2021Sheep Draft SF - Pat_Mustard vs. Enigma_87/King Kendrick

[Michaelf7777777]

Pat_Mustard

Formation: 4-3-3

The injury round robbed us of the greatest player in the draft in Pele but the subsequent reinforcement round was kind to my squad, with Djalma Santos, Stanley Matthews and Luis Suarez Miramontes substantially improving the quality and balance of my XI. It's an odd situation to contemplate, as I'd clearly vastly prefer to have Pele available, but this is probably the first match of the draft where I'm more or less happy with the balance of the team, after two rounds of the ultimate drafter's luxury of trying to balance the conflicting requirements of accomodating various positional greats.

Daniel Passarella marshals a strong defence, and with two defensively excellent FBs, a rugged, resolute stopper alongside him and a three-man midfield ahead of him, he'll have the freedom to step into midfield and even gallop forward when the occasion presents itself. In terms of supporting the attack, I see our backline operating somewhat similarly to the great France 98 defence. Gio made a great post on that dynamic in a previous draft that I'll try to dig out during the match thread, but effectively all of Lizarazu-Desailly-Blanc-Thuram would burst forward from time to time, with the others adjusting their role accordingly. As the last full match I recall watching of his was an appearance at RB for Sampdoria where his crossing was generally Smalling-standard, Vierchowod can stay in defence full-time however .

The addition of an all-time great DLP in Luis Suarez should address the questions from my previous matches about the balance of my midfield. Flanked by the B2B powerhouses Robson and Neeskens, his positional nous and workrate will provide them with more freedom to support the attack and maximise their considerable goal threat, and moreover his playmaking qualities will greatly enhance the quality of our build up play. As a specialist creator with superlative dribbling ability, Matthews coming into the team for Hamrin seems a huge stylistic upgrade in terms of maximising Kocsis' goalscoring threat, as well as providing space for the onrushing B2B players. This could be a funny and awkward debate as I've generally defended the merits of more recent FBs while Enigma has strongly favoured the classical legends, but Matthews should have the beating of Roberto Carlos fairly often in 1v1s, and my right wing looks well-poised for him with arguably the GOAT defensive RB behind him, and Neeskens as the RCM who will provide a substantial level of support for him in both the attacking and defensive phases. Cannavaro is a tough loss for Enigma/KK in this match; Baresi and Thuram/Perfumo look more than strong enough in most contexts but I'm not sure that either possess that elite-level aerial ability that you'd ideally want to deal with probably the most prolific goalscorer from headers in history, who is partnered with one of the greatest pure creative wingers on the right wing and an all-around genius on the left wing in Best.

Enigma_87/King Kendrick

Formation: 4-4-2
Style: High energy, press and push the opposition outside our area and limit the time and opportunities on the ball.

Defence:
Marshaled by no other than the great Franco Baresi we have two full backs that are able to contribute going forward in Dani Alves and Roberto Carlos. Carlos and Alves are similar in their style - have great impact going forward, fast and have the ability to recover position quickly when we lose the ball. Nimble and strong with also a low center of gravity they are good options to face a agile and tricky wingers in the mould of Matthews and Best. Baresi and Thuram are the central pair, that compliments very well in terms of ability in the air and also on the deck. Thuram is a strong, physical defender who is also very fast and quite suitable counter of Kocsis, whilst Baresi as the best pure defender the game has ever seen sweeps behind. Both our full backs will get plenty of support from their hard working wingers in Stoichkov and Figo to prevent Pat's main weapons on the wings get numerical advantage. And as a last upgrade in the previous round we got the best sweeper keeper in history to add to our theme in Neuer.

Midfield:
Voronin comes to the fore to form a impeccable central unit alongside Matthaus, that is full of energy, steel and defensive anchor to allow Zico to run the game and cover the space when we're on the backfoot. Matthaus is at the heart of the midfield with his great motor and in classic B2B role, able to impact both phases of the play. Zico spearheads the midfield in his natural 10/9.5 role, offering playmaking, creativity and ability to score ton of goals. As the whole team, he will also be engaged in the press, being our first line of defence and poking the ball out and forcing opposition defenders into mistake.

Attack:
Zico and Law are a natural pair in terms of utilizing each other's strengths. Law is a complete forward with a great off the ball movement that can exploit Zico's creativity and be at the end of the passes, whilst he will also open up spaces for Zico to exploit his goalscoring capabilities.

On the flanks we have two full backs that are one of the best in their offensive role, alongside wingers that can be dangerous both cutting in or staying wide. Matthews and Best are not the most industrious wingers so we might exploit some 2 on 1 situations when in transition.

 

[Michaelf7777777]

@Pat_Mustard @Enigma_87 @King Kendrick

 

[Synco]

Nice matchup again. Really enjoying a true all-timers draft after a longer time @Michaelf7777777.

Pat's team looks like a very well-designed 4-3-3 with a DLP. No questions at first sight. Lots to like about Enigma's/KK's team as well, but I'd have a few questions/remarks there:

1. The graphic makes it look like Stoichkov plays LW in a 4-4-2-ish formation. Can you say a little more about his role, his partnership with Carlos, and why you think he's a good fit?

