12 months since Mourinho was sacked and we've arguably gone backwards

[iluvoursolskjær]

Not being able to break low blocks is a problem we've suffered for donkeys. The only difference now is we don't have Fellaini to lump it up to and attack the second ball. If selling Fellaini = us going backwards as a football club, then sure.

I'm not even an Ole-In guy, but the emotional responses behind the 'going backwards' argument is a bit sad.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

I remember Newcastle United saying the same thing. We are managed terribly at all levels. Stranger things have happened. If we can only get results again 5 of the 19 teams in the league then there is every chance we could go down.



Fair play

If we keep Ole and decline further with Pogba leaving and us not spending any money then maybe things could get ugly if we get 10 injuries or something. Still can't really see relegation.

 

[Paxi]

You remember all those guys giving the OP dogs abuse, where are you?

Should at least have the courage to crawl out under your rocks.

 

[dwd]

Not being able to break low blocks is a problem we've suffered for donkeys. The only difference now is we don't have Fellaini to lump it up to and attack the second ball. If selling Fellaini = us going backwards as a football club, then sure.

I'm not even an Ole-In guy, but the emotional responses behind the 'going backwards' argument is a bit sad.

Why is it sad? The stats speak for themselves unfortunately.

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

Why is it sad? The stats speak for themselves unfortunately.

I mean the emotional ones, calling others stupid and such for not 'seeing it'.

Our stats around performance and that don't make for pretty reading in isolation and I've said as much in previous post.

 

[Nevilles.Wear.Prada]

24 points behind Liverpool with them having a game in hand

by december.

 

[Wanderlust_09]

United under Jose in the league in his first season and last year August to December was every bit as mediocre as it currently is. So be it Jose with a top CV or Ole with the experience of the Norwegian league United are stuck in a rut and the problems at the club are more deep rooted than the manager.

United under Jose's first season was waaay better than what we are now.
Don't know how you could forget the countless draws were we created so many chances, for us to miss them or the GK to turn out world class at OT.
We created far more chances back then, Zlatan was the striker that year who missed the most big chances in the PL. We had two 6 game winning streaks that season and a long unbeaten streak.
Towards the end we put all our eggs in the Europa league basket, thereby losing a lot of points.

Of course we were still average, but saying that the current season is no different from his first season is an overstatement.

 

[littleman]

Jose at his worst has done better than Ole at his best. This is the gulf of quality. No amount of niceness can overcome that large of a gap in competence.

Everything fell apart when Jose wasn't backed and yet wasn't fired. That shows poor board management, further exemplified by Ole's early appointment to FT manager after only 10 games.

If we can beat big teams and lose to small ones, it's an indication that we have a sufficiently ceiling for high player quality but not the coaching or mentality to bring out that consistency.

The board persisting with this arrangement will be a nightmare. The team needs to have large changes, with a top quality coach we back more than the players.

Get rid of or demote from XI - Martial, Pogba, Shaw, Lingard, Perreira, Mata

Buy 2 strong top class midfielders, 1 top class forward and the team will look very different. Stop buying potential; there's so many of that in our youngsters. We need players who are already there.

The owners can want a sale, but they're on a path that is severely negatively impacting the market value of MUFC.

 

[always_hoping]

United under Jose's first season was waaay better than what we are now.
Don't know how you could forget the countless draws were we created so many chances, for us to miss them or the GK to turn out world class at OT.
We created far more chances back then, Zlatan was the striker that year who missed the most big chances in the PL. We had two 6 game winning streaks that season and a long unbeaten streak.
Towards the end we put all our eggs in the Europa league basket, thereby losing a lot of points.

Of course we were still average, but saying that the current season is no different from his first season is an overstatement.

It was still a 6th place finish in the league where United at best will finish this season again? At the half way stage United were 6th in 2016/17 season also and plenty were questioning had we improved at all from the LVG era. I certainly remember those games, attended a few of them and Zlatan in particular got slated on here for his misses. Then there was other games such as Arsenal, West ham at home where United created few chances and dropped points.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Sacking Mourinho was the right decision. It's just a shame we replaced him with someone as mediocre as Ole. And it hasn't set us back yet. More like left us meandering aimlessly which is nearly the same thing. Although if Chelsea get top 4 and beat us to crucial targets such as Jason Sancho you could definitely say that relative to them were slipping further behind the longer we continue to be managed poorly.

 

[Marooned]

Sacking Mourinho was the right decision. It's just a shame we replaced him with someone as mediocre as Ole. And it hasn't set us back yet. More like left us meandering aimlessly which is nearly the same thing. Although if Chelsea get top 4 and beat us to crucial targets such as Jason Sancho you could definitely say that relative to them were slipping further behind the longer we continue to be managed poorly.

