2021 German Federal Election - who will replace Merkel - 6 different government coalitions possible

Rektsanwalt

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I'm actually too smug and condescending to explain it to you, no offense.
That's no surprise, to be honest. No offense taken.
 

Rado_N

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I'm actually too smug and condescending to explain it to you, no offense.
As someone who knows nothing about these parties and is reading this thread in the hope of learning something this just reeks of not actually being able to back up your comment.
 

DOTA

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As someone who knows nothing about these parties and is reading this thread in the hope of learning something this just reeks of not actually being able to back up your comment.
To be honest I think the only thing you're going to discover on this issue is that some people call centre right parties right wing and some call them centrist.
 

UweBein

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My gut feeling: we'll see a Jamaica coalition. Better for the FDP anyway and for the Greens - for the latter because they got on really well with the CDU in a Jamaica coalition in SW. Also, a climate oriented politics would be difficult with the SPD as well.
 

Rektsanwalt

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To be honest I think the only thing you're going to discover on this issue is that some people call centre right parties right wing and some call them centrist.
The real reason is that behind these different words might be some ideology hidden. People who deem the Union "right wing" will most likely call themselves "left wing". It's diffamation to discredit political reality and antagonize.
 

berbatrick

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inspired by this thread, but not about germany:

the refusal to categorise yourself into a political camp takes many forms. one of them is to dig up old terms and re-use them: "classical liberal" is a prime example here. the most common is of course proudly proclaiming oneself not bound by dogma. "i'm left on some issues, right on others - a free thinker, not a sheep." "labels are a poor fit for my thinking." sometimes it works in a defensive way - "yes, i'm kindof on the left, but unlike the pink-hairs, i'm sensible".

for me it's the mark of a true snowflake - not just in the fragile sense, but in the extremely individualistic sense. there are reasons why certain ideologies and policies go together. why, for example, voters in the US who supported gay marriage tended to be less supportive of the iraq war, though in the snowflake's framework, these are separate issues to be considered differently. this happens because different aspects of politics arise from a common thought process or material reality or historical process. but acknowledging that cuts out the individual free-thinking uniqueness people love to think they have!
 

Hansi Fick

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As someone who knows nothing about these parties and is reading this thread in the hope of learning something this just reeks of not actually being able to back up your comment.
That might be how it reeks to you but then by your own admission you know nothing about it so it doesn't really matter does it.
 

Rektsanwalt

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If differentiating means being a snowflake I‘m be happy to be one
 

nimic

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There's no actual right wing party bar AfD in the german parliament, only former, which is why talking only about left and right when it comes to parties like SPD, Grüne, FDP and Union is nonesense nowadays. No doubt there has been aspects of said parties which made it much easier to really divide into left and right.
Surely it's relative, tough? I realize Germany has a bit of a bad history with right-wing politics, but you don't have to be a Nazi to be right-wing. In Norway, 99% of parliamentary delegates supported Biden in the US presidential election, but that doesn't mean our Conservative Party (literally named "Right") aren't considered right-wing by the standards of the country. Centre-right, perhaps, but still on the right. They support the welfare state and the continued (partial) state ownership of certain companies, but they're still the conservative party.

I'm not at all clued into German politics, but we've got Germans here (I assume?) saying that the CDU is still considered on the right, so it's difficult to understand why that wouldn't apply in Germany as well.
 

do.ob

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My gut feeling: we'll see a Jamaica coalition. Better for the FDP anyway and for the Greens - for the latter because they got on really well with the CDU in a Jamaica coalition in SW. Also, a climate oriented politics would be difficult with the SPD as well.
To be honest I have a hard time imagining either three party coalition without either the greens or the FPD looking like sellouts to their voters.

Surely it's relative, tough? I realize Germany has a bit of a bad history with right-wing politics, but you don't have to be a Nazi to be right-wing. In Norway, 99% of parliamentary delegates supported Biden in the US presidential election, but that doesn't mean our Conservative Party (literally named "Right") aren't considered right-wing by the standards of the country. Centre-right, perhaps, but still on the right. They support the welfare state and the continued (partial) state ownership of certain companies, but they're still the conservative party.

I'm not at all clued into German politics, but we've got Germans here (I assume?) saying that the CDU is still considered on the right, so it's difficult to understand why that wouldn't apply in Germany as well.
I don't really see the issue either. Sure, the CDU moved towards the center under Merkel, but in the end they are still conservatives, it's still the party that's home to H.G. Maaßen and the "Werteunion" which are somewhat closely aligned with AFD positions.
 

bucky

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As someone who knows nothing about these parties and is reading this thread in the hope of learning something this just reeks of not actually being able to back up your comment.
Merkel's party, the CDU, and the FDP are definitely right leaning. There hasn't been a shift to the left. She just appears more centrist or not as much right wing. Merkel's wannabe successor and several other prominent figures in that party have been warning about a shift to the left, while it looks like the actual left party barely gets into parliament and the actual Nazis get 10%. Just as an example, that sums her up fairly well; in 2017 due to pressure she agreed to a vote on marriage for all (meaning same-sex marriage), which made her look progressive from the outside or on a superficial level, while she voted against it.