2. With Carlos & Alves at FB, a midfield two will have a lot to do helping to cover wide areas to give them freedom to attack. Maybe that will limit Matthäus' ability to impose himself offensively a bit?

3. Finally, about Best:

Matthews and Best are not the most industrious wingers so we might exploit some 2 on 1 situations when in transition.

I've not seen terribly much of him, so this is just an incomplete impression. But he showed commendable defensive/pressing work there. (Talking about N.I., not United.) Would be interested in everyone's opinion about that.

@Enigma_87 @King Kendrick

 

[Enigma_87]

Nice matchup again. Really enjoying a true all-timers draft after a longer time @Michaelf7777777. (If my holey head remembers correctly, that is).

Pat's team looks like a very well-designed 4-3-3 with a DLP. No questions at first sight. Lots to like about Enigma's/KK's team as well, but I'd have a few questions/remarks there:

1. The graphic makes it look like Stoichkov plays LW in a 4-4-2-ish formation. Can you say a little more about his role, his partnership with Carlos, and why you think he's a good fit?

I think Carlos/Stoichkov will be a really nice fit in real life too. An industrious winger who is able to provide cover for Carlos in the defensive phase compiled with the ability to cut in when Bobby overlaps.

Especially in attack it would be something to see, as it allows Stoichkov to attack the box or generally double on the full back. We're also playing on the front foot so this makes Bobby one of the most suitable partners out wide, who is also capable of quickly regain his position in transition.

2. With Carlos & Alves at FB, a midfield two will have a lot to do helping to cover wide areas to give them freedom to attack. Maybe that will limit Matthäus' ability to impose himself offensively a bit?

TBH, most of the time I'd agree with this double roles that some greats have to play in this fantasy matches and usually they are depicted as superhumans by the respective managers. But then again, this is Matthaus that we are talking about:
Just as an example against none other than Maradona, contributing heavily in defence yet able to offer in attack. He has scored 3 goals so not like isolated occasion either.

Now I'm aware that this is completely different matchup, but showcases the motor that Matthaus has and that even one of the greatest in history he's perfectly able to stamp his authority on the game in both phases.

We all know that of course, but the idea of having 2 attacking full backs is also securing both Matthaus and Voronin as a midfield duo that can offer the solid base and ability to cover wide if needed. Voronin too is someone who is able to both cover wide and his height is useful to act as an additional defender in the box(something that Pat implied in terms of crosses coming in the box).

On the plus size we don't have a designated #10 to worry about in the opposition, hence as said it will be different mechanics, but Zico will be the main conductor in the team, so Matthaus doesn't have to be also the playmaker that he played at Inter in some cases. In attack he will have an auxiliary role that IMO suits his natural style and the game specifics at hand.

3. Finally, about Best:

I've not seen terribly much of him, so this is just an incomplete impression. But he showed commendable defensive/pressing work there. (Talking about N.I., not United.) Would be interested in everyone's opinion about that.

@Enigma_87 @King Kendrick

IMO it always has been on the fence on that one. He's not a complete passenger and I wasn't implying that, but he also won't track back on every occasion to cover for Camacho, at least this is definitely not the impression of him that I got. He can press high and be a first line of defence, but in a 4-3-3(where he has to have a significant presence in attack) and IMO in the current game it would be a tough ask for him to constantly cover for his full back. I don't think Pat would ask him to do so either way, this role most likely would be occupied by one of the CM's on the side - Neeskens or Robson.

For Matthews, the footage I've seen is when he was in his 30's and deep 30's(not sure if there is something else on either way). He had an impressive physique for that age and era and was a resilient dribbler. In the defensive phase he wasn't as bad as Garrincha but I haven't really been impressed on that front. He used to take that time off the ball to save some breath to go on a run or use conserve his energy for his faints and shoulder drops when on the ball.

Finally can't say anything bad about Pat's side either, a classic 4-3-3 with a DLP in it and a beautiful team altogether. I think we do have an advantage in this particular set up with a DLP just tactically, because Zico would be a decisive figure between the lines and would IMO exploit a DLP organized side compared to a designated anchor/DM to constantly hassle him.

 

[harms]

I fell in love with Enigma’s team immediately once I saw it, but Pat’s isn’t any worse — and that’s after losing fecking Pelé of all players.

I’ll have to think about it.

That said, calling Best not industrious is far from fair. He loved to get his hands (shorts?) dirty.

Having Kocsis alone against such a pairing doesn’t look as promising, but the unpredictability of Robson’s or Neeskens’ runs adds quite a lot of potential goal threats, and tactically, I think, Pat is well-equipped to push on the weakest* spot in Enigma’s team — his fullbacks. On the other hand, Enigma has a lot of options to cover that without losing too much offensively...

* relatively, as the rest is just perfect.

 

[harms]

Any memorable Zico/Passarella encounters? I reckon they should’ve played against each other relatively often and close to their respective peaks as well.

 

[Enigma_87]

Best of luck @Pat_Mustard , as I already said - beautiful team!

