that exists in the context of everything I have written and in all honesty…given since end Feb/March the situation hasn’t changed…the league is merely training at this point because we have to prioritise Europa.
Why wasn’t this thread created on Thursday?
I haven’t even started really judging this manager yet…except to note the better team shape and fact that players are getting used to system.
I will START to judge him from next season.
Hopefully something comes of this mess, I think we went for a manager who didn’t suit the squad because the squad aren’t good enough. You don’t bring someone in to suit players you don’t want.
Short term it’s failed but the benefit is supposed to be next season. That benefit may never arrive of course but we are going to find out next season,
Yes because we were a well coached team under Ole, ETH or that Ragnick (and ETH to be honest) didnt just give up after a few months trying to coach these players into a team shape.
Well done on picking one game….can you point to a few months where we could actually see things looking better in terms of tactic, shape, pattern etc?
Relegation form. Astonishingly bad.
This a bit confusing. Don't you think that poor coaching is the reason why we looked poorly coached? Also there were patterns, tactics and noticeable shapes, the issue is that they were fundamentally flawed.
Respectfully, if you're pretending that we weren't structured and sound when finishing 2nd in the PL under Solskjaer and 3rd under Ten hag then there's no point discussing it. At the risk of wasting my time though: Solskjaer had a very clear structure that went awry when he tried to play more front foot football. He's gone to Besiktas now and implemented his very clear style quite quickly, and it was no surprise he beat Guardiola as well as he did. He couldn't take it to that next level, but he absolutely had a well drilled style. I cant explain why Ten Hags midfield fell apart in his second season - it was tough to watch, but by and large other than against the top sides, we looked like we could get a result in most games - I think we had maybe 4 terrible showings against non top sides that season with Palace demolishing us, Bournemouth brushing us aside at home etc.
You're too hyperbolic for my taste, you've said that a thread about 16 game run is a 'kneejerk' to 1 match at the weekend, and now youve dismissed three entire seasons where we actually looked quite well coached (2 of solskjaers and 1 of ten hags). You even announced that anybody critical of this really worrying run of results but also performances 'doesn't deserve' to see us win the Europa (Which may or may not happen)
I'm not going to reply any more if that's all good, I've plenty of posts here that show where I stand on this - pro amorim, hope he turns it around, deeply concerned by a simply shocking run of results.
Nice that we give a manager this much leeway, the only real excuse are the injuries, coming in pre Christmas isn’t an excuse for not being able to get us playing half decent football so far.
Personally think you’re being very generous with these points. We still look like we’ve never trained this system to me and if we’re using league games as training practice everyone is failing, manager, coaches and players, cause we are rubbish.
I know some use the EL run as a yard stick of his success but if they’re being honest we’ve been very fortunate in that as well.
By the way this is coming from someone who likes him and wants him to stay and be successful but I can still see he’s been very disappointing so far.
We're going to have to hit the ground running next season.
Winning the EL would give him a bit more time of course but if we start next season badly then Amorim will be in serious trouble. A bad start and he won't even last as long as ETH did this season.
Winning the EL would give him a bit more time of course but if we start next season badly then Amorim will be in serious trouble. A bad start and he won't even last as long as ETH did this season.
That’s fair
I think it’s a shame he is a one trick pony, it’s a worry definitely because football styles and involve, I hope he can learn and he grows in experience as a manager
The reality is we don’t have much to go on with Amorin other than faith. The results have been shite and the performances not much better, so there’s been very little you can hang you hat on and say “yep Amorin has made his mark on the team here”. He is however a top man, a leader and somebody who you can follow based on his short time here. He’s also a manager that has proven he can navigate a difficult job before (all be it at a lower level).
As a result of the above, my opinion has flip flopped. I think it’s undeniable at this stage another manager (even ETH) would have managed significantly better premier league results this season and had us finishing higher up the table. However, we have tried that method. Short term pragmatism, over long term results and look at the mess it’s created. Because of that i’m choosing to give the man faith. Based on results, performances, statistics that faith is completely unfounded, but a part of me just thinks he could still be the right man for the job. Now I’m not going to criticise anyone that has had their faith in the club and the various managers eroded in the past 10 years. I completely get and understand the criticism, hell I’ve said the same things.
