25 points gained from losing positions

RashyForPM

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A remarkable record. I’ve seen people interpret this in different ways, but for me, it’s straight down the middle. We never wilt when going behind, thus showing lots of bottle. Aside from the obvious fact that it’s gained us 25 points, no Champion team in history has not had the trait of going up a few gears when struggling in matches, to end up winning.

However, we can’t keep starting games in such a lackadaisical manner. Aside from the games we’ve come back, we started worse than poorly against Sheff Utd, Arsenal, Palace, WBA etc, which made us lose points against some of the lesser teams in the PL like them, no disrespect intended. Even in the games we turned around, what’s the point in playing the first halves of games against Fulham, Brighton and Southampton as if we are drunk?

What do people think about this? Imo, it’s a good record and something that has helped us massively, but I can definitely see why people aren’t too comfortable with it too.
 
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roonster09

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What do people think about this?
Depends on how the team is doing overall. If we are winning trophies, then the narrative would be "that's champions mentality, never gives up".

If we don't win anything then it means "we are very poor at the start of the game and players and coaches should get their head from their arse".
 

kouroux

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The reaction is great and always appreciated but going forward, it's not a sustanaible way of playing football if we wanna seriously improve
 

Bwuk

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The reaction is great and always appreciated but going forward, it's not a sustanaible way of playing football if we wanna seriously improve
Pretty much.

We need to stop letting the likes of Brighton go ahead of us.
 

Longshanks

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The daft thing is we actually started quite well, there was a Good tempo to our game we were looking forward we looked sharp. Then a criminal nothing pass from pogba and bang we are one down and Brighton have something to defend and the initiative.

Far to many individual mistakes leading to soft goals, to many players who are mistake prone, fred and pogba two of the worst. We need to stop giving poor sides a leg up because eventually you get caught out and that has been why we are not in the title race.
 

11101

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To me it shows great team spirit and motivation to keep coming back, but poor setup and tactics to continually go behind in the first place.
 

amolbhatia50k

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To me it shows great team spirit and motivation to keep coming back, but poor setup and tactics to continually go behind in the first place.
Yup. Praise and some criticism is required.

Does anyone think a proper holding defensive midfielder would help? I feel runners get away from our midfield too easily in general.
 

VojjE

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To me it shows great team spirit and motivation to keep coming back, but poor setup and tactics to continually go behind in the first place.
It's not that we change tactically when we come out in the second half. To me it seems to be more of a mental thing, when the game is still open they overthink and can't even do the basics right with miss-hit passes galore. Then they show great resillience when their backs are against the wall and they just have to go for it.
 

RashyForPM

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Yup. Praise and some criticism is required.

Does anyone think a proper holding defensive midfielder would help? I feel runners get away from our midfield too easily in general.
I agree with this. He couldn’t stem the tide in the second half once Pogba and Bruno took over, but Bissouma was a level above everyone else in the first half. Defensively solid, biting into challenges and more than tidy on the ball. He can play in a midfield two as well.

People are talking about Ndidi and Rice, but this lad would represent a cheaper option, and as you say, would definitely keep us more solid if we keep starting games poorly, an issue that must be resolved in itself.
 

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The daft thing is we actually started quite well, there was a Good tempo to our game we were looking forward we looked sharp. Then a criminal nothing pass from pogba and bang we are one down and Brighton have something to defend and the initiative.

Far to many individual mistakes leading to soft goals, to many players who are mistake prone, fred and pogba two of the worst. We need to stop giving poor sides a leg up because eventually you get caught out and that has been why we are not in the title race.
Exactly this.

We started well last night. We have too many sloppy players in the team at one time and it costs us often.
 

11101

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It's not that we change tactically when we come out in the second half. To me it seems to be more of a mental thing, when the game is still open they overthink and can't even do the basics right with miss-hit passes galore. Then they show great resillience when their backs are against the wall and they just have to go for it.
Maybe that is true but you bang your head against the wall when you see how we set up. Brighton are near the bottom of the table and play with a sitting 10 and two strikers who like to go out wide. So we sit deep, defending the middle with two holding midfielders, hoping to get them on the counter. A Sunday League coach could see that wouldn't work.
 

tomaldinho1

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It’s been this way all season and adds fuel to the fire on the coaching issue front.

