2021 Sheep Draft R1 - Pat_Mustard vs. Sjor Bepo

[Michaelf7777777]

Pat_Mustard

Formation: 4-2-3-1

Gloriously straight-forward except for Dalglish at CF - our biggest requirements there were great back-to-goal play and intelligent, selfless decisions on the ball, and he ticks both boxes. Really didn't want to draw Bepo's team as it is basically his pressing wet dream, and misery for any opposition, but he's not out-fighting a team with Passerella, Robson et al

Sjor Bepo

High Line, High press.
Team filled with absolute GOATs when it comes to team work and work rate. Usually you would pay to see something on the ball but id actually pay to see this team defend, would be worth every penny no matter the price. Regarding high line, dont think you can ask for a better pair, 2 freaks of nature that form a such a natural stopper-sweeper combo.
In possession team is perfectly capable of doing multiple things which is always a great asset as they can asses the game situation, opponent and do what its best. If they need to play and dominate possession, well, they only have the best midfielder that ever played the game in his natural habitat. If they need to go direct, they have the personel to do it and the same center-piece of the team proved himself in a fairly direct setup before.

 

[Michaelf7777777]

@Pat_Mustard @Šjor Bepo

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@Pat_Mustard good luck love, doubt you gonna need it

 

[Himannv]

Excellent team from Sjor. Pat has more GOATs though so it's an interesting game.

 

[harms]

What a lovely 4-4-2 that would give any team in the world a run for their money. Pat's team has no weaknesses though (that CB pairing is exactly what you want against such fluid and aggressive front 2) and with the likes of Pelé and Best I know which side is more likely to produce a piece of magic to win it. Robson & Neeskens is also a crazy pairing that won't let anyone dominate the midfield, even though Xavi is the best midfielder on the pitch and generally Sjor has a bit of advantage in that area.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Love pats team as well but there are few things to nit pick:
a)Dont like Kenny up front, would be much better if both him and Pele were the other way around.
b)No issues with cm pairing, works lovely but prefer both with a sitting midfielder so you wont get the best od both. Not a major crime as its still a damn good midfield unit.
c)Regarding this specific matchup, reckon that backline could struggle against elite level pressing(which i think i have). Robbo for all his qualities also isnt in the most press resistent pool within greats.

 

[BorisDeLeFora]

Oh I do like Sjors team. Thought this would be easy.

 

[Gio]

Love pats team as well but there are few things to nit pick:
a)Dont like Kenny up front, would be much better if both him and Pele were the other way around.
b)No issues with cm pairing, works lovely but prefer both with a sitting midfielder so you wont get the best od both. Not a major crime as its still a damn good midfield unit.
c)Regarding this specific matchup, reckon that backline could struggle against elite level pressing(which i think i have). Robbo for all his qualities also isnt in the most press resistent pool within greats.

I do like this use of Dalglish. Not dissimilar to Tostao in 1970, a smooth back-to-goal gel linking in the cavalry. Can see that maximising the goal threat of Pele, Best and Hamrin.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I do like this use of Dalglish. Not dissimilar to Tostao in 1970, a smooth back-to-goal gel linking in the cavalry. Can see that maximising the goal threat of Pele, Best and Hamrin.

But Pat isnt using him like that nor do i think it would work tbh, Kenny was brilliant from what i saw but he lacked that elite finesse and guile you need to be a false 9 so he was perfect the way he was used, behind the striker letting him be physical while he intelligently picks up the pieces from behind.
Also, for all my "hate" towards the donkey, Jairzinho made that system work as he was the one making most of the runs of the ball and here you have two wingers that play with the ball more then without. Few drafts ago i needed a IF so was researching Hamrin just to see how often did he move inside without the ball and sadly at the time he didnt fit even though i desperately wanted him to as i really liked him in other segments.

 

[Physiocrat]

I do like this use of Dalglish. Not dissimilar to Tostao in 1970, a smooth back-to-goal gel linking in the cavalry. Can see that maximising the goal threat of Pele, Best and Hamrin.

Agreed. I think you would miss Pele's dribbling ability if he played at CF and whilst not ideal for Kenny he did have good hold up play.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Also, he comes right in the lap to one of the most physical centerbacks ever in Stam so i seriously doubt his hold up play up front would make any difference.

 

[Ecstatic]

Also, he comes right in the lap to one of the most physical centerbacks ever in Stam so i seriously doubt his hold up play up front would make any difference.