I would like to think though, that if we can win the Europe, he should get some grace from all fans. We all need to be pulling in the same direction.
As a result of the above, my opinion has flip flopped. I think it’s undeniable at this stage another manager (even ETH) would have managed significantly better premier league results this season and had us finishing higher up the table. However, we have tried that method. Short term pragmatism, over long term results and look at the mess it’s created. Because of that i’m choosing to give the man faith. Based on results, performances, statistics that faith is completely unfounded, but a part of me just thinks he could still be the right man for the job. Now I’m not going to criticise anyone that has had their faith in the club and the various managers eroded in the past 10 years. I completely get and understand the criticism, hell I’ve said the same things.
I would like to think though, that if we can win the Europe, he should get some grace from all fans. We all need to be pulling in the same direction.
I’m not pretending…we weren’t. It’s hardly radical stuff or hot take. We had better players under Ole. Looking back now a much better side, but we were not good team, well coached team. We were moments FC. Players individually winning games.
First season under Ten Hag till cup win I feel we were becoming team and could see cohesion…then it seemed to ditch from there. Under Ole I never felt we were anything, just 11 players most of time with the odd good performance when playing better teams.
I’m not bothered whether you reply or not. Thread wasn’t created Thursday. Was created twenty mins after a meaningless game. It’s reactionary to it, not in isolatIon but ignores context.
Nobody felt Ole was making us a good team, nobody thought ETH would turn it round in the end. Anybody judging Amorim on result since February is ignoring context.
We gave up on the league. Which is rather sad as there's actually a lot to play for. 2-3 wins is 10th position and it's not nothing even if it's financially peanuts.
It's about pride, and self esteem
And to prioritize EL to which I agree, doesnt mean you go birthday suit and forget everything else. We have a big squad, and at worst 2 games a week now which a club such as ours should have no problem juggling even if we prioritizes one over the other
Now what if... What if... amorim is not good enough. ETH wont the Eredivisie and he turned out to be not good enough. The only thing we hold on to was "he was good with Sporting once"
It's about pride, and self esteem
And to prioritize EL to which I agree, doesnt mean you go birthday suit and forget everything else. We have a big squad, and at worst 2 games a week now which a club such as ours should have no problem juggling even if we prioritizes one over the other
Now what if... What if... amorim is not good enough. ETH wont the Eredivisie and he turned out to be not good enough. The only thing we hold on to was "he was good with Sporting once"
Damn! You are making me reach my bottle of Zoloft. Stop it!
You don't know what straw man fallacy means.
But hey, good talk. We reached the CAF bingo within two posts. That's got to be some sort of record.
I think it’s completely justified that some fans can’t see a future with Amorim. In the Post-Ferguson era there wasn’t a single manager who turned around our fortunes and we also now have presumably the worst squad since.
I’m on the fence on Amorim but will admit it is deeply worrying that league results haven’t been forthcoming even on the odd occasion. We’ve seen glimpses but nothing consistent which makes me wonder if the players are unflinchingly convinced about Amorim’s system.
I also feel that Amorim’s days will be numbered next season if he doesn’t get the CL windfall needed for some better quality players.
I’m on the fence on Amorim but will admit it is deeply worrying that league results haven’t been forthcoming even on the odd occasion. We’ve seen glimpses but nothing consistent which makes me wonder if the players are unflinchingly convinced about Amorim’s system.
I also feel that Amorim’s days will be numbered next season if he doesn’t get the CL windfall needed for some better quality players.
That’s you posting a straw man fallacy on these very pages. No one has ever said a Manchester United manager needs to spend half a billion before being judged.
Were you too busy playing bingo to remember posting that nonsense?
Absolutely scandalous statistic. And one of the reasons why I don't think we'd beat Tottenham in the Europa League Final (assuming we don't f*k up against Bilbao), as we currently seem incapable of beating any PL club outside of Southampton/Leicester/Ipswich.
So far this season we've pretty much managed the opposite of expectations - we haven't won the games we were sure we should win, we haven't been thrashed by the teams we expected to thrash us (Newcastle aside) we've beaten teams no one thought we could possibly beat - and the general feeling seems to be that Tottemham will beat us easily - based on the CAF's track record I fancy our chances!
