It's funny how people argue against this formation as being too defensive and yet we lacked far more of an attacking threat yesterday with ole's beloved 4231 formation.
3-5-2 formation this season for United?
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
- Start date
DDG
AWB-McTominay-Maguire-Shaw-Telles
van de Beek----Fred
Bruno
Cavani +1
It's the way I'd play next game.AWB-McTominay-Maguire-Shaw-Telles
van de Beek----Fred
Bruno
Cavani +1
- Fred and van de Beek played very good together, but they are too weak defensively and need protection
- McTominay looked very comfortable in RCB position. He can step up into midfield if needed to fight in the air (Fred and Donny biggest weakness)
- Maguire can also step forward and provide some passing from the deep
- Telles crossing is a new weapon, it's so effective I'd give him more freedom
- Cavani to occupy defenders and make runs
Martial should be that plus 1. Rashford isn't good at coming deep and holding up play which will be needed
We must adjust the formation according to which of our players are available, and who our opponent is. Against most bottom teams, it will be to defensive.
There is no such thing as defensive / offensive formation. It all depends on how you use it.
For example, you can play 4-4-2 but tell the strikers to chase ball in midfield, and wingers to attack, but fullbacks and central midfielders stay back. So basically you have 4 attacking players.
You can also tell wing backs in 3-5-2 to attack. And one of midfielders for example Fred. That means you have 6 attacking players, even if you play 3 at the back compared to 2 CBs in standard formation.
3-5-2 can be very offensive.
Push the two wingbacks up and have the CAM push up to support the two CFs. That's three around the box and two ready to cross, stretching the okay and keeping their FBs wide, making more space for our front three.
3-5-2 isn't what you'd call 'expressive', but it's very functional and can be used to transition from a 5-3-2 without the ball into a 3-2-5 with the ball (if we're aggressive).
We need to get rid of McFred for mid table and relegation fodder.
——————————————DDG——————————————
——Lindelof———————Varane——————Maguire——
AWB———Bruno————-Donny————Pogba———Shaw
———————Greenwood————Ronaldo—————————
This should satisfy Ole's safety first approach.
——————————————DDG——————————————
——Lindelof———————Varane——————Maguire——
AWB———Bruno————-Donny————Pogba———Shaw
———————Greenwood————Ronaldo—————————
This should satisfy Ole's safety first approach.
It is not the formation that is the main issue. It is the lack of "structure" in the team. I think Ole's problem is that he is tunnel visioned in this. He sees only one way to go forward and that is his way and though it does not succeed he is going to play his way until he understands that his way was the wrong way. You give this team to someone even like Potter and he will get them to play much better than what we are playing now. With the same team we have.
Ole will refuse a PL title if it requires a formation not named 4231.
AWB as a wing back would be a sight to behold, and not a pretty one.
It doesn't matter how many CBs you play and hope they take responsibility for the lack of defensive ability of Vdb Pog and Bruno. That's not going to work.
You'll still either find one of the CBs
stepping out and trying to get a move going in midfield or one of the 3 midfielders dropping deep and doing the same.
3 at the back can be successful with top teams, just look at how conte uses it and wins things and now tuchel with Chelsea, a lot of top teams don’t use it because it means having 1 less attacking player on the pitch and our attack is our best position with the best squad depth so I can’t see us sacrificing one of them to play an extra defender. The top teams in Europe mainly play a 4-3-3 but that’s with top coaches who know how to implement it, also all the top teams except us have a world class DM to allow them to play 4-3-3.
Well if 5 defenders are not enough then we've already given the initiative to whoever are opponent happens to be, which is exactly whats happening now with mcfred. Midfielders cannot be defending the defenders.
We have to work with what we have. No team has an outstanding player in every position bar the oil clubs.
I think a 3-5-2 in attack and 4-3-3 in defence, with Shaw being the defender that pushes forward and AWB tucking in when attacking.
Seems ambitious but it’s been deployed successfully in the past, Mourinho for a while would play like that. Pep did it at one point with Barca as well.
There is no point persisting with pushing AWB up the field, he is useless in attack, he is a defender only.
Seems ambitious but it’s been deployed successfully in the past, Mourinho for a while would play like that. Pep did it at one point with Barca as well.
There is no point persisting with pushing AWB up the field, he is useless in attack, he is a defender only.