This raises the following question: will a player like Stam physically destroy Dalglish or struggle with a player whose centre of gravity is low?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Now imagine a player that plays in 40s and this is his career:

• starts back home in Argentina - wins everything including their version of CL which is Copa Libertadores with him as the best player
• moves to rival nations where they cant stand Argentina - becames a fan favorite and again wins the league as the best player in his only season there.
• joins the best league in the world bad in a shady deal so is fighting relegation - saves them with series of brilliant performances.
• moves to the best team in that league, wins everything
• has a fallout with the manager, moves to the local rivals, a nothing club and he pretty much puts them on the map by winning them the league for the first time in zillion years. Safe to say, as the best player.
• moves to a top club in lesser league, wins everything there and reaches CL final once again as the best player
• moves back home after robbing dumb chinese for insane amount of money and guess what, once again wins pretty much everything

Isnt the most flashiest but insane team player and that shows by the success of his teams. His biggest qualities are not seen in a muppet youtube vid but you wouldnt be able to tell given how insanely good it is. One of the most underrated players ever.

Mind you, he is no Pele but when you pick Tevez you almost just count on his grafting qualities as that will be given to him when in reality he was a insane footballer.

 

[Ecstatic]

Agreed. I think you would miss Pele's dribbling ability if he played at CF and whilst not ideal for Kenny he did have good hold up play.

Agree

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Absolutely lovely team from Sjor! Would love watching them play in real life. Perfect both tactics and in personnel.

Pat's spine is exceptionally talented, but I'd have preferred a holding/defensive DM to offset Passarella and either of Neeskens/Robson. Dalglish stands out like a eyesore. He was always good at carrying the ball and running from the deep, always hovering in the hold around the box behind the CF. I just don't see him holding up the ball, occupying defenders etc.

The quality of stars in Pat's attack gives him advantage of able to work in more magic moments esp in 1vs1 matchups between wingers vs fullbacks, but on other hand, I can see the overall seamless teamwork of Sjor's team yielding results too.

Mind says, vote Pat. Heart says, vote Sjor! Ah, this is a heartbreaker of a match.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

This raises the following question: will a player like Stam physically destroy Dalglish or struggle with a player whose centre of gravity is low?

vs peak Owen

vs peak Fenomeno

Both of which were much better dribblers and much faster then Kenny.

 

[Gio]

Also, he comes right in the lap to one of the most physical centerbacks ever in Stam so i seriously doubt his hold up play up front would make any difference.

Jaap's not getting his legs around Kenny's fat arse. Plenty have tried.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Jaap's not getting his legs around Kenny's fat arse. Plenty have tried.

No need, he just needs to tell him to feck off

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

Just can't see Xavi bossing a great midfield in that team. His idea of midfield play and when he was able to excel was so built around methodically building up play with relatively like-minded partners. Here he's surrounded by 100 mile per hour guys that were very often about verticality and not too careful in possession.

Not that he won't still be very good or that i'm saying he's entirely a one dimensional great for a heavy possession system as was sometimes a criticism of him wich imo went too far, but i do think he's far from the first choices that come to mind as sole creative presence or for a centre 2 in a high tempo 4-4-2 in general and think you're more likely to get the sort of level we saw from him in the early-mid 00s than the Pep years.

 

[Isotope]

Thought that Pat's would walk this; but Sjor's has a "perfect" 4-4-2 that's always hard to pull off and deserves extra credit.

 

[Himannv]

Went for Sjor because I like what he's done. Probably Pat's GOATs will take this in reality.

What was Xavi's role supposed to be?

 

[Pat_Mustard]

@Pat_Mustard good luck love, doubt you gonna need it

Thanks man, good luck to you too!

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I didnt expet to say this, but the most beautiful thing about your team is that defense @Pat_Mustard

 

[Jim Beam]

Told you bepo went under the radar. A nightmare to play against.

Damn unfortunate to go against that juggernaut though and his fullbacks are a bit of a downer. Xavi question is an interesting one, I always wanted to see him in more direct set up and think he would thrived in Sacchi tactical set up which is not far away. You do wonder if he will miss a bit of his one, two football here. With a forwards like Van Basten and Gullit it would be a bit easier, but still am thinking he would have no problem to go on with quick transition and would especially welcomed Robson and Neeskens agressivity on him. With all due respect to both of them he would thrived against their natural strengths. You just can't press Xavi.