Surely it's relative, tough? I realize Germany has a bit of a bad history with right-wing politics, but you don't have to be a Nazi to be right-wing. In Norway, 99% of parliamentary delegates supported Biden in the US presidential election, but that doesn't mean our Conservative Party (literally named "Right") aren't considered right-wing by the standards of the country. Centre-right, perhaps, but still on the right. They support the welfare state and the continued (partial) state ownership of certain companies, but they're still the conservative party.

I'm not at all clued into German politics, but we've got Germans here (I assume?) saying that the CDU is still considered on the right, so it's difficult to understand why that wouldn't apply in Germany as well.
It's utter nonsense to claim that the CDU and FDP aren't right wing. You are correct.
 

Rado_N

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Merkel's party, the CDU, and the FDP are definitely right leaning. There hasn't been a shift to the left. She just appears more centrist or not as much right wing. Merkel's wannabe successor and several other prominent figures in that party have been warning about a shift to the left, while it looks like the actual left party barely gets into parliament and the actual Nazis get 10%. Just as an example, that sums her up fairly well; in 2017 due to pressure she agreed to a vote on marriage for all (meaning same-sex marriage), which made her look progressive from the outside or on a superficial level, while she voted against it.



It's utter nonsense to claim that the CDU and FDP aren't right wing. You are correct.
Thanks.
 

Revan

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My gut feeling: we'll see a Jamaica coalition. Better for the FDP anyway and for the Greens - for the latter because they got on really well with the CDU in a Jamaica coalition in SW. Also, a climate oriented politics would be difficult with the SPD as well.
Greens and FDP would be funny, considering that they have almost exact opposite policies in a few important things. Can CDU both lower taxes and also spend heavily to do something about the climate change, so it keeps both sides happy?
 

DOTA

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inspired by this thread, but not about germany:

the refusal to categorise yourself into a political camp takes many forms. one of them is to dig up old terms and re-use them: "classical liberal" is a prime example here. the most common is of course proudly proclaiming oneself not bound by dogma. "i'm left on some issues, right on others - a free thinker, not a sheep." "labels are a poor fit for my thinking." sometimes it works in a defensive way - "yes, i'm kindof on the left, but unlike the pink-hairs, i'm sensible".

for me it's the mark of a true snowflake - not just in the fragile sense, but in the extremely individualistic sense. there are reasons why certain ideologies and policies go together. why, for example, voters in the US who supported gay marriage tended to be less supportive of the iraq war, though in the snowflake's framework, these are separate issues to be considered differently. this happens because different aspects of politics arise from a common thought process or material reality or historical process. but acknowledging that cuts out the individual free-thinking uniqueness people love to think they have!
It looks quite fun. I've often been tempted to claim I can't be categorized as a biased lefty because the only Labour leader I voted for was Brown. Leave out all context and it's quite a convincing argument I think.
 

Kasper

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Surely it's relative, tough? I realize Germany has a bit of a bad history with right-wing politics, but you don't have to be a Nazi to be right-wing. In Norway, 99% of parliamentary delegates supported Biden in the US presidential election, but that doesn't mean our Conservative Party (literally named "Right") aren't considered right-wing by the standards of the country. Centre-right, perhaps, but still on the right. They support the welfare state and the continued (partial) state ownership of certain companies, but they're still the conservative party.

I'm not at all clued into German politics, but we've got Germans here (I assume?) saying that the CDU is still considered on the right, so it's difficult to understand why that wouldn't apply in Germany as well.
Yes it does apply, they just love to frame themselves as "the center" (whatever that means) and people keep falling for that.

I might write a longer post about the parties tomorrow, too tired now. My personal favorite result this evening comes from Austria anyway, @Sweet Square and @berbatrick will love this: In the local election of the city of Graz, the Communist Party of Austria (KPÖ) has won with almost 30% of the votes :devil::lol:
 

Revan

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As someone who knows nothing about these parties and is reading this thread in the hope of learning something this just reeks of not actually being able to back up your comment.
Honestly, it is pretty complex. Essentially, the main German party, the Union, is not a party at all. Instead, it is a coalition of CDU (all Germany except Bavaria) and CSU (Bayern). Those two parties are completely separated but they are sister parties. What it means is that CSU does not run outside of Bavaria, and CDU does not run in Bavaria. Also, in general elections they go together, but it is not 100% guaranteed (there have been clashes during their history and once, almost a complete separation). So, while in government, CSU should be considered more as a junior partner, and Merkel (and now the new president of CDU) do not have control over CSU, who in every sense is an independent party.