Couple of points on your write up:

This could be a funny and awkward debate as I've generally defended the merits of more recent FBs while Enigma has strongly favoured the classical legends, but Matthews should have the beating of Roberto Carlos fairly often in 1v1s, and my right wing looks well-poised for him with arguably the GOAT defensive RB behind him, and Neeskens as the RCM who will provide a substantial level of support for him in both the attacking and defensive phases.

I think both Dani Alves and Bobby Carlos has proven their worth in all time sense and it's not only the attacking output they generated as in terms of modern day football they always had to contribute in both phases considering how tactically advanced the football developed during the time they played. To me the argument goes both ways (modern/oldies) and I rate some of the oldies more compared to some of the more recent ones, but Bobby Carlos is someone I'd always rated top 5-6ish all time in his position and he's a truly elite one, compared to the general quality of some recent fullbacks compared to their older counterparts.

Your right side looks very good of course, but same goes for our left. Stoichkov has the work rate to offer support in defence, whilst Voronin also played as a side midfielder and has the ability to cover for Neeskens for example or double the side when called upon.

Cannavaro is a tough loss for Enigma/KK in this match; Baresi and Thuram/Perfumo look more than strong enough in most contexts but I'm not sure that either possess that elite-level aerial ability that you'd ideally want to deal with probably the most prolific goalscorer from headers in history, who is partnered with one of the greatest pure creative wingers on the right wing and an all-around genius on the left wing in Best.

Indeed Canna was a big loss, considering we intended to play 5-3-2 and a more counter attacking setup. However considering we were able to get both Voronin and Neuer and how versatile our players are we could completely change the approach and play a more aggressive set up on the front foot. This means we can push Kocsis away from our box and also generally do not succumb to pressure or make it a crossing game in our half.

In terms of dealing with crosses, Thuram is IMO perfectly suited for that both in terms of frame, heading ability and ability to position himself. On that front Baresi isn't a pushover either. Kocsis is a great header of the ball but he's the type that doesn't rely on strong physique and ability to brush defenders in the box. Baresi is not the tallest but defensively no pushover in the air. In terms of reading of the game, positioning and general defensive ability he's the GOAT for me and even if Kocsis is one of the greatest in that respect I can see even Baresi alone can give him a proper game even in that isolated aspect of the game.

To reiterate both Voronin and Neuer are a huge boost in dealing with crosses and occupying the sweetspots when crosses do come in.

 

[Synco]

He's not a complete passenger and I wasn't implying that, but he also won't track back on every occasion to cover for Camacho, at least this is definitely not the impression of him that I got. (...) IMO in the current game it would be a tough ask for him to constantly cover for his full back.

It's a bit like the recent Garrincha*/defense and Djalma/offense discussions: How much of a certain profile is down to the tactics of that time, how much to major characteristics of the player?

I tend to give historic offensive players the benefit of the doubt when they show decent to good effort against the ball, even if it's not consistent. To me it indicates that - given modern fitness & tactical standards - they could at least play their part against the ball in a modern system. Same with historic defensive players who have the necessary abilities for the modern buildup/attacking game. But it's speculative and surely a matter of opinion.

(* btw, in a second game from 1962 I'm watching, he's participating in defense again so far.)

 

[Enigma_87]

I fell in love with Enigma’s team immediately once I saw it, but Pat’s isn’t any worse — and that’s after losing fecking Pelé of all players.

I’ll have to think about it.

That said, calling Best not industrious is far from fair. He loved to get his hands (shorts?) dirty.

Having Kocsis alone against such a pairing doesn’t look as promising, but the unpredictability of Robson’s or Neeskens’ runs adds quite a lot of potential goal threats, and tactically, I think, Pat is well-equipped to push on the weakest* spot in Enigma’s team — his fullbacks. On the other hand, Enigma has a lot of options to cover that without losing too much offensively...

* relatively, as the rest is just perfect.

I tried to explain above what I meant by that, as considering the shape of Pat's team I don't expect him to be tasked with heavy defensive duties either as that support is more likely going to come from the side midfielder.

To me Best used his mentality in the attacking third rather than tracking back. He would attack the full back or put effort when the ball is near his zone both on and off the ball, but to me I don't see him tracking back a full back all the way to the corner flag.

Any memorable Zico/Passarella encounters? I reckon they should’ve played against each other relatively often and close to their respective peaks as well.

I did check that and they played surprisingly low amount of times.

just 7 games and 2 of them they were about 20mins on the pitch together.

 

[harms]

Your right side looks very good of course, but same goes for our left. Stoichkov has the work rate to offer support in defence, whilst Voronin also played as a side midfielder and has the ability to cover for Neeskens for example or double the side when called upon.

Not sure if he did to be honest, not that he won’t do what you ask of him — his weird 1965/66’s role that he partly played in the World Cup seems very apt here (some kind of a hybrid DM/free defender when he filled any gap in Soviet RB-SW-LB defense, be it centrally or on any wing, to complete a back 4 in a defensive phase). Especially since he casually switched to play as an expansive B2B (like against Italy) or as a dedicated marker (Portugal) during the same time, so it’s not like it’s different career versions of the same player.