Bringing Ole as interim manager was the best decision ever the club did. But they had to focus on finding a world class manager with top tier experience after, I guess they went too far with Ole, they could have kept him as assistant manager or something after recruiting a new manager.

 

[Class of 63]

25 points from 18 games. Our lowest return ever, beating the next lowest by 4 points.

Ever? You do realise there was football before 1992 don't you, albeit it more on an amateurish level, obviously

"Forever and ever.....

 

[Enigma_87]

Ever? You do realise there was football before 1992 don't you, albeit it more on an amateurish level, obviously

"Forever and ever.....

Only 4 times since we were relegated(73/74) we had worse record from 18 games than what we have today.

 

[James Ward]

The question you have to ask yourself is how many of our first 11 would get into the City or Liverpool team.

Except for Pogba and Rashford I would say no one else. (Probably Maguire with City defensive injuries).

How many times could you say only two when SAF was manager.


The team and squad is so bad I don't know where to start.

Young, Martial, Andreas, Mata, Lingard, Shaw, Jones, Bailly, Matic all need to go.

I'd start the rebuild with a striker, right winger, 2 midfielders and a new manager.

Why does he keep playing the same team and formation against lower opposition is mind boggling. He'd be better off with a flat 4-5-1 and hoping we'll nick a goal with some of the quality we have.

 

[Class of 63]

Only 4 times since we were relegated(73/74) we had worse record from 18 games than what we have today.

So not ever then?

 

[Enigma_87]

So not ever then?

In Premier league it's ever. Like it or not it is what it is.

In our history it's one of the worst since half a century, but I guess going that far back makes it better?

 

[hobbers]

We are now LESS than 1 point per game against the bottom 13 sides.

 

[Class of 63]

In Premier league it's ever. Like it or not it is what it is.

In our history it's one of the worst since half a century, but I guess going that far back makes it better?

What a Premier League where we regularly finished first, second or third? It's a non Stat, now if it was a club like Newcastle.....

 

[Enigma_87]

What a Premier League where we regularly finished first, second or third? It's a non Stat, now if it was a club like Newcastle.....

We regularly finished 2nd or third even before Fergie and before we were relegated.

In fact between 80-86 we finished outside the top 4 only once.

I think we have finished outside the top 10 on 6 or 7 occasions since World War II(where we're heading this year), so I guess that should make us feel better that there are other 10 examples in the last 80 years we were as shit as we are now?

 

[Class of 63]

We regularly finished 2nd or third even before Fergie and before we were relegated.

In fact between 80-86 we finished outside the top 4 only once.

I think we have finished outside the top 10 on 6 or 7 occasions since World War II(where we're heading this year), so I guess that should make us feel better that there are other 10 examples in the last 80 years we were as shit as we are now?

You're coming back at the wrong person with history lessons mate, i'll leave it at that.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

What a Premier League where we regularly finished first, second or third? It's a non Stat, now if it was a club like Newcastle.....

Our manager manages Manchester United not Newcastle and will be judged by our standards not theirs. It is a stat whether you like it or not. There is no such thing as a 'non stat'.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Ever? You do realise there was football before 1992 don't you, albeit it more on an amateurish level, obviously

"Forever and ever.....

Ok, take that stat in isolation for what it is. 25 points from 18 games is a piss poor return for any Man United manager. We're on target for our worst points return since SAF retired and its not at all surprising.

 

[izec]

The question you have to ask yourself is how many of our first 11 would get into the City or Liverpool team.

Except for Pogba and Rashford I would say no one else. (Probably Maguire with City defensive injuries).

How many times could you say only two when SAF was manager.


The team and squad is so bad I don't know where to start.

Young, Martial, Andreas, Mata, Lingard, Shaw, Jones, Bailly, Matic all need to go.

I'd start the rebuild with a striker, right winger, 2 midfielders and a new manager.

Why does he keep playing the same team and formation against lower opposition is mind boggling. He'd be better off with a flat 4-5-1 and hoping we'll nick a goal with some of the quality we have.

you are asking the wrong question. This question is only valid if we were demanding a league title.

This question doesnt help if you are 8th and lose to the 20th team in the league with 2-0 away as well as drawing with Everton, both teams in a mess.

we should be in a top 4 fight, simple as. Look at the table and the teams around us/behind us, it is embarrassing to come up with squad excuses for this purpose. We are not competing against City, Barca, Pool and Real Madrid at this point in time

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Bringing Ole as interim manager was the best decision ever the club did. But they had to focus on finding a world class manager with top tier experience after, I guess they went too far with Ole, they could have kept him as assistant manager or something after recruiting a new manager.