————————————————DDG——————————————
———AWB——Lindelof———Varane———Maguire———————
Greenwood———Bruno———Donny———Pogba———Shaw
———————————————Ronaldo—————————————
??
For 3-5-2 to work, we need the following personnel
Centre backs:
The best teams that play 3 at the back usually have a 3 very solid defenders who are able to hold their ground 1v1, this is because on counters, they would be regularly exposed without full backs support. They would also need to have very good skills in building up from the back and knowledge on when to bomb forward and assist midfield in building up and sometimes their wing back on overloads. You would also need to have at least 5-6 CB in the team to have enough cover for injuries
Squad rating: poor (Maguire and Varane, no one else is capable enough to play the 3rd center back, except maybe Shaw, but he would be way better used as a left wingback). CBs not good at building up from the back or overloads. No cover for injuries.
Wing backs:
Need to be tireless and have fantastic distribution, able to switch play, create from deep as well as having capacity to stretch defenses to the byline.
Squad rating: poor (only Shaw qualifies)
Midfield Trio:
Probably with this formation you would need only 1 really defensive midfielder and the other two should likely be box to box or attacking midfielders who can be relied on to support the attack or cover the wing backs to defend when required. Basically midfielders need to be very aware on holes to plug when defending or finding half space in attacking zones. Attacking midfielders also need to be able to drift wide to support wing backs.
Squad rating: average (could possible work with Fred, Bruno, Pogba)
Forwards:
Requires 2 very active forwards who can either drop deep or run channels at times. Must be able to work in tandem and press from the front.
Squad rating: average (we don't have any established striker pairings, most of our forwards are inside forwards - Martial, Greenwood, Rashford or out and out strikers like CR7, EC21)
Overall Rating: Poor. IMHO we don't have the personnel for 3-5-2 due to lack of solid centre backs, wing backs and good striker parings. Also for this to be effective, there must be a philosophy to press from the front, which we only seem to be doing sporadically.
Centre backs:
The best teams that play 3 at the back usually have a 3 very solid defenders who are able to hold their ground 1v1, this is because on counters, they would be regularly exposed without full backs support. They would also need to have very good skills in building up from the back and knowledge on when to bomb forward and assist midfield in building up and sometimes their wing back on overloads. You would also need to have at least 5-6 CB in the team to have enough cover for injuries
Squad rating: poor (Maguire and Varane, no one else is capable enough to play the 3rd center back, except maybe Shaw, but he would be way better used as a left wingback). CBs not good at building up from the back or overloads. No cover for injuries.
Wing backs:
Need to be tireless and have fantastic distribution, able to switch play, create from deep as well as having capacity to stretch defenses to the byline.
Squad rating: poor (only Shaw qualifies)
Midfield Trio:
Probably with this formation you would need only 1 really defensive midfielder and the other two should likely be box to box or attacking midfielders who can be relied on to support the attack or cover the wing backs to defend when required. Basically midfielders need to be very aware on holes to plug when defending or finding half space in attacking zones. Attacking midfielders also need to be able to drift wide to support wing backs.
Squad rating: average (could possible work with Fred, Bruno, Pogba)
Forwards:
Requires 2 very active forwards who can either drop deep or run channels at times. Must be able to work in tandem and press from the front.
Squad rating: average (we don't have any established striker pairings, most of our forwards are inside forwards - Martial, Greenwood, Rashford or out and out strikers like CR7, EC21)
Overall Rating: Poor. IMHO we don't have the personnel for 3-5-2 due to lack of solid centre backs, wing backs and good striker parings. Also for this to be effective, there must be a philosophy to press from the front, which we only seem to be doing sporadically.
I’d go with this when defending:
————————DDG
AWD—Maguire—Varane—Shaw
Bruno—Fred—Donny
Greenwood—Ronaldo—Pogba
And when attacking, it would look like this:
———————DDG
——AWB—Maguire—Varane
Bruno—Fred—Donny—Pogba—Shaw
——Greenwood——Ronaldo
I am a big fan of the 3-5-2 personally. I think at OT, we could get away with Shaw at LCB and Rashford and Sancho as the wing-backs, with a midfield three of Fernandes, Pogba and McTominay and two of Ronaldo/Cavani/Greenwood/Martial at CF.
In tougher away games, you could then go compact and have Shaw and AWB at wing-back, with Varane, Maguire, Lindelof at CB
In tougher away games, you could then go compact and have Shaw and AWB at wing-back, with Varane, Maguire, Lindelof at CB
Maybe swap AWB for Dalot - I think he’s better going forward as a WB (though worse at defending).