 

[Enigma_87]

It's a bit like the recent Garrincha*/defense and Djalma/offense discussions: How much of a certain profile is down to the tactics of that time, how much to major characteristics of the player?

I tend to give historic offensive players the benefit of the doubt when they show decent to good effort against the ball, even if it's not consistent. To me it indicates that - given modern fitness & tactical standards - they could at least play their part against the ball in a modern system. Same with historic defensive players who have the necessary abilities for the modern buildup/attacking game. But it's speculative and surely a matter of opinion.

(* btw, in a second game from 1962 I'm watching, he's participating in defense again so far.)

I think I had some debate regarding Hamrin a while ago too. Personal impression from games I've seen they put some effort and in some cases even Hamrin impressed me in some not. It depends on the consistency of the effort put in for me and whilst you are right about modern fitness and tactics there is also a question of how players like Garrincha and Best will develop their personality in modern game.

It goes both ways really and even if modern tactics has them adjust to the more effort they have to put in you also have to factor in they would be absolutely stars in todays game considering their personalities, and not always they will put 100% to go on with their defensive duties. Especially Garrincha, give him the same resources, booze and birds I'm not sure how he will develop his overall physical shape 24x7 playing Wednesday/Saturday

For Mane btw from memory the best work rate I've seen him put was the game against France in 58', you can check that one. Think that was one of the game that he was a lot more engaged in the defensive phase.

 

[Enigma_87]

Not sure if he did to be honest, not that he won’t do what you ask of him — his weird 1965/66’s role that he partly played in the World Cup seems very apt here (some kind of a hybrid DM/free defender when he filled any gap in Soviet RB-SW-LB defense, be it centrally or on any wing, to complete a back 4 in a defensive phase). Especially since he casually switched to play as an expansive B2B (like against Italy) or as a dedicated marker (Portugal) during the same time, so it’s not like it’s different career versions of the same player.

Aye this is exactly what I mean. I've seen him a lot on the sides in some games from your compilations. Not sure if you can call it nominally a side midfielder, but he definitely wasn't the orthodox anchor drop to CB or B2B role that we see with central players in similar role.

 

[Synco]

It depends on the consistency of the effort put in for me and whilst you are right about modern fitness and tactics there is also a question of how players like Garrincha and Best will develop their personality in modern game.

With both I've seen the right team mentality against the ball in the limited footage I've watched (era adjusted). Best quite the grafter, actually. Need to see more, of course.

And as I indicated, I see consistency as a bit of an unfair criterion for 50s/60s players.

Anyway, think we've covered the topic well enough.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

The biggest question mark is how good defensivelly was Zico, if he fits then its curtains for poor mustard even though Carlos is an awful fit for enigma side and he is trying to oversell Matthaus.

 

[Enigma_87]

The biggest question mark is how good defensivelly was Zico, if he fits then its curtains for poor mustard even though Carlos is an awful fit for enigma side and he is trying to oversell Matthaus.

A good compilation of him (all touches) against Germany. You can see him around 2:41 tracking back and tackling opposition player. Even from the first 1-2 mins you can see him pretty engaged, intercepting players and covering space.

4:31 also you can see him throwing himself into a challenge and generally during the whole clip he's persistent in his defensive game.

Even @10min end of the game he was sprinting to cover space and offer support to midfield. My impression of Zico is always him being a fighter and not being afraid to stick in, despite not having a significant physical presence.

When it comes to technically and stilistically I think it's no brainer whether he fits

 

[Šjor Bepo]

When it comes to technically and stilistically I think it's no brainer whether he fits

Offensive yes, my question marks are purely on the defensive front as his position is almost key for a high press that you guys set up to play.
Will check few vids but hopefully others that watched him more also respond to this.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

That is not a 442 in my eyes with Stoichkov there. Not taking anything away from the awesome team though.

Likewise for Pat. Luis Suarez was a smart move. Not going for the obvious DM is a classic Pat move. Well played sir.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Giving this to Enigma though. Best and Matthews against those wing backs seems tasty but I am not a fan of Kocsis as a line striker.

 

[Ecstatic]

A good compilation of him (all touches) against Germany. You can see him around 2:41 tracking back and tackling opposition player. Even from the first 1-2 mins you can see him pretty engaged, intercepting players and covering space.

4:31 also you can see him throwing himself into a challenge and generally during the whole clip he's persistent in his defensive game.

Even @10min end of the game he was sprinting to cover space and offer support to midfield. My impression of Zico is always him being a fighter and not being afraid to stick in, despite not having a significant physical presence.

When it comes to technically and stilistically I think it's no brainer whether he fits

Yeah, he has a great work rate. The interesting thing about these GOATS such as Zico, Maradona, Platini is they also have an authentic fighting spirit.

A player like the German Draxler has 15% of the talent of Zico and 5% of his fighting spirit.

 

[Ecstatic]

With both I've seen the right team mentality against the ball in the limited footage I've watched (era adjusted). Best quite the grafter, actually. Need to see more, of course.

And as I indicated, I see consistency as a bit of an unfair criterion for 50s/60s players.

Anyway, think we've covered the topic well enough.

