Exactly!
Anyway, for me there was no point continuing when a poster deliberately picks on a phrase or a sentence and then just want to harp on that. You know they want an argument, not a discussion.
1 win in 17 against non-relegated teams.
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
Anyway, for me there was no point continuing when a poster deliberately picks on a phrase or a sentence and then just want to harp on that. You know they want an argument, not a discussion.
That's a rhetorical question. You can answer questions. "No" would be both the appropriate answer and the one expected by the questioner. Remember those rhetorical devices we were on about earlier? They are different things entirely to formal fallacies. I don't currently have the time to go through all the different bits of language that there are, but I feel satisfied that any reasonable person following this exchange will be able to spot the difference between a rhetorical device and a logical fallacy. Although to be honest, before we had this exchange I felt confident that people could do that unassisted. I still do, in fact - I'm just leaving open the possibility that you might be after an honest discussion in good faith and just had a minor blind spot.
No one says that because no one ever really talks about managers needing to spend X or Y amount of money before they are judged. What people do say is that managers need to be allowed to 'build their team' before they are judged. That costs money.
The arrogance of your posts is surreal
once again speaking for everybody and once again deciding why a poster made a thread and wilfully ignoring that its about 16 matches stretching back to December, or our only home win under amorim vs non relegated sides being his opening home match, to support your wrong hypothesis.*whenThe arrogance of your posts is surreal
Also it’s not exactly radical to suggest it is considered we were a poorly coached team under Ole. It was very much general consensus.
You seem very touchy. I’ve reread my posts, I don’t think there’s as much of anything in them that is more than offering different opinion. People saying Amorim should be sacked won’t enjoy if we win EL. Which is good because if he had his way he wouldn’t be arriving till June.
Great response, this post should be pinned. Threads like this would've been more valid before the Wolves game when it became obvious we were throwing the kitchen sink at Europa.
Even with a squad full of injuries, zero quality upfront and inexperienced youth players, there are improved passages of pressing and build up clearly visible (albeit with huge ingame inconsistency).
Posters can say previous coaches had 'structure' but if we're being honest as a fan base we've always wanted more than just 'structure' and no manager has been able to take that next step. There was always going to be huge short term pain taking that step.
At this point anyone suggesting that it's players repeatedly trying to get managers fired is basically suggesting Shaw and Lindelof are the culprits.
You're hyperbolic in all of them - its one extreme every time be it solksjaer or ten hag and you're just refusing any ground to anybody who supports amorim but also is concerned about the results and the performances.
Even here your asterisk is so ridiculous, you literally said twice that the thread is 'knee jerk' indicating a response to the weekends 'meaningless' result in isolation ie why it was made. Now you're in semantics to just prolong arguing, a merry go round that could just keep going.
I would argue that maybe few clubs in the world have supporters that support amorim the way he is being supported while struggling to win a match. Make no mistake, he is struggling to win a match. Even on this forum, not always known for balance most posters are being very measured in this thread and beyond, whereas you seem to react to any little suggestion of not being happy in 15th or wherever we finish. It's bizarre
No, I’ve simply taken a broader brush approach to Amorim ie ‘well he did say it would be a lot of pain in short term’ and asked to start in June. Then added context that is missing from OP and from most replies on page 1. Then pointed to timing of this post which could have been made on Thursday….but was made 20 mins after game where we played a bunch of kids and returning players.
As for hyperbolic, firstly context of this thread is hyperbolic. But your emotive nature comes across in your responses to pretty routine replies.
‘One extreme every time, refusing to give up ground, so ridiculous, semantics, prolonged arguing, a merry go-round, any little suggestion of not being happy in 15th, bizarre’
I’m truly sorry if my post actually does come across as THAT irrational. I don’t think they do at all. In fact I think they are very measured. In fact there’s far more irrational postings from those who are clearly anti-Amorim. But you seem fine with them.
Also this. I kinda assume these days that any person who says that it's the same lot of players getting manager sacked, is a huge Mark Goldbridge fan.
Since when are we a club - or a fan group - who doesn't give a shit about the league? I do. It is still the basic measure of a club. A European title would be fantastic, and will also have a much bigger impact on our ability to improve in the PL than whether we finish 13th or 17th. But I don't see why that should mean we don't care what happens in the PL. That just shows a lack of standards.
West Ham players will be salivating at the chance to pass United and place them on 17th, I dont believe for a moment they will fold it in for this one
He doesn't though. It is just people looking at the situation as a whole. You can criticise him for sticking with his system, which I have also done, but I would also give it until next season once he's had a fair chance to assess it with the players he has/is able to sign.
I don't think there's any formation you could pick that would have this squad comfortably challenging for European places. I think that's mad. Maybe if everyone was fit for every game, but they haven't been, and we have no forwards who scored more than about once a month, and a goalkeeper who at any given moment will serve up a free goal to the opposition.