Yeah that was the best decision in the history of the football club

His hiring as interim manager felt right at the time but no interim manager who isn't good enough for the full time job is all that crucial an appointment. Moreso considering we finished outside the top 4 either way.

Why would they keep him as assistant manager ? Is there some compulsion to have him at the club in some capacity?

I don't know about world class manager if you by that you mean someone established. But we need someone with top class ability. And Ole isnt that.

 

[RedWat]

His style of play wasn't to dominate teams and United also lost to plenty of games against "dross teams" under Jose and he was meant to be a top manager.

Watford (A) 1-3
Arsenal (A) 0-2
Huddersfield (A) 1-2
Burnley 2-2 (H)
Southampton 0-0 (H)
Newcastle 0-1 (A)
West Brom 0-1 (H)
Brighton 0-1 (A)
Brighton 2-3 (A)
Wolves 1-1 (H)
West Ham (A) 1-3
Palace (H) 0-0
Southampton (H) 2-2
Arsenal (H) 2-2

Also knocked out of Europe by Sevilla when Jose had that rant about how great he was and the league cup by the might of Derby and Bristol City.

Yes Jose did lose plenty of games against lower teams in his last season, but you can't put to one side the 3rd season toxicity Jose produces at whatever club he is at. In Jose's 2nd season in his second spell at Chelsea they won the league the next season he is out, started the season with the pointless "spat" with the club doctor and the rest is history as the players "downed tools". We knew this before he came to Utd but we hope that he would change.

It reminds me of the story of the scorpion and the frog "A scorpion, which cannot swim, asks a frog to carry it across a river on its back. The frog hesitates, afraid of being stung by the scorpion, but the scorpion argues that if it did that, they would both drown. The frog considers this argument sensible and agrees to transport the scorpion, but midway across the river the scorpion stings the frog anyway, dooming them both. The dying frog asks the scorpion why it stung despite knowing the consequence, to which the scorpion replies: "I couldn't help it. It's in my nature.".

Jose was indeed Man Utd's Scorpion to their frog.

 

[Irrational.]

Someone posted this on Reddit. And sadly it reflects how we've come to accept mediocrity.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

Jose was actively trying to sabotage the season last year and created a toxic environment before preseason even started all the way till his last game. Ole is giving his very best and has the team playing for him and has generally created a good atmosphere around the club.

With all that said there is absolutely no improvement if we look at things overall. Sure, signings have been better as have performances against top sides but the squad is far worse and so is the defence. That alone makes Ole's tenure terrible because he's actually trying his best to keep the job unlike Mourinho who was begging for the sack after the West Ham game early in the season.

Jose did indeed sabotage the club before a ball was kicked that season, the atmosphere at the club was horrific and he had to go.

The atmosphere now is not good. There's no need to sugar-coat something when there is no need for it - the players seem spineless, cowardly, and complete uncoached. The atmosphere is still shite, it's just less shite than before and rather than being publicly berated for being shite, the players are now told that it's okay to be shite. I don't see how this atmosphere is beneficial to this football club.

Anyway, nobody can fault Ole's effort - he is indeed giving it his best, nobody could say otherwise. The problem is that his best is nowhere near good enough. Effort is the very least any club expects of a manager - Roy Hodgson would be giving his very best here and he would not being do well enough for Man UNited. But he would be doing better than Ole, that's for sure.

 

[NewGlory]

The atmosphere now is not good. There's no need to sugar-coat something when there is no need for it - the players seem spineless, cowardly, and complete uncoached. The atmosphere is still shite, it's just less shite than before and rather than being publicly berated for being shite, the players are now told that it's okay to be shite. I don't see how this atmosphere is beneficial to this football club.

I strongly disagree. There was not a single game, this season, where team didn't try or was lazy in the way that it would happen for every other game for Mourinho. Even in the disastrous game yesterday (probably one of the worst) – you could not say that somebody, anybody was just not trying. Quality sucked, but nobody was half-assing it. The entire game was at very high speed. We lost because we made too many mistakes, but not because anybody was walking around the field.

There are a lot of positives, what sucks is that they don't translate into results and it is a big deal because at the end football is about results. That said, as heartbreaking as this team is, I would take it over Mourinho's mess any day of the week. Mourinho's team was toxic and disgusting, ever since the Ibra injury/Europa League win.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

I strongly disagree. There was not a single game, this season, where team didn't try or was lazy in the way that it would happen for every other game for Mourinho. Even in the disastrous game yesterday (probably one of the worst) – you could not say that somebody, anybody was just not trying. Quality sucked, but nobody was half-assing it. The entire game was at very high speed. We lost because we made too many mistakes, but not because anybody was walking around the field.

