25 points gained from losing positions

kouroux

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Damn, it didn't know it was that rare. 4% chance of turning things around if you're behind at half time are pretty shite odds. It's probably higher for the top teams, but still..
I suspected as such but having real numbers is a bit different.
 

paulscholes18

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I agree with this. He couldn’t stem the tide in the second half once Pogba and Bruno took over, but Bissouma was a level above everyone else in the first half. Defensively solid, biting into challenges and more than tidy on the ball. He can play in a midfield two as well.

People are talking about Ndidi and Rice, but this lad would represent a cheaper option, and as you say, would definitely keep us more solid if we keep starting games poorly, an issue that must be resolved in itself.
Keep seeing people wanting him, but I think we would still have the same issues when Pogba doesn’t play, with Bissouma with Fred/ McTominay none of those are that good on the ball. We need a Carrick/ Alonso type someone who can control the game from deep, and Bissouma ain’t that.
 

RashyForPM

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Keep seeing people wanting him, but I think we would still have the same issues when Pogba doesn’t play, with Bissouma with Fred/ McTominay none of those are that good on the ball. We need a Carrick/ Alonso type someone who can control the game from deep, and Bissouma ain’t that.
Bissouma next to Fred or McT would be absolutely pointless, that’s fair. My point was with a Bissouma-Pogba or Bissouma-VdB when we integrate him into the starting 11 next season, all we would need is a giant who does the dirty work (tackling, intercepting, blocking passing lanes). He’s not great on the ball, but he’s tidy and definitely better than both Fred and McT, and we already have technical ability in abundance with Pogba/VdB and Bruno/VdB in midfield.

And finally, imo Bissouma is simply far superior to Fred and McT, and both of them look better next to Pogba than each other as well. Ndidi and Rice would be perfect, but I’d be more than satisfied if we bought this lad too.
 

Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær

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It’s a nice stat when you take it at face value, however as others have pointed out, it suggests somewhat of a mentality issue. It’s not like this is solely down to having a slow start in each game either, because that’s not the case most of the time, but we do have lapses in concentration and quite noticeably sink on occasion during games.

It’s a mixture of complacency and lack of confidence, which the management team really need to sort out one way or another.
Odd of you to suggest it's a mentality issue when we are coming from behind to win regularly. Mentality doesn't seem to be a problem.

Even stranger is your claim that it's to do with confidence as the team clearly, very clearly, show that they are confident in their ability to come back and win based on their patient approach.
 

charlenefan

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The reaction is great and always appreciated but going forward, it's not a sustanaible way of playing football if we wanna seriously improve
well we're in April now and still sat 2nd in the table so I guess it is sustainable to some degree :lol:

it does show good character and resilience etc but I do wish our defenders took more pride in defending the way Shaw half arsed jogged out and didn't even try to block the cross yesterday for example and AWB not for the first time day dreaming at the back post. We really don't make teams earn their goals against us
 

Velvet Revolver

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Depends on how the team is doing overall. If we are winning trophies, then the narrative would be "that's champions mentality, never gives up".

If we don't win anything then it means "we are very poor at the start of the game and players and coaches should get their head from their arse".
This! maybe we should have not been in losing positions in the first place? :)
 

Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær

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The reaction is great and always appreciated but going forward, it's not a sustanaible way of playing football if we wanna seriously improve
This is a great soundbite but tell me how is it unsustainable? We're not doing this with gegenpressing heavy metal football that will run our players into the ground. 25 points from losing positions suggests it's very sustainable.
 

Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær

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well we're in April now and still sat 2nd in the table so I guess it is sustainable to some degree :lol:

it does show good character and resilience etc but I do wish our defenders took more pride in defending the way Shaw half arsed jogged out and didn't even try to block the cross yesterday for example and AWB not for the first time day dreaming at the back post. We really don't make teams earn their goals against us
We tend to give up the same or very similar goals, which is somewhat infuriating.
 

WR10

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Have you watched Bruno play? He's like Cristiano in the sense he relentlessly keeps driving the attack forward. He's constantly demanding balls played forward. With that mentality, you carve things out of thin air more often than not. He has single-handedly saved Ole's job so far.
 

el3mel

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It's a positive in sense of us having great quality and mentality to keep coming back, but the problem is we always go behind because we start games like shit and only wake up after conceding.
 