And then you're just ignoring all the other factors outside of injuries, such as the obvious issues in the squad (Rashford, Antony, Sancho, no fit left back/left wing back, etc.), Ratcliffe Stirling up turmoil and publicly slagging off our players, Ratcliffe trying to sell players who the manager is having to rely on to play and perform well, Ratcliffe sacking loads of people, the fact the league has blatantly not been a priority since basically January, etc.
Amorim has put all his eggs in the Europa League basket, which has obviously had at least some impact on league form. It may or may not pay off, but its hardly a gamble as he was never going to get top 4. It's a bit ridiculous to just ignore anything outside of league results when they have largely been irrelevant for a significant chunk of the season.
They're just coping. It's not like we've been bad in the league all this time because we were resting players for the EL or something. We tried our best in the league and the team and Amorim have done a piss poor job there.
Of course, now because we're so close to winning the EL, players are being rested and I can accept that excuse for the remaining games. But before that? No way.
We've not even found it particularly easy against the teams that have relegated as we're just physically not up to the standards of this league.
It's my main worry about playing another Premier League team in a European final.
It's my main worry about playing another Premier League team in a European final.
No, youve just decided that the timing of the thread is significant and it annoys you for some reason. Would it be better if it came after a 15 game run with 1 win, or after 12 games? Or if I waited another week until it was 17? Threads are made when they're made, and in this case it was after game 16. About the 16 games against non relegated sides where weve picked up one win. There was nothing kneejerk about a thread about a 5 month spell, you're just too stubborn to admit it and keep digging in.
I don't see huge amounts of strongly anti-amorim - but none of them had a go at me. And none said that anybody concerned about this form 'doesn't deserve' to enjoy the europa league. You're wrong on this one, but I suspect the best course here is to leave it and move on.
At the same time, if you had the option to just choose a non-relegated PL team as our EL final opponent, is there a more obvious choice at the moment than Spurs?
I'd take West Ham, Wolves or Everton. Maybe Brentford or Fulham too. As bad as Spurs have been, they beat us twice, and deserved it too. And they SHOULD be better than they are, which means they can be, in a single game.
Theyve beaten us 3 times this season despite how bad they are. Our record against them in last 2 years is terrible, which is sort of embarrasing since its Spurs.
We most definitely did not have better players under Ole. Why make this a discussion about how well coached we are under Amorim? Or actually, you're doing the opposite: making out a priori that we ARE well coached under Amorim, so we shouldn't even be discussing this. All backwards.
For my part I'm perfectly willing to give Amorim some confidence here, so long as I'm not being asked to pretend that what we're seeing in the PL is anything other than disastrously, embarassingly bad.
If we can't be confident against this injury ravaged Spurs team who are basically in the same form as us in the league, then we'll never be confident in any game ever.
I hear you, and still id sooner Bodo Glimt by a million miles. We seem to have just accepted that 'physicality' is something that we justifiably lose to (call me old fashioned but that's why i think losing every other week isn't a good thing. Its a habit) and they have strong, fast players who we didn't get near in 2 league games
The point of rhetorical questions isn’t the answer - it’s to make a point, and the insinuation here with that particular question in response to that very specific point about “a summer”, seemed more than clear. And it didn’t strike me as being in good faith.
‘The Wolves manager has done three times the job of Amorim in less time.
But we are a CF away from world domination with him apparently.
Sick of the club sticking with lost causes. Opposition fans are loving Amorim and not one supporter of any other club is hoping he’s sacked - he’s that bad.’
‘If we don’t win the EL, unfortunately he has done nothing to give us any hope that he’ll be better than Ole or Erik.’
‘Amorim should be sacked whether we win Europa or not.’
‘I’d say it is funny that we are about to repeat the same mistake as last season, retaining a horrendously performing manager due to a cup run’
Oh calm down. Nobody attacked you. Here are some posts that preceded mine. You might think my comment was based on more than just your OP
But we are a CF away from world domination with him apparently.
Sick of the club sticking with lost causes. Opposition fans are loving Amorim and not one supporter of any other club is hoping he’s sacked - he’s that bad.’
‘If we don’t win the EL, unfortunately he has done nothing to give us any hope that he’ll be better than Ole or Erik.’
‘Amorim should be sacked whether we win Europa or not.’
‘I’d say it is funny that we are about to repeat the same mistake as last season, retaining a horrendously performing manager due to a cup run’
Oh calm down. Nobody attacked you. Here are some posts that preceded mine. You might think my comment was based on more than just your OP
DDG
AWB
SHAW
MAGUIRE
lindelof
MATIC
POGBA
BRUNO
RASHFORD
MARTIAL
GREENWOOD
That’s a better (much) team than we have now.
No it isn't. Player for player it is, at best, a squad on more or less a similar level to what we have now, and personally I would conclude in the opposite direction. Particularly if you consider the whole squad, and not just the first XI. Also not sure why we'd use for the comparison a lineup that really only existed for brief periods late in the 19/20 season.