Also swap DvDb for Fred or McT.. two holding midfielders to Dvdb seems like going from one extreme to another (too much defence to none).
Whatever formation we use, we’ve got to get a concerted work ethic or drop players, regardless of talent. I see City, Chelsea and Liverpool lose the ball and it’s “all hands to the pump” to close the opposition down and try to win it back asap or at least slow them down/make them play it back. Even if you can’t get to the player, sprint back and get bodies there. People laugh at Ole talking about “commitment” and think thats all he has - putting that aside (separate thread), some of our players are too lethargic (some might say lazy).
I don't think we should play 352, but this is a massively pessimistic view.
Defenders : Does Lindelof not exist any more ? I know he is a bit of a Caf whipping boy but he is a decent defender who could certainly play in a back 3.
Wing backs : Shaw qualifies, yes, but I think Dalot could potentially do a job there. AWB, no.
Midfield : I think our squad fits this better than the two man midfield we currently employ.
Forwards : dont feel this formation makes the best of our inside forwards and wide players, but if you can't make a 2 man striker pairing out of the attacking players we have, there is surely something amiss.
3-5-2 has many flaws.
We don't have a right wing back for starters. So you're either trying to make AWB a third centre back, or have him as a fish out of water out wide. Or try and convert a winger to the position.
Failing AWB moving inside, then it means Lindelof has to start most games. We've whinged for years about that. Plus there's next to no reliable cover behind the 3. Bailly and Jones can't stay fit, they simply can't.
You're also removing our strength of wingers, when Rashy is back, if/when Sancho is up to speed, and Greenwood.
Yes you can play two strikers, which would be another route in, but you lose the width.
I'm just glad I'm not Ole, as the pressure is huge now with this playing cast.
It'll certainly make or break him, although they did just bang him on a 3 year deal - which we always seem to do at the wrong time.
We don't have a right wing back for starters. So you're either trying to make AWB a third centre back, or have him as a fish out of water out wide. Or try and convert a winger to the position.
Failing AWB moving inside, then it means Lindelof has to start most games. We've whinged for years about that. Plus there's next to no reliable cover behind the 3. Bailly and Jones can't stay fit, they simply can't.
You're also removing our strength of wingers, when Rashy is back, if/when Sancho is up to speed, and Greenwood.
Yes you can play two strikers, which would be another route in, but you lose the width.
I'm just glad I'm not Ole, as the pressure is huge now with this playing cast.
It'll certainly make or break him, although they did just bang him on a 3 year deal - which we always seem to do at the wrong time.
3 at the back stops any idea of McFred. It doesn't really resolve anything else.
I'm no expert in formations, but isn't 3-5-2 used to maximize the use of wingbacks which we don't have?
I’d be wary of this purely because our coaches have no real history of using this formation regularly. It’s been quite successful for us in one offs against attacking teams like PSG and City (iirc on the latter) but our issue is controlling and dominating much weaker teams.
Someone like Conte knows this system inside out but the formation really isn’t the issue, it’s more the lack of cohesion on the ball and, now I think about it, we have played the best when Ole used the diamond earlier on in his tenure. That said, 4231 should produce attacking football, I don’t think we need to overcomplicate by now going to 532.
Someone like Conte knows this system inside out but the formation really isn’t the issue, it’s more the lack of cohesion on the ball and, now I think about it, we have played the best when Ole used the diamond earlier on in his tenure. That said, 4231 should produce attacking football, I don’t think we need to overcomplicate by now going to 532.
Shaw can be very handy in wing back role since he gives attacking outlet without much worry about defending he is well capable. But awb not sure he can play such role.
Not to mention we have four actually useable centre-backs and one of those is Eric Bailly. A formation that requires three of them is not the greatest idea.
It also means that out of Ronaldo, Cavani, Rashford, Greenwood, and Sancho only two can play at any given time, as opposed to three of them in a 4-2-3-1. And that is if you move Bruno to the '5' even though he'd be probably more effective as part of the 2.
Indeed, good points all round.
This squad just isn't suited to playing 352 and I've no idea why anyone would want us to specifically play 352 when the vast majority of successful teams past and present use variations of 433/4231. Simply changing formation won't change a great deal in itself.
3 centers formation is Conte's favorite style.
