Anybody knows our record with this formation?
3-5-2 formation this season for United?
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
I think for this season its the best one for us. Firstly you have two strikers in the box, it allows you to play a 3 men midfield where you can push both Pogba and Bruno up the pitch without losing much in defensive balance, we now have Telles who gives us an offensive weapon that works well when you have two strikers in the box and then Axel, Maguire and Lindelof are fairly useful on the ball.
I think the benefits;
1. two strikers running riot all game,
2. Pogba and Bruno up the pitch (this is a big thing because Pogba is very dangerous when pushed up and will complement Bruno creatively) and
3. early dangerous crosses into the box from Telles;
far outweigh the drawbacks imo.
It's all well and good with the squad now, but we've just bought Pellestri and have Diallo coming in January, who are both coming up to ages where they'll want to be playing some part in the first team.
Would we play them up top? But then they'd still have Martial, Cavani, Rashford, Greenwood ahead of them. Doubt they can play wing back too.
Would we play them up top? But then they'd still have Martial, Cavani, Rashford, Greenwood ahead of them. Doubt they can play wing back too.
Happy with 3-5-2 against teams that are set up to attack but it's overkill against teams that like to sit in and defend, we shouldn't need to use it all season. The better teams play with more than one formation and we should be no different.
It depends but when you have Pogba and Bruno pushed up, conducting the attack and supplying two dangerous forwards like Martial and Rashford? I don't think so, now we have a fullback that can cross the ball too but I think AWB is the only issue but we could just take a punt on Laird and see how it goes.
Depends on the opposition for me. Chelsea play with 1 striker and attacking wing backs I’m not sure the 3 at the back will work.
Psg sat back defensively and let us get at them, I’m not sure we could do that against most clubs in the PL.
Psg sat back defensively and let us get at them, I’m not sure we could do that against most clubs in the PL.
523 is park the bus for counter-attack, which usually works well against opposition who likes to take possession of the ball, pass it around in their own back half, or even better, pass it inside their own box.
What if your opposition just happy to sit behind the ball for a draw.
What if your opposition just happy to sit behind the ball for a draw.
The formation should be based on the opposition and the players available along the the ability to change the starting formation if needed with substitutions.. This is a basic requirement.. Having the correct formation & tactics are key but they can often be difficult to get right on a regular basis.
I can't see it being the go to formation anyway, we've just signed 2 young wingers and was after Sancho all summer.
Young being the operative word, how soon do you see either of them contributing effectively to justify playing a formation that accommodates them? We didn't get Sancho and we have fantastic depth in central areas so we should utilize that strength for this season and consider things next season depending on what we would have after a few additions. To me the potential benefit of pushing up Pogba to play alongside Bruno and behind a front two of Martial/Cavani and Rashford/Greenwood is more important than a couple of 18year olds still finding their feet and one hasn't even arrived yet.
This has proven to be the formation that can nullify a world class attack so it should be against teams with a very strong attack. I wouldn't trust it when we need to beat a low block. I think it's recency bias that people are saying we have a problem with low blocks because we didn't struggle with that during the restart last season when we played the
4-2-3-1
4-2-3-1
It's not specifically to accommodate them. It reeks of lack of foresight if now suddenly we play 3-5-2 in every game because it works really well in certain scenarios, having just signed a kid for €40 million and another who both play wide. We have the players to be more adventurous than 3-5-2 against teams that don't justify having 7 defence minded players on the field. 4-2-1-3 is still the best formation against types of teams who want to sit in, especially if Axel stays fit because it will allow us to play a higher line without worrying about getting done in behind for pace.
Weird, didn't think we were parking the bus much against PSG during that first half.
Yes, yes, yes. A thousand times yes, for the following reasons.
- 4231 is shite and outdated
- we have no natural top-class wingers so we shouldn't play 433
- we have no all-round full backs (who can both defend and attack) so we shouldn't play 433
- we have good wingback candidates in Telles, AWB, Williams and Shaw
- Dan James would be best suited to being an attacking wingback - he doesn't dribble well but he gets up and down straight lines, has a great engine and, on the left, puts in a decent ball
- we have an abundance of CB from which we can choose three
- we have an abundance of DMs/CMs/AMs from which we can choose three
- 352 / 532 is a counterattacking system - and Ole is a counterattacking coach
- 352 in 'easier' matches allows to be potent on the counter with two CFs (e.g. Rashford and Cavani)
- 532 in 'bigger' games allows us to have one forward tracking back (e.g. Lingard) and one staying up front occupying both of their CBs (e.g. Martial)
Man city used 3 at the back a lot when they last won the title, spurs used it a lot with potchettino, conte uses it, jive has used it a lot over the years, psg use quite often, it can certainly work with the right players in the system against all types of opposition.