Initial setup & mindset almost always ends up with us chasing the game. Now and then, it’s normal and should be praised but I’d say it’s been an almost weekly occurrence for us.

Personally, until we change how our midfield functions I can’t see how next season is any different. We’ll be top four, maybe even win a minor trophy with some luck, but we’ll be miles away from the elite teams again.
 

Wumminator

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We also have the most goals from substitutes in the league.

Of course we also have concurrently threads saying Ole doesn’t make subs early enough and that he can’t react in a game quickly enough.
 
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A remarkable record. I’ve seen people interpret this in different ways, but for me, it’s straight down the middle. We never wilt when going behind, thus showing lots of bottle. Aside from the obvious fact that it’s gained us 25 points, no Champion team in history has not had the trait of going up a few gears when struggling in matches, to end up winning.

However, we can’t keep starting games in such a lackadaisical manner. Aside from the games we’ve come back, we started worse than poorly against Sheff Utd, Arsenal, Palace, WBA etc, which made us lose points against some of the lesser teams in the PL like them, no disrespect intended. Even in the games we turned around, what’s the point in playing the first halves of games against Fulham, Brighton and Southampton as if we are drunk?

What do people think about this? Imo, it’s a good record and something that has helped us massively, but I can definitely see why people aren’t too comfortable with it too.
Its a fantastic trait to have. It shows this team does have a resilient character.


The next trait it should master is hardly ever falling behind.
 

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The thing is a lot of the time we go down is due to individual errors. How does coaching solve a sloppy pass from Pogba? Or Lindo not being tall enough to head it.

I feel like “coaching” is now this buzzword used to solve all issues when in reality I’m sure the team is being coached, we don’t win games just based on dumb luck over a course of 30 games.
 

ivaldo

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It's more of a positive than a negative. It's far harder to instill the type of stoicism into a team that keeps us reversing or starts than it is to cut out the mistakes. Sometimes it takes no more than a key signing or two.
 

UpWithRivers

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Its nothing to be proud of. Its like when people praise defenders for last ditch sliding tackles. Two or three a season is good but when its all the time its an indication that your positioning is sht and you are always trying to bail yourself out. We need to stop getting in these positions in the first place.
 

OnlyTwoDaSilvas

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I believe we are one more comeback away from matching our record in 12-13, which is the PL record IIRC.

It's both a positive and a negative. Our attitude is solid and going behind doesn't make us crumble, but always conceding first is incredibly worrisome. Particularly in home games against bottom half sides. This needs to tighten up.
 

Striker10

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I just feel we make too many defensive mistakes playing from the back. It shows character but it also shows we start games poorly and esp at home, its cost us a lot. I want to see players angry about it and look at the mood if we didn't score that second. This my gripe with the captain and defense. All season they put us on the back foot and though we defend from the front, we let in some real dodgy goals and we give it away far to much in our final third
 

Pogue Mahone

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Maybe that is true but you bang your head against the wall when you see how we set up. Brighton are near the bottom of the table and play with a sitting 10 and two strikers who like to go out wide. So we sit deep, defending the middle with two holding midfielders, hoping to get them on the counter. A Sunday League coach could see that wouldn't work.
We didn’t do that. Up until they scored we were pressing high up the pitch. They could barely get out of their box, never mind their half. It was the exact opposite of sitting deep, hoping to score on the counter.
 

cyberman

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Its weird. Teams have to concede sometime, we just concede first. I dont think its a big deal for one of the best sides in the league who should be scoring at least 2 a game over a season. Its an outlier in the stats because a top side shouldn't be conceding first so the overall come from behind stats are overwhelmingly dominated by lower level sides who struggle to score that many anyway.
We just give the opposition a goal head start, and if its just the 2 goals needed then we should still come back if we have a top attack. Citys defence is fantastic this season but I would bet they would have a similar record to us if they gave the opposition a goal head start every game.
 