Not much on Pat, would like a more natural DM only. As for Dalglish have to take Gio word for it as I watched him only about two or three times.

Not sure about voting. In alliance with both of them. Joking, closer to Pat because of those FB, but bepo team is a more intriguing one.

 

[harms]

Mind says, vote Pat. Heart says, vote Sjor! Ah, this is a heartbreaker of a match.

How elegantly put, I really like it.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

What was Xavi's role supposed to be?

He is the center-piece of the team, everyone runs he conducts. Just a classical playmaker role in a 442(your Giles, Scholes, Gerson etc.).

Just can't see Xavi bossing a great midfield in that team. His idea of midfield play and when he was able to excel was so built around methodically building up play with relatively like-minded partners. Here he's surrounded by 100 mile per hour guys that were very often about verticality and not too careful in possession.

Not that he won't still be very good or that i'm saying he's entirely a one dimensional great for a heavy possession system as was sometimes a criticism of him wich imo went too far, but i do think he's far from the first choices that come to mind as sole creative presence or for a centre 2 in a high tempo 4-4-2 in general and think you're more likely to get the sort of level we saw from him in the early-mid 00s than the Pep years.

Aragones team was fairly direct, i see no issues with Xavi being in one, in fact i always though out of the three(Busi, Iniesta) he was the one that would have zero issues. He isnt the only creative presence(Nedved? and to a certain point Tevez), while all others are runners, all of them were actually very good on the ball and all of them shined in possession based setups. Barca revival started with Davids.
But yeah, team is set up to win through the press not through actual ability on the ball(even though there is plenty of that). Probably not the smartest idea for drafts but thats the football i like.
Take City game from yesterday as example, they were lovely to watch on the ball but my God the quality of that press was just insane and so fun to watch, Gladbach couldnt hold the ball for 2 minutes around their box, football bloody hell!

 

[Ecstatic]

I didnt expet to say this, but the most beautiful thing about your team is that defense @Pat_Mustard

Like a philosopher likes to say, "I'm not sure if he should feel flattered or offended by this "

 

[Physiocrat]

This is closer than expected. Agree with most comments - Pat needs a DM and a proper striker. Sjor- not sure on Xavi - Aragones was way less direct than you are. Look at the final line-up from Euro 2008.

 

[Gio]

This is closer than expected. Agree with most comments - Pat needs a DM and a proper striker. Sjor- not sure on Xavi - Aragones was way less direct than you are. Look at the final line-up from Euro 2008.

To be fair that was only after Villa’s injury. Earlier in the tournament they played a 4-1-3-2. It was more vertical than the style of football that evolved into 2010 and 2012.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I didnt expet to say this, but the most beautiful thing about your team is that defense @Pat_Mustard

Like a philosopher likes to say, "I'm not sure if he should feel flattered or offended by this "

Definitely flattered rather than offended. I would have been happy sticking with my planned Vierchowod/Dario Pereyra CB partnership in fairness, but I got lucky in that my set up was an inadvertantly good environment for Passarella - relatively defensive LB, rugged stopper-type CB partner, no overly dominant DLP.

 

[Physiocrat]

To be fair that was only after Villa’s injury. Earlier in the tournament they played a 4-1-3-2. It was more vertical than the style of football that evolved into 2010 and 2012.

True but it was either Silva or Fabregas in for Villa. Which still leaves a midfield 4 of Xavi, Iniesta, Senna and Silva. Whilst it was not the bore fest of Xabi, Xavi, Busquets and Iniesta it is nothing like Nedved, Davids, Xavi and Luis Enrique.

An interesting question here would be who would be the perfect playmaker in a Duracell bunny pressing side which plays reasonably vertical football? I can't really think of a standout

 

[Šjor Bepo]

True but it was either Silva or Fabregas in for Villa. Which still leaves a midfield 4 of Xavi, Iniesta, Senna and Silva. Whilst it was not the bore fest of Xabi, Xavi, Busquets and Iniesta it is nothing like Nedved, Davids, Xavi and Luis Enrique.

An interesting question here would be who would be the perfect playmaker in a Duracell bunny pressing side which plays reasonably vertical football? I can't really think of a standout

personel is irrelevant, look at the Atletico lineup and they can easily outplay 90% of the teams with quality possession football, they dont because they are not set-up that way. That Spain was a fairly direct setup, still had possession touch in it but thats exactly how i see this team play, its not like this will be route 1 and Xavi acting as umpire at Roland Garros.