Most of our attack come from interception and counter, plus picking up 2nd ball and counter.
Since you mentioned them. Was Conte-Chelsea not base on counter-attack? They had Hazard who caused in-balance within opposition and created space for the team. Spurs - what happened when Spurs lost, or about to lose Erikson?
With 5 at the back, you rely ALOT on your wing back to make the run for you, defensively and offensively. That's why City paid 200m for 4 wingbacks. And what happen when they become injured and tired?
I am not saying 523 is not a bad tactics, just be prepared for the consequence. Guillet mentioned PSG failed to change their system when their front 3 couldn't handle our back 5 - such as putting in a 2nd striker to occupy our 3 CB to create 1-on-1 situation for Mbappe. i.e. there is always a counter-strategy, once you have become predictable...
There is no formation that's attacking or defensive, arguably the best attacking team in Europe plays 3 at the back formation.
It's how you implement it and what manager wants from the team and how good he is at implementing those ideas that matters.
Just like for any formation, you need right players to make it work. We would need CBs who are good on the ball with ability to step up into midfield zones, also CBs who don't look out of place when they have to move to wide positions, something that many CBs don't like, we need good attacking wingbacks too implement this.
I was also thinking this. What happens if we play this way vs Fulham, Burnley or WBA and always conceded the ball to them. I think one of the top teams should try it out. The opposition can’t just keep the ball for 90 mins!!
The proper test of the 3-5-2 against teams sitting deep would for me be this lineup:
---------Rashford-------Cavani------------
---------------------Bruno-----------------------
Telles-----Pogba-----Fred---------James
------Shaw---Maguire--Tuanzebe---
It's the most plausible 3-5-2 lineup we could play and still have actual width (James for Wan-Bissaka, Telles can obviously cross a ball) and a target (Cavani), and instead of McTominay to break up play it's got Pogba to create, but with an extra CM behind him and a mobile partner instead of the ponderous Matic.
It's not crazy to think this lineup could be solid and worst case we stay solid for an hour, don't concede and some games we need to take off a CB on the hour for an attacker in the form of VDB (diamond) or one of Greenwood, or Martial to make it a front 3.
Shaw is comfortable in-field, which makes sense as he's a better passer than wide attacker, but we would also need Tuanzebe to be fairly offensively useful on the right, or play Maguire there and Axel or Lindelof centrally. Lindelof can play there offensively but not defensively since he seems to have consistent trouble against strikers in larger spaces, which is not surprising since smart but physically questionable CBs like him often end up in the middle of a 3 a la Conor Coady.
---------Rashford-------Cavani------------
---------------------Bruno-----------------------
Telles-----Pogba-----Fred---------James
------Shaw---Maguire--Tuanzebe---
It's the most plausible 3-5-2 lineup we could play and still have actual width (James for Wan-Bissaka, Telles can obviously cross a ball) and a target (Cavani), and instead of McTominay to break up play it's got Pogba to create, but with an extra CM behind him and a mobile partner instead of the ponderous Matic.
It's not crazy to think this lineup could be solid and worst case we stay solid for an hour, don't concede and some games we need to take off a CB on the hour for an attacker in the form of VDB (diamond) or one of Greenwood, or Martial to make it a front 3.
Shaw is comfortable in-field, which makes sense as he's a better passer than wide attacker, but we would also need Tuanzebe to be fairly offensively useful on the right, or play Maguire there and Axel or Lindelof centrally. Lindelof can play there offensively but not defensively since he seems to have consistent trouble against strikers in larger spaces, which is not surprising since smart but physically questionable CBs like him often end up in the middle of a 3 a la Conor Coady.
This season: 2-1 PSG (away)
Last season:
- Europa League: 1-0 Partizan (away), 1-1 Club Bruges (away)
- FA Cup: 6-0 Tranmere, 1-3 Chelsea
- EFL Cup: 2-1 Chelsea (away), 1-0 Man City (2nd leg)
- PL: 1-1 Liverpool (home), 0-2 LIverpool (away) 3-3 Sheff United (away, changed formation at half-time when 0-1) 2-0 Chelsea (away) 2-0 Man City (home)
5-2-3 is, but 3-5-2 is not parking the bus. The wing back's job is playing as a midfielder not a defender. You can also push the center back to help the attack like Sheffield utd did last season. Shaw and Tunzebe are perfect for that role, Telles is also perfect for left wing back, but the only concern is AWB's ability to attack.