You're going at this backwards. You're already convinced that Ole's teams were badly coached and this team is well coached. Your problem is that the former did very well and the latter is doing outrageously bad. Which leaves you with squad quality to account for that huge anomaly. But that just doesn't stand up to even the most basic scrutiny - there is no way squad quality can account for the fact that Ole's team finished second while this team is about to finish somewhere between 14th and 17th.
For my part I don't think this is a straightforward reflection of the quality of the coaching though. It seems obvious the team is gravely underperforming, but that has been the case under two different managers this season and I don't think anyone has a clear cut and convincing explanation why. Presumably a combination of several factors.
This is surreal, it's like you're trolling. You quite literally moaned about the exact time the thread was made, and I never said anybody 'attacked' me, again with the hyperbole. Like a dog with a bone here, my god
My worry is we end up with these kind of athletic running players on the cheap, but not enough skill and creativity or experience. That's not going to work in the PL. I hope we have the money this year and definitely next, but they actually buy some top players. Quality over Quantity.
I hope they finally learn that you need 2 top level strikers to win games at this level and we buy an experienced prime age striker and keep Hojlund and let him develop. You can introduce youth and augment the squad the way Fergie did, but you can't have your whole front line made up of youngsters average age 20 odd and hope they grow into it!
We've too many 10's and 9.5's. We have no real experience up front and the squad is going to be massively light in real experience and talent in midfield, when Casemiro, Eriksen are gone and Mount is a permanent sick note.
Add to that the Bruno situation, if we get 150 million for a 31 year old he goes, that leaves another huge hole in the team that will be a priority to fill, so much work to do in reality.
I hope they finally learn that you need 2 top level strikers to win games at this level and we buy an experienced prime age striker and keep Hojlund and let him develop. You can introduce youth and augment the squad the way Fergie did, but you can't have your whole front line made up of youngsters average age 20 odd and hope they grow into it!
We've too many 10's and 9.5's. We have no real experience up front and the squad is going to be massively light in real experience and talent in midfield, when Casemiro, Eriksen are gone and Mount is a permanent sick note.
Add to that the Bruno situation, if we get 150 million for a 31 year old he goes, that leaves another huge hole in the team that will be a priority to fill, so much work to do in reality.
What?
Except that's not the only variable here.
I love Ole but we saw what happened when Ole tried to move away from transitional football.
This is a 'rip the bandaid' momment for the club that's well overdue. Yes the OP stat is dissapointing but context matters alot here in my opinion.
Listen, let’s save the semantics. I’m guessing everyone is bored of this.
Did Ole really try and move away from transitional football? It was widely reported after he left that Carrick and McKenna pushed for a more expansive approach but were rebuffed. I think Ole ran out of ideas and was a deer in the headlights. He did have a much better squad than what we have now, certainly in terms of attacking threat. Not sure anyone can really dispute that.
He said so himself on Stick to Football.
And came off quite naive tbh. All of a sudden, he decided to change styles simply because we're man united and we have to play on the front foot. Like there was no proper planning. Just stick in a past-it Ronaldo and hope to become a dominant side overnight.
Damning.
Still had flaws, but DDG was better than Onana. Shaw was better than any of our fullbacks/wingbacks. Front three is miles better than our current front three, they actually knew how to play football and score goals. Matic, Pogba and Bruno were a decent midfield, even if Pogba and Matic were on their last legs.
The only weakness there really was the Maguire/Lindelof partnership and AWB wasn't the best going forward and erratic at defending crosses. This notion that its worse than our current first 11 is bonkers.
that's not semantics. 'attacked' is hysterical nonsense and very different from having a go, which you repeatedly did about the 'timing' of this thread. Something you keep denying even though it's black and white . The time line of my awful interaction with you is very clear and you just can't stop digging in. I suggested way back to leave it be and you just can'tI don't know, put this team in 3-4-2-1 with fullbacks in WB positions and it looks like that.
DDG
Lindelof - Maguire - Bailly/Rojo
AWB - Matic - Pogba - Shaw
Fernandes - Rashford
Martial
Bailly and Rojo were injured a lot so Shaw would probably go to CB with an inexperienced Dalot or Dan James moved to WB. Pogba was mostly missing as well so that's McFred in midfield. Greenwood barely has a place in this formation.
We were definitely better in attack, but the back and midfield were awful. We'd get eaten alive if we tried to play from the back the way we do now.
Despite our league position, I feel we have played better this season than last. We have been the more dominant team is a significant number of the games we have lost this year and have been hamstrung by our weak forwards inability to convert chances.
I believe that we are on the right path now and maybe only 1 or 2 signings away from a much stronger league position next season.
I believe that we are on the right path now and maybe only 1 or 2 signings away from a much stronger league position next season.
Yes, I agree with that, as I write further down in the post. But the other guy seems to reason that way.