 

[Physiocrat]

personel is irrelevant, look at the Atletico lineup and they can easily outplay 90% of the teams with quality possession football, they dont because they are not set-up that way. That Spain was a fairly direct setup, still had possession touch in it but thats exactly how i see this team play, its not like this will be route 1 and Xavi acting as umpire at Roland Garros.

Personnel is relevant to how the team plays. I'm struggling to see Xavi thriving alongside the other players that's all. Also Atletico would definitely play there style in draft games given the quality of the opposition which really shines a light on the genuine strengths of their personnel.

 

[Jim Beam]

True but it was either Silva or Fabregas in for Villa. Which still leaves a midfield 4 of Xavi, Iniesta, Senna and Silva. Whilst it was not the bore fest of Xabi, Xavi, Busquets and Iniesta it is nothing like Nedved, Davids, Xavi and Luis Enrique.

An interesting question here would be who would be the perfect playmaker in a Duracell bunny pressing side which plays reasonably vertical football? I can't really think of a standout

Spain often had around 50 - 55% at that Euro. They really played some fast, direct football.

At Euro 2008 they had 33 passes per shot; at the last World Cup it was 44; at Euro 2012 it has been 58.

And Xavi roamed all over the place. I wouldn't change him for any playmaker really, but then again am subjective and Xavi goes in tier 2 in football history at least for me (like Cruyff company). The thing is also that I think he would make fun of any press as I already mentioned while that Pat midfield behind Pele is wired to do that.

I still have issues with bepo FB's though.

 

[Physiocrat]

Spain often had around 50 - 55% at that Euro. They really played some fast, direct football.

Fair enough, it still just doesn't feel 100% right. Will have to think more on it

 

[Jim Beam]

Fair enough, it still just doesn't feel 100% right. Will have to think more on it

Nah, it is a valid question and a thing to debate. I fully understand the doubts. But if you look Xavi game he was really a very incisive passer.


The other thing is that when Barca had 2 or 3 goals lead he would kill the game usually. He won't be able to do that here in such manner.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Personnel is relevant to how the team plays. I'm struggling to see Xavi thriving alongside the other players that's all. Also Atletico would definitely play there style in draft games given the quality of the opposition which really shines a light on the genuine strengths of their personnel.

Im talking about Atletico in real life not draft games, they are far better then 90% of the teams they face yet in 90% of the time they play the same way like they would play against elite teams. You can get any personel playing any type of football if they have the talent for it. To put Xavi just into tiki taka basket is actually an insult to the great man. Will you question Neeskens out of Total Football? You put Matthaus, Suarez and any of the greats in any setup and they are golden but Xavi - nah.
Curse of being part of one of the best teams ever that all of us actually witnessed.

 

[Physiocrat]

Im talking about Atletico in real life not draft games, they are far better then 90% of the teams they face yet in 90% of the time they play the same way like they would play against elite teams. You can get any personel playing any type of football if they have the talent for it. To put Xavi just into tiki taka basket is actually an insult to the great man. Will you question Neeskens out of Total Football? You put Matthaus, Suarez and any of the greats in any setup and they are golden but Xavi - nah.
Curse of being part of one of the best teams ever that all of us actually witnessed.

I have been guilty with that with Xavi in the past and Iniesta for that matter. It just seems that this team is too dissimilar in the pace and directness than ones he has been in before. Now I could be wrong and have to think more about it. One possible strange quibble is that Xavi always worked with a DM behind him whereas Davids liked to get about the pitch in ways Busquets etc did not. Is it a case with this side that one goes and one stays and they mix it up as they see fit?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Feels very harsh on Bepo, but what can you do - I just don't see Mustard losing this one, there's too much quality.

Would not swap Pelé and KKK, btw. The latter is a plausible choice up front given the setup and the available personnel. He probably won't be come the next stage, though.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@Physiocrat
Watch this and tell me if you still have the same concerns.

As for a DM thing, its a high line high press for constant 90 minutes, would expect that pitch to be very small as the team would always be compact. Regarding the actual midfield partnership, at that Euro he was partnered by Senna and while he didnt press as much as Davids he was also not as mobile and good in defensive recoveries but yeah, they played without a holding midfielder. Until the Villa injury it was a very much 442 setup not to dissimilar to this.