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I think it's very very impressive, although it's a positive and a negative. However I don't feel like we have achieved most of these by really bombarding the opposition, creating lots of chances left right and center, completely playing the game on their half. I feel like we play a bit better, not great either but we then get the goals in and keep it tight at the back. It is impressive nonetheless and Ole and his staff deserve credit for it.
 

groovyalbert

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It's interesting that this trait is exactly what Ole was renowned for during his playing days with us.

Of course, under SAF and bar his final season here, we would only need bailing out a handful of times each season. It now seems to be every other game.

Great attribute to have, but now one the best teams should have to rely on so regularly.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Poor starts have been a huge problem this season. And it’s not a tactical issue because the comebacks invariably feature the same tactics we were using when we went behind.

Yesterday was different in that we started very well. I agree with the post higher up about heinous errors in central midfield costing us more than most. You just don’t see central midfielders at other top clubs giving the ball away so cheaply, in such dangerous areas as Pogba did yesterday (and Fred did the game before).
 

Marwood

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It’s been this way all season and adds fuel to the fire on the coaching issue front.

Initial setup & mindset almost always ends up with us chasing the game. Now and then, it’s normal and should be praised but I’d say it’s been an almost weekly occurrence for us.

Personally, until we change how our midfield functions I can’t see how next season is any different. We’ll be top four, maybe even win a minor trophy with some luck, but we’ll be miles away from the elite teams again.
There was nothing wrong with the initial tactical set up and midset yesterday, it didn't cause the opening goal. Was actually the best start to a game we've had for a while.

We conceded because certain players have characteristics that keep repeating and keep costing us. Pogba giving it away in a dangerous area. You could put a compilation together of him costing us goals by being sloppy.
 

tomaldinho1

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There was nothing wrong with the initial tactical set up and midset yesterday, it didn't cause the opening goal. Was actually the best start to a game we've had for a while.

We conceded because certain players have characteristics that keep repeating and keep costing us. Pogba giving it away in a dangerous area. You could put a compilation together of him costing us goals by being sloppy.
We started fast but can you think of a time we really carved them open? We didn’t have a shot on target first half.

There’s a difference between huffing and puffing but doing very little (which we did first half) and having the right mindset.

The most simple and logical explanation for why the 1st half was so bad compared to the second when we lined up the same way is that it’s a mindset issue. That and Brighton have zero depth so when Trossard went off we took control.
 

Cassidy

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Its weird. Teams have to concede sometime, we just concede first. I dont think its a big deal for one of the best sides in the league who should be scoring at least 2 a game over a season. Its an outlier in the stats because a top side shouldn't be conceding first so the overall come from behind stats are overwhelmingly dominated by lower level sides who struggle to score that many anyway.
We just give the opposition a goal head start, and if its just the 2 goals needed then we should still come back if we have a top attack. Citys defence is fantastic this season but I would bet they would have a similar record to us if they gave the opposition a goal head start every game.
It will bit you in the ass a few times a season for example vs Sheffield United, WBA and in the UCL. You are not always going to be able to come from behind. Its something we need to try and fix next season.

Also we could have easily been 2-0 down, giving opposition a goal and lead can boost their confidence.

Its good we are able to come back and win but its not sustainable if we want to challenge for the title. The good thing is its a clear improvement in the sides confidence and belief as before we would just fold
 

cyberman

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It will bit you in the ass a few times a season for example vs Sheffield United, WBA and in the UCL. You are not always going to be able to come from behind. Its something we need to try and fix next season.

Also we could have easily been 2-0 down, giving opposition a goal and lead can boost their confidence.

Its good we are able to come back and win but its not sustainable if we want to challenge for the title. The good thing is its a clear improvement in the sides confidence and belief as before we would just fold
I understand that. Even if we didnt concede first seemingly every game, we would still have those 3 or 4 games each season where we draw or lose anyway. Thats within the means of the season. Instead of conceding when 1 up and going on to win or conceding at 2 - 0 and the like, we just consistently concede first and its happened that many times that the simple goal scoring average of a top side makes up for it as long as its kept at conceding 1.
 