--------------------------- De Gea --------------------------------
----- Lindelof ------- Varane ------ Maguire ----------
AWB ---------------- Mctominay ----------------- Shaw
---------------- Bruno ------------ Pogba -------------------------
------- Cavani/Greenwood ----------- Ronaldo ----------
--------------------------- De Gea --------------------------------
----- Lindelof ------- Varane ------ Maguire ----------
AWB ---------------- Mctominay ----------------- Shaw
---------------- Bruno ------------ Pogba -------------------------
------- Cavani/Greenwood ----------- Ronaldo ----------
We have better forwards than we do defenders, why would we want more defenders on the park?
All i know is that bruno and pogna cannot both start. With both of them our midfield gets overrun.
Either its mcfred in the middle with pogba on the left or we bench pogba and break up mcfred.
Either its mcfred in the middle with pogba on the left or we bench pogba and break up mcfred.
Sancho? Rashford (when he’s back)?
I can see us matching up Atlanta.
Dalot and Telles both seem more comfortable as wingbacks also.
DDG, Varane, Maguire, Lindelof, Telles, Dalot, Fred, Mctominay, Fernandes, Ronaldo, Cavani.
Dalot and Telles both seem more comfortable as wingbacks also.
DDG, Varane, Maguire, Lindelof, Telles, Dalot, Fred, Mctominay, Fernandes, Ronaldo, Cavani.
In possession :
The key is that the wing backs push high and wide, particularly sancho. If we can congest the middle and isolate sancho with the full back, we'll see the best of him.
Ultimately, ronaldo isn't a wide player, and he needs more support up front. A formation change will be the only way to improve the team performance when ronaldo is on the pitch in games where we dominate possession.
Ronaldo - Cavani
Shaw - Pogba - McT - Bruno - Sancho
Maguire - Varane - Wan Bissaka
Out of possession :Shaw - Pogba - McT - Bruno - Sancho
Maguire - Varane - Wan Bissaka
Cavani
Ronaldo - Pogba - Bruno - Sancho
McT
Shaw - Maguire - Varane - Wan Bissaka
Rashford/Greenwood/Martial to rotate up top. Lingard and DVB to rotate with pogba and bruno.Ronaldo - Pogba - Bruno - Sancho
McT
Shaw - Maguire - Varane - Wan Bissaka
The key is that the wing backs push high and wide, particularly sancho. If we can congest the middle and isolate sancho with the full back, we'll see the best of him.
Ultimately, ronaldo isn't a wide player, and he needs more support up front. A formation change will be the only way to improve the team performance when ronaldo is on the pitch in games where we dominate possession.
If Sancho and Rashford play on top quality, left winger in first squad.
But right winger, Greenwood is the first candidate for me.
"Somethings got to give."
———————————————DDG—————————————————
————Lindelof——————Varane—————Maguire——————
Dalot————Donny————Bruno————Rashford————Shaw
——————————Ronaldo————Cavani————————————
Mcfred has failed.
Pogba and Bruno cannot play together.
Mata and Matic don't have the legs.
AWB is shit going forward.
Greenwood can play instead of Ronaldo or Cavani, both of them need to be rotated.
———————————————DDG—————————————————
————Lindelof——————Varane—————Maguire——————
Dalot————Donny————Bruno————Rashford————Shaw
——————————Ronaldo————Cavani————————————
Mcfred has failed.
Pogba and Bruno cannot play together.
Mata and Matic don't have the legs.
AWB is shit going forward.
Greenwood can play instead of Ronaldo or Cavani, both of them need to be rotated.
I’ve been crying out for us to move to this formation for a good few weeks now and today was the perfect day to play this way against the free scoring liverfool. I don’t understand how Ole couldn’t see it
3-5-2 vs Tottenham
We look more balanced now.
But what happens to rashford, sancho and pogba ?
But what happens to rashford, sancho and pogba ?
Yes. With Conte at the helm. We can play 6-9-0 and still be shit with Ole
We have too many attacking players to make this our go to formation. Should have invested in another centerback and attacking wingback instead of keeping Lingard, DVdb and Martial and buying Sancho. If we win this game, I expect ole to use it a lot more 
If we play this formation Telles should be playing ahead of Shaw on our left.
Telles can be more advanced because he has cover behind him Which will allow him to whip in those crosses. Especially with cavani and ronaldo in he box.
Telles can be more advanced because he has cover behind him Which will allow him to whip in those crosses. Especially with cavani and ronaldo in he box.