Zen86

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Odd of you to suggest it's a mentality issue when we are coming from behind to win regularly. Mentality doesn't seem to be a problem.

Even stranger is your claim that it's to do with confidence as the team clearly, very clearly, show that they are confident in their ability to come back and win based on their patient approach.
It’s a mentality problem because it often takes going a goal down for us to actually start playing, often in the closing stages of the game. It’s not that odd.
 

rcoobc

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Think it shows that we lack motiation (have too much fear) to begin with.

In the dying minutes there I was to lose

But it's positive
 

always_hoping

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TBH I find those type of wins more pleasing than comfortable wins though the latter is rare nowadays.

Winning from losing positions, requires leadership, character and both aspects I would have questioned about this group of players before this season

For example last season 1-0 down against the likes Newcastle, Bournemouth, no reaction came as those matches petered out to 1-0 losses.
 

E-mal

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Our center defence needs to defend better. We repeatedly give away goals when there is no danger.
One of our biggest problems going forward is our defence. The lack of pace makes us set up negatively and cant press enough and the Right full back is really not that good either.
 

Irwin99

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It is impressive. I imagine Spurs are the opposite and have thrown away the most points from winning positions :lol:
 

11101

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That's not how we played yesterday at all. We started well, had all of the ball and were on the front foot.

Once we conceded the goal, in which Wellbeck had a fair slice of luck, after some sloppiness it seemed to knock us off our stride and we didn't get going again til the second half.

You don't have 60% possession if you're playing on the break.
We didn’t do that. Up until they scored we were pressing high up the pitch. They could barely get out of their box, never mind their half. It was the exact opposite of sitting deep, hoping to score on the counter.
Yes we did. Fred and Pogba both started the game sitting in front of the centre backs. Their goal came from a bad Pogba pass from that position, and an unopposed cross from one striker out wide to the other coming in from the other flank. Brighton were killing us in the first half because we were defending the wrong area.

We did also have our attackers pressing high, but thats why we often struggle, because it relies on Bruno to link the defence and attack on his own. They are miles apart on the field.
 

VP89

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We start most our games terribly slowly, so this doesn't surprise me!
 

Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær

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It’s a mentality problem because it often takes going a goal down for us to actually start playing, often in the closing stages of the game. It’s not that odd.
Except that wasn't the case yesterday and isn't always the issue. In plenty of these matches we've looked the better team initially only to give up a goal (or two) against the run of play. We then need to summon a ton of mental strength, resilience, etc to come back and win. That's why suggesting there's a mentality problem seems odd to me.
 

Ferguson’s Hairdryer

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A remarkable record. I’ve seen people interpret this in different ways, but for me, it’s straight down the middle. We never wilt when going behind, thus showing lots of bottle. Aside from the obvious fact that it’s gained us 25 points, no Champion team in history has not had the trait of going up a few gears when struggling in matches, to end up winning.

However, we can’t keep starting games in such a lackadaisical manner. Aside from the games we’ve come back, we started worse than poorly against Sheff Utd, Arsenal, Palace, WBA etc, which made us lose points against some of the lesser teams in the PL like them, no disrespect intended. Even in the games we turned around, what’s the point in playing the first halves of games against Fulham, Brighton and Southampton as if we are drunk?

What do people think about this? Imo, it’s a good record and something that has helped us massively, but I can definitely see why people aren’t too comfortable with it too.
it’s great when we go behind against the likes of Brighton, Fulham etc but costs us dearly when we go behind against the likes of Leipzig in a must win CL game.
 

gerdm07

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The thing is a lot of the time we go down is due to individual errors. How does coaching solve a sloppy pass from Pogba? Or Lindo not being tall enough to head it.

I feel like “coaching” is now this buzzword used to solve all issues when in reality I’m sure the team is being coached, we don’t win games just based on dumb luck over a course of 30 games.
On the one hand people say we play to slow and on the other people say we are sloppy. Here pogba was trying to play quick and usually executes well and he didn't put enough pace on the ball. I'm not sure what the answer is because it is a double edged sword.
 