Glorio

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100% complacency for me. The team reacts to adversity brilliantly but reacts very poorly when things are supposedly in our favour.

Our mentality at the start of most games we should be winning appears to be poor and we almost always start slowly.
This appears to be at it's worst after a good win, and the fact that in most cases we can and do lift our levels after going behind (or when we play against good sides) further proves that there's a chronic issue of complacency about the side.

I remember an interview where Ole said we now need to be able to handle praise, and he's right, even if it's his job to ensure that happens.
 

VeevaVee

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The reaction is great and always appreciated but going forward, it's not a sustanaible way of playing football if we wanna seriously improve
Yup. It’s not even like the reaction in most of these games was balls to the wall need a result stuff. It’s just sort of happened because we’ve got some decent players
 

tomaldinho1

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100% complacency for me. The team reacts to adversity brilliantly but reacts very poorly when things are supposedly in our favour.

Our mentality at the start of most games we should be winning appears to be poor and we almost always start slowly.
This appears to be at it's worst after a good win, and the fact that in most cases we can and do lift our levels after going behind (or when we play against good sides) further proves that there's a chronic issue of complacency about the side.

I remember an interview where Ole said we now need to be able to handle praise, and he's right, even if it's his job to ensure that happens.
I'm in two minds about this because you can point to numerous pressure scenarios this season and we've come up short at every turn. RBL we paid the price for going there to not lose, City in the league cup, Leicester FA cup, when we went top we just imploded and took something stupid like 11 points from a possible 24.

The flip side is historically through Ole's tenure, when there's been genuine media pressure on Ole and a lot of talk about him being sacked if he lose, the team always turn up. City game last year, Everton (first game) this season.
 

CM10

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Generally it's a good trait to react as well as we have to adversity this season but ultimately it's happening way too often against teams we are comprehensively better than.

For all the points we've picked up from losing positions, there are still plenty of instances you can point to where we've dropped points in games we shouldn't have.
 

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Maybe that is true but you bang your head against the wall when you see how we set up. Brighton are near the bottom of the table and play with a sitting 10 and two strikers who like to go out wide. So we sit deep, defending the middle with two holding midfielders, hoping to get them on the counter. A Sunday League coach could see that wouldn't work.
That's not how we played yesterday at all. We started well, had all of the ball and were on the front foot.

Once we conceded the goal, in which Wellbeck had a fair slice of luck, after some sloppiness it seemed to knock us off our stride and we didn't get going again til the second half.

You don't have 60% possession if you're playing on the break.
 

OleBoiii

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Damn, it didn't know it was that rare. 4% chance of turning things around if you're behind at half time are pretty shite odds. It's probably higher for the top teams, but still..
 

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The thing is a lot of the time we go down is due to individual errors. How does coaching solve a sloppy pass from Pogba? Or Lindo not being tall enough to head it.

I feel like “coaching” is now this buzzword used to solve all issues when in reality I’m sure the team is being coached, we don’t win games just based on dumb luck over a course of 30 games.
One of either AWB or Lindelof should have got a challenge on the player or the ball by being positioned better and that is something you can work on.

AWB in particular has deficiencies in defensive positioning and under the high ball. I would assume that these are things the coaches are working with him on and he should be able to improve. If he's still making the same mistakes and doesn't improve at all in a season or two it would be time to ship him out.
 

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It’s a nice stat when you take it at face value, however as others have pointed out, it suggests somewhat of a mentality issue. It’s not like this is solely down to having a slow start in each game either, because that’s not the case most of the time, but we do have lapses in concentration and quite noticeably sink on occasion during games.

It’s a mixture of complacency and lack of confidence, which the management team really need to sort out one way or another.
 

r3idy

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It's good there is some mental strength to come back from losing positions. As some have said you can't always get away with it.

Would like to see us go out and go for the jugular early doors on a few occasions, especially the 'low block' teams so it forces their hand to come out and attack.