What this also means is that CSU is more conservative than CDU, which makes the Union more conservative than CDU. So Merkel, not only needed to satisfy the fractions of CDU, but also not piss off CSU (which she did quite a lot). While Merkel was quite centrist, CSU always complained about many of her policies, especially her decision to accept immigrants from Middle East.

In the end, the Union is still to the right of the center, but the Liberals are probably more to the right, and AfD is essentially as right-wing as Tea Party. Which makes the impression that the Union is center, despite them being center-right.

Something similar can be said for the left wing politics in Germany. SPD are center-left, Green Party a bit more to the left, and The Left being lunatics.
 

Rado_N

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Honestly, it is pretty complex. Essentially, the main German party, the Union, is not a party at all. Instead, it is a coalition of CDU (all Germany except Bavaria) and CSU (Bayern). Those two parties are completely separated but they are sister parties. What it means is that CSU does not run outside of Bavaria, and CDU does not run in Bavaria. Also, in general elections they go together, but it is not 100% guaranteed (there have been clashes during their history and once, almost a complete separation). So, while in government, CSU should be considered more as a junior partner, and Merkel (and now the new president of CDU) do not have control over CSU, who in every sense is an independent party.

What this also means is that CSU is more conservative than CDU, which makes the Union more conservative than CDU. So Merkel, not only needed to satisfy the fractions of CDU, but also not piss off CSU (which she did quite a lot). While Merkel was quite centrist, CSU always complained about many of her policies, especially her decision to accept immigrants from Middle East.

In the end, the Union is still to the right of the center, but the Liberals are probably more to the right, and AfD is essentially as right-wing as Tea Party. Which makes the impression that the Union is center, despite them being center-right.

Something similar can be said for the left wing politics in Germany. SPD are center-left, Green Party a bit more to the left, and The Left being lunatics.
Interesting thanks.
 

Abizzz

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Honestly, it is pretty complex. Essentially, the main German party, the Union, is not a party at all. Instead, it is a coalition of CDU (all Germany except Bavaria) and CSU (Bayern). Those two parties are completely separated but they are sister parties. What it means is that CSU does not run outside of Bavaria, and CDU does not run in Bavaria. Also, in general elections they go together, but it is not 100% guaranteed (there have been clashes during their history and once, almost a complete separation). So, while in government, CSU should be considered more as a junior partner, and Merkel (and now the new president of CDU) do not have control over CSU, who in every sense is an independent party.

What this also means is that CSU is more conservative than CDU, which makes the Union more conservative than CDU. So Merkel, not only needed to satisfy the fractions of CDU, but also not piss off CSU (which she did quite a lot). While Merkel was quite centrist, CSU always complained about many of her policies, especially her decision to accept immigrants from Middle East.

In the end, the Union is still to the right of the center, but the Liberals are probably more to the right, and AfD is essentially as right-wing as Tea Party. Which makes the impression that the Union is center, despite them being center-right.

Something similar can be said for the left wing politics in Germany. SPD are center-left, Green Party a bit more to the left, and The Left being lunatics.
Good explanation but I would like to add that one really needs to differentiate between social and economical issues with both the CSU and Greens. The CSU is socially more conservative than the CDU but economically at times (not very recent, admittedly) to the left. The greens are left on social issues but the modern "Kretschmann greens" aren't very left on economical issues; I'd actually argue they have a very wide range of opinions among them. Similarly the FDP is both socially liberal and economically conservative.
 

Hansi Fick

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You’re looking like an idiot.
I don't care.
The fact of the matter is if someone peddles the narrative that Merkel has pushed the CDU to the left (and with it claiming that the party is not actually a right wing party 'anymore'), I know that I don't share a common reality with that person.
This alleged "social-democratization of the CDU' is a favourite narrative of right-wingers (yes!), and its only substance I guess it that for those people Merkel's lack of, let's call it, masculinity, seems to exclude her from being a right wing politician... because it surely can't be down to actual policy.
It's like if someone claims the BBC has a 'left wing bias', you instantly know who you're dealing with.
 

Revan

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Good explanation but I would like to add that one really needs to differentiate between social and economical issues with both the CSU and Greens. The CSU is socially more conservative than the CDU but economically at times (not very recent, admittedly) to the left. The greens are left on social issues but the modern "Kretschmann greens" aren't very left on economical issues; I'd actually argue they have a very wide range of opinions among them. Similarly the FDP is both socially liberal and economically conservative.
Yeah, agree. As you said though, CSU at the moment is not more to the left of CDU in economical policies, in fact, I would argue the opposite. And in social issues, it is not even close (probably because of Bavaria's Catholicism).