There are a lot of positives, what sucks is that they don't translate into results and it is a big deal because at the end football is about results. That said, as heartbreaking as this team is, I would take it over Mourinho's mess any day of the week. Mourinho's team was toxic and disgusting, ever since the Ibra injury/Europa League win.

I would agree with that. But again, that in itself is not a positive.

 

[NewGlory]

I would agree with that. But again, that in itself is not a positive.

Right, it's a response to the title of this thread "we've arguably gone backwards". We haven't gone backwards, we just haven't improved enough. I hated Mourinho team in the end, I don't hate this team, even if it breaks my heart. But we are not doing well. If we were doing well, we would be comfortably top 4 right now.

What sucks is that it's not even that hard to be top 4 this year, given how many of other teams are struggling. It was much harder in previous years when Arsenal, Spurs, and Chelsea were not rubbish, and City was doing way better. For crying out loud, we've had worst start of the season in decades, points-wise, and we could have still been fighting for top 4 if we didn't feck it up with Everton and Watford, arguably easy games.

 

[spiriticon]

We haven't gone backwards imo, but we certainly haven't gone forwards either. We are exactly where we are 12 months ago. Stagnated.

The only difference is the grey cloud that is Mourinho has dissipated, so all that remains is fixing the footballing side of things. Easier said than done though, obviously. Over the years, we seem to be collecting CBs like they are Pokemon cards and we still have yet to hit upon that shiny, super rare good one.

 

[el3mel]

Someone posted this on Reddit. And sadly it reflects how we've come to accept mediocrity.

Doing worse than LVG's second season when we collapsed by December.

 

[Irrational.]

Doing worse than LVG's second season when we collapsed by December.

What gets me is that we're 6 points worse off than Moyes' horrific debut season - and yet we have posters here who genuinely believe Ole has some kind of masterplan to turn this all around.

 

[hobbers]

2 wins less than David fecking Moyes and 4 points worse off than Mourinho's toxic meltdown "sack me as soon as possible" season. Also 4 points worse off than LVG at the point Woodward decided he was going to sack him at the end of the season come what may.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Doing worse than LVG's second season when we collapsed by December.

That was probably the weirdest season in PL history. Somehow we remained in contention for top 4 until the final day because every team seemingly decided they wanted to be shit that year.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

That was probably the weirdest season in PL history. Somehow we remained in contention for top 4 until the final day because every team seemingly decided they wanted to be shit that year.

We were top of the league in November, weren't we?

 

[redshaw]

Someone posted this on Reddit. And sadly it reflects how we've come to accept mediocrity.

Not surprising it's in-line with LVG's second season. Very reminiscent of how we used to play against the lower teams, struggling to break them down and continual sideways passing, looking completely lost on corners and most likely to concede when taking one.

In LVG's second season we scored 49 goals and we're on course for about 49-54. Can only hope Pogba help us get more and some of our young players keep improving.

 

[Class of 63]

Our manager manages Manchester United not Newcastle and will be judged by our standards not theirs. It is a stat whether you like it or not. There is no such thing as a 'non stat'.

Okay then, it's a shit stat, I blame SAF for being so bloody successful, he's got a lot to answer for, wish he'd stayed at Aberdeen.

 

[Class of 63]

Ok, take that stat in isolation for what it is. 25 points from 18 games is a piss poor return for any Man United manager. We're on target for our worst points return since SAF retired and its not at all surprising.

Let's see what the second half of the season brings, if anybody had said that United would win the 'Treble' at this time of the year in the 98/99 season they'd have been carted away by the men in white coats and put in a padded cell for their own protection.

 

[JMack1234]

Between 2016 and the end of the 2018 season Jose had won the Europa League and has us 2nd in the league which is something Ole would give various parts of his body to get anywhere near.

It was the right decision to sack Jose for a plethora of reasons I'm sure most of us can remember. The mistake is that the board got carried away with the fans silly euphoria that somehow a man whose managerial CV consists of competing in Norway and a brief, yet disastrous, period in charge of Cardiff was the man to take this club on.

I don't blame Ole at all. In fact I feel for him. He loves this club to a memeable level and is trying he absolute best but it's clear he isn't the man to take us forward. I'm not #Oleout because I see no point at the moment. However when/if Poch indicates to us that he's willing to come in we have to be ruthless. Get rid of Ole and bring in a first class manager.