What if opposition just happy to sit behind the ball? Well, it's not that hard to crack them with creative midfielders and potent strikers. At least 3 attackers have a free role without thinking to track back when the opponent launch a counter attack.
Do we have that creative midfielders and potent strikers? Of course Bruno, Pogba, VdB, Rashford, Martial, Cavani, and Greenwood are all above average for that role.
So it's depend on wing back position now, not many footballers can master that position.
4-2-3-1 is not bad formation either, but only Fred and McTominay could work on that midfield. Pogba and Matic won't switch into fullbacks in a very fast counter attack, our CBs is also affraid to leave his position to protect the wide area. We really need to sign a strong DM to solve that problem.
If Fred can be LB and LIndeloef DM, per recent thought patterns on here, why not Cavani at WB?
Atalanta play a back 3 and score a lot of goals. With any formation its about application. You can a defensive 4 3 3 and you can play an attacking 3 5 2.
Attacks tend to build from winning possession, yes.
I can’t help but think that this is possibly the way forward for now.
It comes across as defensive on the face of it but certainly for the next few weeks/months, I think it suits us better.
We could probably afford to play slightly more forward thinking midfielders because the compensation is behind in the form of 3 CBs.
However, this will only work with some attacking intent and support from out wide. I have no doubt Telles will provide that on the left but not sure AWB will be quite the same, although he might gain the confidence to do this with less defensive duties.
It comes across as defensive on the face of it but certainly for the next few weeks/months, I think it suits us better.
We could probably afford to play slightly more forward thinking midfielders because the compensation is behind in the form of 3 CBs.
However, this will only work with some attacking intent and support from out wide. I have no doubt Telles will provide that on the left but not sure AWB will be quite the same, although he might gain the confidence to do this with less defensive duties.
Thanks. Definitely the way to go against top teams from this
How is a 3rd CB and relying more on Awb to create going to help break down teams that sit back?
Wan Bissaka doesn't have to bomb forward and create, he can always tuck into midfield and offer more freedom for someone like Pogba to venture forward.
I don't know how that would work. I'm speaking based on what I've seen and what we will keep seeing when we play this formation. Every time we played 3 defenders Awb if he wasn't defending always bombed forward to create. That's not going to change
I’ve seen this post or similar almost verbatim on here for at least 5 years going back to Van Gaals time about how the players/squad (By this stage different players/squads) just don’t suit 4231/433 but perfectly suits 352. And if we just switched to that formation all our problems would instantly disappear.
Here’s the problem Van Gaal initially signed players to play 352 and used it quite often but it didn’t work out as he’d hoped so he abandoned it for 433.
Mourinho used it a lot and at one point it seemed like he was thinking about switching permanently but then he too abandoned the idea when it wasn’t working well and went back to 433/4231.
Solskjaer has also employed the formation fairly regularly as well. But his chase of Sancho and signing of two young wingers suggest he’s planning on sticking with a back 4.
What does this tell us?
Which top sides actually enjoy continued success using 352 or variations there of?
Wan Bissaka a good candidate to play as a wing back? Ok
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We can't be playing 3-5-2 against PL teams that play a low block, this formation only serves us well when we set up like the underdog and look to hit teams on the counter.
Ole needs to figure out a formation and lineup that can 8-9 times out of 10 beat the Burnleys, Palaces et al.
Ole needs to figure out a formation and lineup that can 8-9 times out of 10 beat the Burnleys, Palaces et al.
Surely with the right wing backs you can easily counter low black by getting behind teams from out wide if you have very good attacking fullbacks or old fashion 442 type out and out wingers that have good work rate, stamina and defensively sound like valencia, navas or a Milner in their prime.
We have a good diverse squad let's not have a formation set in stone, let's be flexible. The only thing I want Ole to do is desist from 4-2-3-1 but if he has to play it do not do it with Pogba in a double pivot.
To be fair we looked good with a 3-5-2 and a 4-2-3-1 in the PSG game, I doubt our formation will even be set in stone for an entire 90 minutes.
Yes definitely, if for no other reason than we have looked so average and disjointed with the 4231.