Interesting. Do you mean players of the 50s and 60s tend to be underrated in these drafts?

 

[Synco]

Interesting. Do you mean players of the 50s and 60s tend to be underrated in these drafts?

Not as such, the discussion was about defensive contribution compared to modern day players.

 

[Ecstatic]

That is not a 442 in my eyes with Stoichkov there. Not taking anything away from the awesome team though.

Likewise for Pat. Luis Suarez was a smart move. Not going for the obvious DM is a classic Pat move. Well played sir.

I wasn't aware of this Pat move. Creative tactical choice that suggest he wants a high pressing

 

[Ecstatic]

Nice confrontation. Hope Pat will be in a position to participate in the discussion.

 

[Gio]

Fascinating tie this one. I'd say Enigma/Kendrick pack a bit more star power into their XI - and look imposing in full flow - while Pat counters that well and looks tactically a little cleaner.

My only concern here is Stoichkov and Figo are 4-3-3 men, or, failing that, roaming forwards. Not sure they provide the necessary balance in a 4-4-2. Figo probably closest, but you'd like to counter-weight that on the other flank with a more defensive operator. For Pat, Suarez is a nice pick in freeing up Robson and Neeskens, particularly on the transition, and I can see his rangy delivery, along with Passarella's, releasing those wingers into space quite dangerously.

 

[Enigma_87]

Yeah, he has a great work rate. The interesting thing about these GOATS such as Zico, Maradona, Platini is they also have an authentic fighting spirit.

A player like the German Draxler has 15% of the talent of Zico and 5% of his fighting spirit.

aye, Pele also can be added to the list. I’ve recently watched some games of Platini and was impressed with his overall impact in both phases and work rate. Generally my impressing from the 80s is that usually all players contributed defensively it was a more cagey era and more defensive minded overall in most top leagues.

Fascinating tie this one. I'd say Enigma/Kendrick pack a bit more star power into their XI - and look imposing in full flow - while Pat counters that well and looks tactically a little cleaner.

My only concern here is Stoichkov and Figo are 4-3-3 men, or, failing that, roaming forwards. Not sure they provide the necessary balance in a 4-4-2. Figo probably closest, but you'd like to counter-weight that on the other flank with a more defensive operator. For Pat, Suarez is a nice pick in freeing up Robson and Neeskens, particularly on the transition, and I can see his rangy delivery, along with Passarella's, releasing those wingers into space quite dangerously.

Sure it’s more adventurous approach compared to a more defensively minded 4-4-2, but IMO all our players are suited to the task from the keeper till Law. Two defensively sound central midfielders and industrial wingers should bring the overall balance, whilst we have more firepower in front of the goal to win the tie. A more adventurous approach is IMO also a good fit to counter Pat’s side as it can isolate Kocsis up front and limit the opportunities his wingers will have in terms of time on the ball.

 

[Ecstatic]

Not as such, the discussion was about
defensive contribution compared to modern day players.

The following players are defensive ones of the 50s. The issue is that old players require more efforts for those who want to understand their style of play


Billy Wright (Wolvehampton, England)
Robert Jonquet (Reims, France)
Ernest Happel (Rapid Vienna, Austria)
Ivan Horvat (Dinamo Zagreb, Frankfurt, Yugoslavia)
Josef Posipal (Hamburger, West Germany)
Alexandru Apolzan (Steua Bucharest, Romania)
Jozsef Bozsik (Kispest Honved, Hungary)
Ernst Ocwirk (Austria Wienna, Austria)
Gerhard Hanappi (Rapid Wienna, Austria)
Nestor Rossi (Millonarios, Argentina)
Zlatko Cajkovski (Partizan Belgrade, Yugoslavia)
Bauer (Sao Paulo, Brazil)
Axel Pilmark (Bologna, Denmark)
VIctor Mees (Royal Antwerp, Belgium)
Jimmy Dickinson (Portsmouth, England)
Stefan Bozhkov (CSKA Sofia, Bulgaria)
Sergio Cervato (Fiorentina, Italy)
Orvar Bergmark (Orebro, Sweden)
Joan Segarra (Barcelona, Spain)
Herbert Erhadt (SPvgg Furt)
Guillermo Delgado (Alianza Lima, Peru)
Cor Van De Hart (Lille, Netherlands)
Pedro Dellacha (Racing Club, Argentina)
Ake Johansson (Norkopping, Sweden)
Horst Szymaniak (Wuppertaler, Germany)
Gerhard Hanappi (Rapid Wienna, Austria)
Karl Koller (First Wienna, Austria)
Horst Eckel (Kaiserslautern, West Germany)

 

[Synco]

The following players are defensive ones of the 50s. The issue is that old players require more efforts for those who want to understand their style of play

Ah no, I didn't make myself clear enough.

The topic was defensive effort of 50s/60s attacking players. Enigma said he judges compability of old attacking players with modern defensive tactics on the consistency of their defensive efforts. I said consistency may not be a fair criterion, as consistently keeping compactness wasn't expected as much from them compared to todays attacking players. For tactical and probably also physical reasons.