Ibi Dreams

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TBH I find those type of wins more pleasing than comfortable wins though the latter is rare nowadays.

Winning from losing positions, requires leadership, character and both aspects I would have questioned about this group of players before this season

For example last season 1-0 down against the likes Newcastle, Bournemouth, no reaction came as those matches petered out to 1-0 losses.
True, it is often more enjoyable to watch the team fight and come back from a losing position. We are usually at our most exciting when we're chasing the game, and a lot of our classic, vintage moments and matches involve coming back from a losing position.

But yeah, it's extremely annoying how often we've been in that position this season. Unfortunately we do seem to have a careless, lackadaisical streak and it costs us relatively often.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Yes we did. Fred and Pogba both started the game sitting in front of the centre backs. Their goal came from a bad Pogba pass from that position, and an unopposed cross from one striker out wide to the other coming in from the other flank. Brighton were killing us in the first half because we were defending the wrong area.

We did also have our attackers pressing high, but thats why we often struggle, because it relies on Bruno to link the defence and attack on his own. They are miles apart on the field.
They spent almost the entirety of the first 15 minutes camped about 5 yards outside Brighton’s box! Pogba’s sloppy pass that led to their goal was quite possibly the first pass he attempted inside our half.

If you don’t believe me, watch the game again. I’m having an incredibly quiet bank holiday Monday so did exactly that. There’s no way anyone could watch that opening spell and conclude our intention was scoring goals on the counter.
 

Ole'sattheWheel

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We start most our games terribly slowly, so this doesn't surprise me!
I think as well we are prone to becoming complacent when ontop early on.

Yesterday for example we were all over them, then Brighton score against the run of play with their first real chance.

I'm not sure what the solution is to these early lapses, because we either start on the backfoot and concede, or start well and concede a sloppy goal.
Thinking about it, a top class ruthless finisher uptop probably solves that issue
 

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The issue is when we start games strong, miss a couple of good opportunities and then the opponents score a goal from their first serious attack, because the team isn't prepared or shaped properly, making every player trying to adjust themselves, often resulting in a mistake.

I feel that must come down to a lack of tactical preparation in this particular aspect, because it's been consistently happening this season. The fact that even when we play bad, players like Bruno and Rashford provide moments of magic or force our own luck by being positive, so the moment we iron out the mistakes, we'd be a very very dangerous team.

We just look like a team that panics too much in certain situations, either the players can't handle the constant pressure to perform or Ole isn't able to provide them with a structure, in which they can confidently perform in the respective positions, especially when it comes to keeping concentration high and dealing with keeping a higher defensive line.
 

BusbyMalone

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Whilst I would obviously prefer us not to go behind on a regular basis, it’s actually nice as a fan to watch your team go behind and think “no big deal, we’ll come back” I think it was under Jose where when we conceded the first goal I had no hope of us getting a win. I’m sure there were instances where we did indeed get the win, but that was my mindset every time we conceded. Where now it’s the opposite, and both the manager and the players deserve huge credit.

In terms of how it happens, I just think you have to assess it game by game. Sometimes it’s due to us starting games very slowly and carelessly and getting punished for it, or a lot of the times it’s just down to a really, really poor mistake against the run of play. We’re obviously pretty awful at defending set plays, or getting caught out anytime the ball goes airborne (as AWB did yesterday). In the long run, I don’t necessarily think it’s a huge problem, because you would think that those silly mistakes can be eradicated from our game moving forward.

I don’t see it as a mentality problem, which would be a little more difficult to rectify.
 

RedPed

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The positive that I would take from that stat is that it means we are always in a game until the final whistle blows and are capable of handling most kinds of setbacks. It's good to see that players will keep going until the end. Having that self belief has to be a good thing.
 
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The reaction is great and always appreciated but going forward, it's not a sustanaible way of playing football if we wanna seriously improve
Pretty much. It’s great spirit & that’s one thing you’ve got to give Ole, he never gives up & he’s instilled that in our players, but giving your opponent a 1-goal head start in most games isn’t sustainable at all if you want to be a force domestically & in Europe.
 

Harry190

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Like the horse which needs to see another in front of it before it revs up.
 