I had completely forgotten about Marinez.
The entire season hinges on "just one" match. This has been our worst season, without any doubt, in our entire existence in the Premier League. We need a new manager. And need it as soon as the Europa ends.
Who?
Who would this mystical manager or coach be and why would they join a club that sacks it's current one after a few months after he inherits a team that was shite and already going backwards?
We are doing so well in the Europa not because we are playing well or finding our form, but because the standard is so low.
This is evidenced by that fact that the teams 15th and 16th in the Premier league are the favourites to be the two finalists.
One of the commentators last week suggested that it is the physique of our team that is the problem in the PL, basically we are too small, and teams in Europe are smaller than the PL teams and that is why we compete.
I thought that was probably a reasonable comment so I looked up average PL squad heights. We're 9th Liverpool are 12th . So that's not the reason.
We are poor but the Europa is an even lower standard than we are.
So it's not height, so maybe it's talent or coaching and tactics or a bit of everything at the moment. Time will tell.
This is evidenced by that fact that the teams 15th and 16th in the Premier league are the favourites to be the two finalists.
One of the commentators last week suggested that it is the physique of our team that is the problem in the PL, basically we are too small, and teams in Europe are smaller than the PL teams and that is why we compete.
I thought that was probably a reasonable comment so I looked up average PL squad heights. We're 9th Liverpool are 12th . So that's not the reason.
We are poor but the Europa is an even lower standard than we are.
So it's not height, so maybe it's talent or coaching and tactics or a bit of everything at the moment. Time will tell.
For a 5 year contract to be fired in 9 months. Per hour it's a good job.
Barely seen anyone say this. If anything we are the overwhelming favourites considering it’s Spurs in a final.
It's not a straw man, that's been a prevailing narrative on this website and has been used to defend every post Fergie manager except Moyes. Folks want every manager to get a bucket load of cash to spend before they can be judged whereas my argument is that a manager has show his mettle before they can be trusted with money to spend. Amo's record so far with us doesn't justify that kind of trust. People want the manager to get "his team" before he can be judged, which is fecking daft. Half billion was an exaggeration but don't take everything so literally. Although, the last manager did spend more than that and failed, but there were fanboys who were still making a case for him.
I really hope you get it this time, because I am not going to explain it again.
Find me a single person who says Utd managers must spent half a billion before being judged. Until then, pipe down with your straw men lad.
Bye!
Typos > straw men.
to be honest, Im feeling really good and confident for next season then with all our previous managers - including when we appointed Mourinho. The last 6 months have uncovered all the issues with the club, player's attitude, player's limitation, bad recruitment etc. Solving them will take time but it is now clear what are the problems.
For reference: “A straw man fallacy involves misrepresenting someone else's argument, often by exaggerating, oversimplifying, or taking their words out of context, to make it easier to attack or refute.”
Maybe this will help you avoid them in the future, although seeing you twist yourself in knots over it has been entertaining at least.
Could it have possibly been the insistence on taking "half a billion" literally when it was already an admitted exaggeration, rather than your tenses, that soured this exchange?
Also this:
You can't just cry straw man because the word exaggeration is in a definition. I mean the definition is right there - it tells you that in what you've quoted. You'd have to have a head full of bricks to think that exaggerating for effect as a rhetorical device was the same as intentionally misrepresenting a point of view. And no, that wasn't a straw man.
He has 1 point per game in the league. That's absolutely horrendous and in-defensible regardless of how bad you think our squad is.
Maybe you missed how this started. Someone said “I tend to think every manager deserves a summer window and a full pre-season” with regards to Amorim, and Insanity replied with:
“When did this become a norm? Isn't giving a 6-8 months free pass not enough? Is it followed at other clubs or is this exclusive to Manchester United that a manager need to spend half a billion before he/she can be judged? I have never seen it at any other club in all my years of following football.”
No one is saying Amorim should get to spend half a billion before being judged. Indeed, the poster he was replying to specifically limited it one summer window and a pre season. So yes it was a straw man.