Of course there are guys like Zagallo and Seeler who are beyond any doubt, but still.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Good luck @Enigma_87 and @King Kendrick !

Nice matchup again. Really enjoying a true all-timers draft after a longer time @Michaelf7777777.

Pat's team looks like a very well-designed 4-3-3 with a DLP. No questions at first sight. Lots to like about Enigma's/KK's team as well, but I'd have a few questions/remarks there:

1. The graphic makes it look like Stoichkov plays LW in a 4-4-2-ish formation. Can you say a little more about his role, his partnership with Carlos, and why you think he's a good fit?

2. With Carlos & Alves at FB, a midfield two will have a lot to do helping to cover wide areas to give them freedom to attack. Maybe that will limit Matthäus' ability to impose himself offensively a bit?

3. Finally, about Best:

I've not seen terribly much of him, so this is just an incomplete impression. But he showed commendable defensive/pressing work there. (Talking about N.I., not United.) Would be interested in everyone's opinion about that.

@Enigma_87 @King Kendrick

Cheers Synco. I'm in complete agreement with you about Best and I'll start with that point as a) there's not exactly many flaws to point out in the opposition team and b) it's become a minor and sporadic crusade for me to defend Best's professionalism and workrate in his earlier career. If anyone possibly gets a sense of déjà vu here I'm pulling an old post from a previous match against Enigma and adding a bit to it

Best is actually the least of my worries. He's typecast as a lazy bastard but it just wasn't true before his career went off the rails. I posted these quotes in a previous match:

Tackling, another of Best's strengths, came naturally.

That was a matter of pride. Sir Matt always said that I was probably the best tackler at the club, and that was a hell of a compliment.I actually enjoyed the physical side of it. I had people trying to kick me, and if they took the ball away from me it was an insult. I wanted it back. I remember once we played at Birmingham, and Noel Cantwell was captain at the time. It was a really muddy day, and towards the end of the game Noel made a run down the left, someone knocked the ball off to their right-winger, and Noel was caught out of position, with no hope of getting back. 'George' he said 'do you think you can get there?' I thought: I'll get back alright. I was a skinny eighteen year old kid, in six inches of mud, but I chased this winger for fifty or sixty yards and tackled him to get the ball out for a throw-in. I felt so chuffed. I felt like Superman when I got up after the tackle. I got him.

There's more quotes from that book that I'll try to dig out about Best finishing near the top of Utd's fitness tests in both long distance runs and sprints. I wish to feck I could find the video (I'm sure I posted it before but can't find it), but there was extended highlights of some random Utd match from the 60s and the most notable thing was that Best's first 2 or 3 successful actions were all in the defensive phase.*

*Still can't find those match highlights after looking for ages, so I assume they've been wiped from Youtube, but this will somewhat suffice as a substitute. I haven't even watched it all, but by my reckoning that's 3 defensive actions in the first 3 minutes of a 22 minute match highlight video:


1:25: tackle to start an attack in the final third
2:22: beats a somewhat glacial WBA defender to a loose pass before the lovely nutmeg and probably bobble-induced errant cross
3:00: another interception, another attack generated after some gorgeous footwork

As far as those quotes on his fitness test performances:

I was naturally quick. In the training sprints, over ten or fifteen yards, the only one that could ever beat me was Bobby (Charlton)...Pre-season training was always hard work, but I actually enjoyed it. I enjoyed the competition. Whether it was cross-country or out on the pitch, I wanted to be the best. Over a short distance, Bobby Charlton was always red hot. Over the longer runs, the four or five miles cross-country, John Fitzpatrick was the only one who could ever beat me. I can still remember, when we used to turn right out of The Cliff, about half a dozen of the boys turned left and used to hide behind the bushes at the top of the final run-in. That really used to piss me off. We had gone all the way round, and they would join in as we came to the end of it. Mind you, needless to say not many of them made it.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Enigma_87 why a 4-4-2 rather than a 4-2-3-1?

This is a tough one. Initially voted Enigma, but a couple of beers later, Pat's team looks more likely to edge it. Damn it. Let's see how this match looks after next pint.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

That is not a 442 in my eyes with Stoichkov there. Not taking anything away from the awesome team though.

Likewise for Pat. Luis Suarez was a smart move. Not going for the obvious DM is a classic Pat move. Well played sir.

Thanks mate, and of course no worries about voting for the opposition.

I wasn't aware of this Pat move. Creative tactical choice that suggest he wants a high pressing

I struggle to articulate my position on this properly but basically I feel we tend to be a bit too proscriptive about the players who can perform that screening role in front of the defence. I recall arguing quite vigorously that Souness could do it, as I've watched him basically playing that role, whereas someone like Stielike would be accepted without question there even though some of the best performances I've seen from him have looked more B2B in nature to me. I'm not sure that Roy Keane would be that well-received in a holding midfielder role, yet one of his best performances was doing just that in the FA Cup Final 1996. I haven't watched his all-touches video for ages and I'm sure he broke forward a bit, but I do think from memory that he basically played as a DM.