It's clear Ole wants us to press, counter as much as possible and he has little interest in a possession heavy game. Whether or not you agree with this, 352 suits us well now we have a wing back who can actually attack. If AWB can add a bit more to his game there, we aren't going to be a million miles away.
For all the talk about needing more CBs, the Tues game showed us how it's more about a system than individual skill levels. As long as we are compact enough and have the right work rate, we will at least be very difficult to play against and always pose a threat on the break with this setup. I expect we'll see Cavani in for the banned Martial and Maguire coming in for Lindelof but otherwise I think that will be the team versus Chelsea & I think it'll work well and get us a solid win against them unless they change their tactics.
It's clear Ole wants us to press, counter as much as possible and he has little interest in a possession heavy game. Whether or not you agree with this, 352 suits us well now we have a wing back who can actually attack. If AWB can add a bit more to his game there, we aren't going to be a million miles away.
For all the talk about needing more CBs, the Tues game showed us how it's more about a system than individual skill levels. As long as we are compact enough and have the right work rate, we will at least be very difficult to play against and always pose a threat on the break with this setup. I expect we'll see Cavani in for the banned Martial and Maguire coming in for Lindelof but otherwise I think that will be the team versus Chelsea & I think it'll work well and get us a solid win against them unless they change their tactics.
Its definitely our best formation but I don't think it works against every team, but with the players we have it gives us a great starting point in any game. At times during the psg game we were playing with 3 up front, other times 5 at the back. Other times we were nearly transitioning into 343. Its about the players we have now, we can play a good few different ways and very useful to be able to transition in and out of different formations during different phases of the game.
The 352 is good enough to be creative and attacking but it needs a flexibility in who we play.
When we play a team that sit back we need a CDM that can play within a back 3 rather than a full 3 CB'S.
Mctomminay is looking like he might grow in to this. Our links with a player like Dennis Zakaria shows this might happen also. As I've studied LVG tactics, he was going to do this with a player like Blind in his 3rd season.
Kalvin Phillips is someone that is looking like a player who does this for Leeds and should be doing it for England soon. Another player is Fabinho for Liverpool.
It gives a good idea about what player we need in a back 3 to be defensive when needed but attacking when needed to be and have a CDM that's flexible and fluid in both positions he needs to take up.
It allows us from going to 5 at the back to just 3 at the back whether it's the fullbacks/wingbacks that get forward, leaving the CDM back or the CDM himself goes forward leaving a fullback at the back.
That allows us to have a fluid back 3 depending on who attacks, leaving someone to cover their positions when they do.
For example we saw Tuenzebe as a RB from RCB at times when AWB got forward and the same with Luke Shaw who moved from LCB to LB when Telles got forward. We need to have a CDM that can cover the central position when both fullbacks get forward.
When we play a team that sit back we need a CDM that can play within a back 3 rather than a full 3 CB'S.
Mctomminay is looking like he might grow in to this. Our links with a player like Dennis Zakaria shows this might happen also. As I've studied LVG tactics, he was going to do this with a player like Blind in his 3rd season.
Kalvin Phillips is someone that is looking like a player who does this for Leeds and should be doing it for England soon. Another player is Fabinho for Liverpool.
It gives a good idea about what player we need in a back 3 to be defensive when needed but attacking when needed to be and have a CDM that's flexible and fluid in both positions he needs to take up.
It allows us from going to 5 at the back to just 3 at the back whether it's the fullbacks/wingbacks that get forward, leaving the CDM back or the CDM himself goes forward leaving a fullback at the back.
That allows us to have a fluid back 3 depending on who attacks, leaving someone to cover their positions when they do.
For example we saw Tuenzebe as a RB from RCB at times when AWB got forward and the same with Luke Shaw who moved from LCB to LB when Telles got forward. We need to have a CDM that can cover the central position when both fullbacks get forward.
For the record, I don't think any other formation would've been more effective with the approach we/Ole presented today. But with no natural wide players we should be playing wing backs. Definitely need to get Telles involved as soon as possible.
Maguire stepping into midfield could add some passing ability to McTominay&Fred combo. Definitely worth a try.
To be honest I don't see how 3/5 at the back is more defensive than any other formation with current resources.
Maguire stepping into midfield could add some passing ability to McTominay&Fred combo. Definitely worth a try.
To be honest I don't see how 3/5 at the back is more defensive than any other formation with current resources.
James is suited to being a wingback, as are Telles, Fosu-Mensah, Laird and (assuming he comes back) Dalot.