11101

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They spent almost the entirety of the first 15 minutes camped about 5 yards outside Brighton’s box! Pogba’s sloppy pass that led to their goal was quite possibly the first pass he attempted inside our half.

If you don’t believe me, watch the game again. I’m having an incredibly quiet bank holiday Monday so did exactly that. There’s no way anyone could watch that opening spell and conclude our intention was scoring goals on the counter.
Watch it again and have a look at the positioning of the players. Fred and Pogba were playing just in front of the centre backs. When our high pressing works its ok (first 15 minutes), when it doesnt we end up with a back 6 and a front 4 miles apart (next 30).
 

Statue of Limitations

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It is not luck, it is this never say die spirit that was the norm under SAF - teams knew they hadn't beaten us until the final whistle.
We were uttelry relentless, and whilst we are obviously a little bit away from those peeless sides of the past, it is so satisyfing to see this attitude back in the team.
We are definitely going in the right direction, Ole knows what it is like to be in the middle of that aggressive, hunting attitude we had when trailing, I am sure he will build more facets on to the team to make us serious contenders at home and in Europe again - heck he may yet see us finish 2nd in the League and EL winners this season alone.

I love it.
 

Zen86

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Except that wasn't the case yesterday and isn't always the issue. In plenty of these matches we've looked the better team initially only to give up a goal (or two) against the run of play. We then need to summon a ton of mental strength, resilience, etc to come back and win. That's why suggesting there's a mentality problem seems odd to me.
It’s all well and good when it happens the odd time, but it happens too often. Consistently having to fight back from behind against teams that shouldn’t have gone ahead in the first place signals a problem to me. That or we’re just exceptionally unlucky. Either way, we shouldn’t have to go down to summon a bit of spirit and play our best football, which is exactly how it’s been.
 

Jericholyte2

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It obviously a double-edged sword:

  • Great character to come back from these positions. I’d read that the PL average for points won from losing positions is 8, so it shows a rather unique quality compared to the rest of the league
  • You do however have to ask why we keep falling behind against all of these teams. The same article that had that stat about points gained also noted that, in comparison, City have only ever been behind in FIVE games this season.
We need to stop having this reactive mentality which will (and already has) caught up with us, especially against better opposition.
 

Withnail

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Yes we did. Fred and Pogba both started the game sitting in front of the centre backs. Their goal came from a bad Pogba pass from that position, and an unopposed cross from one striker out wide to the other coming in from the other flank. Brighton were killing us in the first half because we were defending the wrong area.

We did also have our attackers pressing high, but thats why we often struggle, because it relies on Bruno to link the defence and attack on his own. They are miles apart on the field.
Fred and Pogba were the two in a 4231.

That doesn't mean we set up to sit deep and play on the counter against Brighton.

How does a team sitting deep and playing on the counter monopolise possession? It's an oxymoron.
 

kouroux

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This is a great soundbite but tell me how is it unsustainable? We're not doing this with gegenpressing heavy metal football that will run our players into the ground. 25 points from losing positions suggests it's very sustainable.
We aren't competing for the PL because this conceding first thingy lost us many points against average teams. I did precise "if" we wanna compete for serious stuff
 

kouroux

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well we're in April now and still sat 2nd in the table so I guess it is sustainable to some degree :lol:

it does show good character and resilience etc but I do wish our defenders took more pride in defending the way Shaw half arsed jogged out and didn't even try to block the cross yesterday for example and AWB not for the first time day dreaming at the back post. We really don't make teams earn their goals against us
Did you miss what was written after the "if" ?
 

Pogue Mahone

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Watch it again and have a look at the positioning of the players. Fred and Pogba were playing just in front of the centre backs. When our high pressing works its ok (first 15 minutes), when it doesnt we end up with a back 6 and a front 4 miles apart (next 30).
But that’s my point. We didn’t set up to try to play counter-attacking football. And these tactics worked perfectly for 15 minutes. Once Brighton scored (from an individual error on our part) they sat very deep and became more difficult to break down. They’re a well organised team that have caused lots of strong sides a lot of problems.

Second half we played with a bit more intensity and gradually wore them down. Again, the tactics remained the same. At no point did we sit deep and try to pick them off on the break. Just because we played a 4231 doesn’t mean we were limited to counter-attacking football only.