Keane was playing a slightly different role than usual. Ferguson originally considered playing 3-5-2 to match Liverpool but after a meeting with Schmeichel, the back four, Keane and Cantona, he was dissuaded. Cantona then suggested sitting Keane in front of the back four in a 4-1-3-1-1. The result was a quite awesome performance. There has always been a simplistic perception of Keane as a licensed thug. He was reasonably decisive in the tackle, for sure, and on this day he harassed Liverpool to within an inch of their sanity, but an equal if not bigger strength was his forensic reading of games and higher state of concentration. For Keane football was like chess-boxing, placing equal, extreme demands on brain and brawn.

It was one of Keane’s finest performances, probably second only to his career-defining effort against Juventus three years later. He was aided by Ferguson’s decision to tuck Beckham and Giggs inside when United didn’t have the ball, and particularly by the diligence of his trusted lieutenant Butt, but really this was all about Keane. He got Fowler, McManaman, Collymore and Redknapp in an armlock.

“Neutrals said the 1996 Cup final was a bore,” sniffed Keane in his first autobiography. “Not if you were playing. It was grim all right, demanding every ounce of concentration, every last grasp of breath. My job was to anchor midfield, to deny Liverpool time and space, to break up their rhythm, basically to destroy any notions they might have had about passing us to defeat. There’s a lot of ground to cover at Wembley, but I covered it, got my tackles in, delivered the message: this is going to be hard work, boys, fecking hard work. Along with Nicky Butt I won the midfield battle. Nicky was a tough lad and an ideal partner for this kind of operation.”

I suspect I've gone off on a bizarre tangent here, so to get back to the match - we've both praised Zico to the high heavens in the Match Compilation thread in the last week or two, but it's another quibble of mine on this issue that a DLP is 1) automatically seen as a defensive liability (Suarez was reasonably strong in this regard on his own merits) and 2) seen as being isolated in a 1v1 battle vs a great #10 despite having 2 B2B monsters alongside him. My basic idea here is that if Enigma is attacking down his left wing, for instance, Neeskens will be pulled to my team's right wing, but Robson will be tucking in closer to Suarez to support him if and when play is switched to the centre.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

@Enigma_87 why a 4-4-2 rather than a 4-2-3-1?

This is a tough one. Initially voted Enigma, but a couple of beers later, Pat's team looks more likely to edge it. Damn it. Let's see how this match looks after next pint.

Embrace that thought process and drink up quickly and to excess!

 

[Pat_Mustard]

The biggest question mark is how good defensivelly was Zico, if he fits then its curtains for poor mustard even though Carlos is an awful fit for enigma side and he is trying to oversell Matthaus.

I think the sun shines out of Zico's arse, but he's generally struck me as being fairly unremarkable for his role and era defensively - not lazy, not massively impressive either. No better than Baggio for instance, and maybe not as good, whereas Baggio is generally seen as being shite off the ball despite doing at least his bit in Trapattoni teams. Some of that was a question of tactics - in one match I recall him doing very little in the early phases when he was effectively playing as an attacker, then putting in some solid graft later on when he dropped deeper as Flamengo were trying to preserve a lead and close out a match. Some of it is a question of physique and natural aptitude too, where I think he falls short. In fairness I don't think it's a death knell for Enigma's tactics here as the rest of his attackers are good to exceptional in terms of workrate, and most systems can support one player contributing a bit less out of possession, but I personally don't remotely see him as some seamless, Blokhin-style fit in terms of defensive workrate in a pressing system. Probably only fair to leave this specific issue to the neutrals and tag in fellow Zico diehards @harms and @Gio , as workrate is something that generally needs to be viewed through multiple eyes in mulitiple matches unless it's some mentalist Tevez type of player.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Fascinating tie this one. I'd say Enigma/Kendrick pack a bit more star power into their XI - and look imposing in full flow - while Pat counters that well and looks tactically a little cleaner.

My only concern here is Stoichkov and Figo are 4-3-3 men, or, failing that, roaming forwards. Not sure they provide the necessary balance in a 4-4-2. Figo probably closest, but you'd like to counter-weight that on the other flank with a more defensive operator. For Pat, Suarez is a nice pick in freeing up Robson and Neeskens, particularly on the transition, and I can see his rangy delivery, along with Passarella's, releasing those wingers into space quite dangerously.

For me, on a good day Stoichkov easily has the work-rate to pull off the 4-4-2 gig, but it can't help but blunt his contribution in the final third, without a more midfielder-y counterbalance on the other flank. The opposition has 4-2-3-1 written all over it for me, but I suspect that 1) Enigma is tiring of his reputation with that formation and 2) they didn't want to be seen as muzzling Matthaus too much.

I'm not generally a fan of formation top trumps, but I don't think it's controversial to say that 4-3-3 usurped 4-4-2 at the highest level in the early 2000s for a reason. The more I look at it, the less I'm convinced that Stoichkov/Zico/Figo have the instincts to counter our extra man in central midfield. Too forward-orientated, and whereas Matthaus might make it work against most opponents, he's not doing that against a midfield of Robson/Suarez/Neeskens.

 

[Himannv]

I like the 4-4-2 and it's certainly more entertaining. In the games I've watched of his, I don't think Zico is a bad fit at all in a pressing system. I think perhaps the concern is that he normally operates a bit deeper, hence perhaps "high press" is pushing it.