FDP are essentially lite-libertarians. They should change their name from liberals to libertarians.
 

Siorac

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FDP are essentially lite-libertarians. They should change their name from liberals to libertarians.
Let's not start americanising European politics any further, if possible. It's a shame their nutters monopolised the word libertarian for themselves - maybe in Europe it can make a comeback without the free market fetishists claiming it for their own.
 

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Let's not start americanising European politics any further, if possible. It's a shame their nutters monopolised the word libertarian for themselves - maybe in Europe it can make a comeback without the free market fetishists claiming it for their own.
What does libertarian mean to you then? Cause the basic idea is to get the government out of as many aspects of society and life as possible.

(On another note, looks like I was wrong on the FPD then; I thought they were like liberals in most other countries.)
 

Siorac

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What does libertarian mean to you then? Cause the basic idea is to get the government out of as many aspects of society and life as possible.

(On another note, looks like I was wrong on the FPD then; I thought they were like liberals in most other countries.)
Here's the thing: outside the English-speaking world, and particularly the US, 'libertarian' isn't really a noteworthy political stance nowadays. In European political tradition, libertarianism is primarily associated with the left as the roots of it are in the socialist movement, closely related to anarchist schools of thought.

FPD, as far as I'm aware - and I'm very much open to the Germans correcting me on this -, are pretty much classical liberals. That the word liberal has basically come to mean 'Democrat' in the US is no reason to stop calling European classical liberal parties anything other than liberal.
 

DOTA

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What does libertarian mean to you then?
In terms of those who self identify it's people who want to abolish mandatory seat belt wearing but introduce government issued child brides.
 

DOTA

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Is there any hope of that Berlin referendum on housing appropriation coming to anything or is it just an amusing waste of everyone's time?
 

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FPD, as far as I'm aware - and I'm very much open to the Germans correcting me on this -, are pretty much classical liberals. That the word liberal has basically come to mean 'Democrat' in the US is no reason to stop calling European classical liberal parties anything other than liberal.
I definitely agree on that. The US political spectrum is nothing like what you see anywhere in Europe (or Canada), with both big parties on the right (centre-right and pretty far right). By Europeans standards, the Democrats are neither progressive nor particularly liberal, and it's not helpful to discuss European politics from that point of reference.
 

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I might write a longer post about the parties tomorrow, too tired now. My personal favorite result this evening comes from Austria anyway, @Sweet Square and @berbatrick will love this: In the local election of the city of Graz, the Communist Party of Austria (KPÖ) has won with almost 30% of the votes :devil::lol:
It's happening!


I've only had a quick look online after seeing you're post. Can't find out much about them other than a Jacobin article giving a bit of party history and what they do on the ground level, woman leader as well. Will be interesting to see what happens(Saw online that she hasn't said if she will take the role as major). Not that means much but also the communist party is Russia has been get good numbers in recent polls as well. We live in a very strange world atm.
 

berbatrick

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It's happening!


I've only had a quick look online after seeing you're post. Can't find out much about them other than a Jacobin article giving a bit of party history and what they do on the ground level, woman leader as well. Will be interesting to see what happens(Saw online that she hasn't said if she will take the role as major). Not that means much but also the communist party is Russia has been get good numbers in recent polls as well. We live in a very strange world atm.
Major for mayor is your best mis-spelling so far I think.
 

strongwalker

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It's happening!


I've only had a quick look online after seeing you're post. Can't find out much about them other than a Jacobin article giving a bit of party history and what they do on the ground level, woman leader as well. Will be interesting to see what happens(Saw online that she hasn't said if she will take the role as major). Not that means much but also the communist party is Russia has been get good numbers in recent polls as well. We live in a very strange world atm.
with KPÖ replacing ÖVP as strongest party, Russias influence actually has diminished....
 

UweBein

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Greens and FDP would be funny, considering that they have almost exact opposite policies in a few important things. Can CDU both lower taxes and also spend heavily to do something about the climate change, so it keeps both sides happy?
The FDP want to be part of the government. Lindner - despite all his talk - has only one goal: heading the ministry of finance or foreign affairs or economy. He is nothing but a political gigolo.
It's attractive - both for the Greens and FDP - to rule with a weaker senior partner.
 

stefan92

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Greens and FDP would be funny, considering that they have almost exact opposite policies in a few important things. Can CDU both lower taxes and also spend heavily to do something about the climate change, so it keeps both sides happy?
First attempts to come together were already visible in talk shows. FDP proposing tax benefits for private spending on climate saving stuff would be one example how these two could come together.