I think Stoichkov and peak Figo are good fits as well. I like Pat's team as well though although I don't like Kocsis up there by himself.

Question to both @Pat_Mustard and @Enigma_87 / @King Kendrick how do you guys see this game playing out? What will your teams operate like in offensive phases? How much of the ball do you expect?

 

[Enigma_87]

I like the 4-4-2 and it's certainly more entertaining. In the games I've watched of his, I don't think Zico is a bad fit at all in a pressing system. I think perhaps the concern is that he normally operates a bit deeper, hence perhaps "high press" is pushing it.

I think Stoichkov and peak Figo are good fits as well. I like Pat's team as well though although I don't like Kocsis up there by himself.

Question to both @Pat_Mustard and @Enigma_87 / @King Kendrick how do you guys see this game playing out? What will your teams operate like in offensive phases? How much of the ball do you expect?

To me Pat is more set up for a counter, whilst we are more set up to get the lion share of the possession and to me we should have advantage in terms of time on the ball.

I've posted a video of Zico and he has generally always been consistent in his fighting spirit, pressing and engagement in the defensive end. From what I've seen he always seems engaged and consistent in his pressing so I shouldn't be an issue at all - again this is my criteria as visible from a full highlights above - he tracks back, tackles, intercepts from minute 1 till the very end of the game.

To me I feel Kocsis can be isolated up front in the current Pat set up and we can limit the opportunities the opposition will have. Zico used to drop deep but also he occupied the 9.5 position a lot. He is at home either as a AM/SS or classic #10.

Kocsis himself would need someone to combine with and with thoough orthodox wingers the link up is lacking a bit in the final third which considering our defensive set up should be good counter to the posed threat.
I also don't think we lack any ability in the air to have a particular weakness at the back.

 

[Synco]

Gave it narrowly to Pat, even though I think Enigma/KK have superior individual class. (Always feels a bit weird to say so in an all time draft.)

Reasoning: I really like Pat's team cohesion, while on the other side I see slight structural disadvantages whose remedies always seem to create another slight imbalance. Pat's combination of offensive wide threat and powerful midfield three seems exactly what's needed to force the opposition into compensating moves & creating imbalances that can be exploited. Especially on the break.

Undecided about the point of Kocsis as a lone striker, but I guess the overall dynamic may create situations that give him his opportunities to score or play the FWs & CMs on. From what I saw, Kocsis seemed like a forward with quick thinking and very good movement.

That said, I can fully understand when people vote the other way, as Enigma & Kendrick have a really strong team. Plus, Neuer must surely be counted as a factor against the counter threat I've tried to outline.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I like the 4-4-2 and it's certainly more entertaining. In the games I've watched of his, I don't think Zico is a bad fit at all in a pressing system. I think perhaps the concern is that he normally operates a bit deeper, hence perhaps "high press" is pushing it.

I think Stoichkov and peak Figo are good fits as well. I like Pat's team as well though although I don't like Kocsis up there by himself.

Question to both @Pat_Mustard and @Enigma_87 / @King Kendrick how do you guys see this game playing out? What will your teams operate like in offensive phases? How much of the ball do you expect?

We'll generally be playing quite a direct game, with the likes of Suarez and Passarella looking to find our wingers quickly and our B2B players marauding up in support. That said, with us sporting a 4-3-3 vs the opposition's 4-4-2, and fielding two incredibly dynamic ball-winners in B2B roles, and their midfield looking quite direct in nature, I see the game as being fairly end to end with neither team being deprived of the ball for long periods.

As regards Kocsis, granted he's not a strapping target man but I'm still quite confident about his ability to lead the line here given the tidiness of his approach play. I don't think he'll be particularly isolated either - aside from Robbo and Neeskens steaming up in support there's Best who was just as comfortable popping up infield as taking on his man on the outside, as evidenced by his consistently excellent goalscoring returns.

Season	Total Appearances	Goals
1964–65	59	14
1965–66	43	17
1966–67	45	10
1967–68	53	32
1968–69	55	22
1969–70	53	23
1970–71	48	21
1971–72	53	26

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Reasoning: I really like Pat's team cohesion, while on the other side I see slight structural disadvantages whose remedies always seem to create another slight imbalance. Pat's combination of offensive wide threat and powerful midfield three seems exactly what's needed to force the opposition into compensating moves & creating imbalances that can be exploited. Especially on the break.

Undecided about the point of Kocsis as a lone striker, but I guess the overall dynamic may create situations that give him his opportunities to score or play the FWs & CMs on. From what I saw, Kocsis seemed like a forward with quick thinking and very good movement.

Sigh, echo my thoughts almost exactly. Changed my vote just for the awesome Luis Suarez move. Incredible how you don't even feel like someone like Pele is missing.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Good game @Enigma_87 and @King Kendrick .

I only voted in the last few minutes so the result was a pleasant surprise. Now to decide how to fit Pele back into the team

 

[harms]

Speaking of Best's workrate, here's an exemplary performance from him in terms of his defensive contribution.